Rumours doing the rounds

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

He's clearly a very gifted player and he should be in the side . He's a big lad but if he needs an enforcer to enable him to play then that's worth it ?

Witts was never a big tackler , he didn't need to be

[J R Hartley]

He's clearly a very gifted player and he should be in the side . He's a big lad but if he needs an enforcer to enable him to play then that's worth it ?

Witts was never a big tackler , he didn't need to be

If Whitts could tackle and had a bit more speed hertonf around the pitch he would have been playing for a top 6 Prem Club. That’s what used to do my head in people moan about he couldn’t tackle or get “stuck in” as his usual detractors would say but if he could he wouldn’t have been playing in the championship!!!

[J R Hartley]

Interesting point this, it's a comparison I'd been thinking about myself. I was actually sad enough to go back to April 2017 on here (around page 930) to check it out and the mixed views on Whitts as he came to the end of his time here were very similar to those on Colwill now. I wondered if the same posters were sticking up for both and the previous two posters in this thread both popped up. Older Blue started a thread defending Whitts and JR Hartley was calling Warnock an 'utter c**t' for subbing him against Newcastle.

Out of character but I said something quite interesting, looking back. I pointed out that Whitts had been tried in a number of positions in the previous season or two without really convincing in any but when he got criticised for a poor performance posters would jump in and say it was because he was being played out of position. It seems to be a recurring theme with Colwill now too. There were the same 'lazy/ lethargic/ half-hearted' criticisms aimed at both players by some posters too.

I'm not sure how a lad just out of his teens can be seen in the same way as a man in his thirties coming to the end of his career but, both positively and negatively, there do seem to be some similarities here, to be fair to Sneggy.

I don’t need to go searching back 930 pages to remember because it still rankles with me.

Warnock was an utter c**t for the way he brought him off in that Newcastle game. Rushed him off as part of a double substitution when mostly everyone knew it was going to be the last time they would see him in a City shirt.

If anyone deserved a slow substitution and a wave goodbye it was the man who had given us over a decade of service and arguably our best player in the modern era. A model professional and universally well liked guy by his peers and fans. Warnock absolutely shit on his parade on what was a nothing end of season game for us.’

Even the great man himself got emotional and he rarely showed emotion even in all the great moments he gave us.

So, yeah, I still stand by it. Warnock is an Utter c**t..

[the other bob wilson]

I read somewhere in the last couple of days that John Toshack once said that you need four of a football team to be piano players and seven to be piano lifters - I would argue that at Cardiff City in recent years, that balance has sometimes been eight three or even nine two.

Thankfully, the game is changing slowly, but having seen literally hundreds of limited get stuck in merchants in City colours down the years, I can never remember a manager saying great at what he does, but he really needs more flair and skill to his game. On the other hand, when we do get someone with a bit of flair and skill, you can guarantee that there'll be people in the crowd, or even in the dug out, blasting them for not doing enough of what gets called "the dirty work" - it's always been the case that so many at Cardiff City want their piano players to do the lifting as well.

[sneggyblubird]

My post was not about Whitts' ability it was about the fact that he sometimes went missing in games. As pointed out by others he would have been a top prem player but for this alone I think. My view is at the moment Colwill can suffer from this too as the game can sometimes pass him by but because of his age am not part of the clamour to see him start every game. Polo's view on that sub by Warnock is spot on in my view and no way to treat a player that was and is of legendary status.

[Harry Paget Flashman]

I read somewhere in the last couple of days that John Toshack once said that you need four of a football team to be piano players and seven to be piano lifters - I would argue that at Cardiff City in recent years, that balance has sometimes been eight three or even nine two.

Thankfully, the game is changing slowly, but having seen literally hundreds of limited get stuck in merchants in City colours down the years, I can never remember a manager saying great at what he does, but he really needs more flair and skill to his game. On the other hand, when we do get someone with a bit of flair and skill, you can guarantee that there'll be people in the crowd, or even in the dug out, blasting them for not doing enough of what gets called "the dirty work" - it's always been the case that so many at Cardiff City want their piano players to do the lifting as well.

In coming Willie Boland love in from Sludge.

[Loramski]

I read somewhere in the last couple of days that John Toshack once said that you need four of a football team to be piano players and seven to be piano lifters - I would argue that at Cardiff City in recent years, that balance has sometimes been eight three or even nine two.

Thankfully, the game is changing slowly, but having seen literally hundreds of limited get stuck in merchants in City colours down the years, I can never remember a manager saying great at what he does, but he really needs more flair and skill to his game. On the other hand, when we do get someone with a bit of flair and skill, you can guarantee that there'll be people in the crowd, or even in the dug out, blasting them for not doing enough of what gets called "the dirty work" - it's always been the case that so many at Cardiff City want their piano players to do the lifting as well.

But you were one of the posters saying Whitts shouldn't be given another season back then so even you can appreciate that there's a line that has to be drawn somewhere and the Colwill debate is which side of the line he is, just like it was with Whitts towards the end of his time here.

I don't think it's as simple as getting 'stuck in'. Stuff like work rate, pressing and tracking back are the norm now surely? There's a level of physicality and athleticism expected that's higher than it was in the past. My lad can tell you how his sport has changed in the same way. I'm not saying you have to like it but it's the way it is.

I'm no expert on the Premier League but wasn't this what United were getting slated for last season, that their players just weren't working hard enough in comparison to Liverpool or Man City? Were United's fans happy to be watching their piano players? Didn't seem to be.

[the other bob wilson]

But you were one of the posters saying Whitts shouldn't be given another season back then so even you can appreciate that there's a line that has to be drawn somewhere and the Colwill debate is which side of the line he is, just like it was with Whitts towards the end of his time here.

I don't think it's as simple as getting 'stuck in'. Stuff like work rate, pressing and tracking back are the norm now surely? There's a level of physicality and athleticism expected that's higher than it was in the past. My lad can tell you how his sport has changed in the same way. I'm not saying you have to like it but it's the way it is.

I'm no expert on the Premier League but wasn't this what United were getting slated for last season, that their players just weren't working hard enough in comparison to Liverpool or Man City? Were United's fans happy to be watching their piano players? Didn't seem to be.

Well, Whitts’ season at Blackburn rather proved that the decision to release him when we did was the right one. For me, he was at his peak around 2012, but for every year until 2016, when he thirty two, he was well worth a new contract in my opinion.

I accept that what players do when not in possession has become more important, but I don’t think Colwill just stands about doing nothing when we don’t have the ball, he tries to do what he is, no doubt, told to do constantly, but he isn’t the best at it.

This takes me on to the seven/four situation - that seemed the right balance to me during Toshack’s time and it still does now, despite the changes in approach you talk about. If you look at the teams Steve Morison tended to pick, I’d say the balance tended to be eight/three and, like so many managers he was preoccupied more with getting the three or four to help the seven or eight out rather than vice versa.

You could argue to some extent that players like Colwill have been less effective because the seven/eight were not doing their jobs well enough. It was noticeable over the three seasons following our relegation how often the Colwill equivalent players in our team (Tomlin and Wilson) were anonymous in the first half of matches in 19/20 and 20/21and, on the rare occasions he started under Morison in 21/22, Colwill was a spectator most of the time during the opening forty five minutes All of this points to long standing inability to pass the ball accurately enough - it was only in the second half, as opponents tired, that the players I mentioned came into their own.

As for Manchester United, I’d say they had too many players who should have been in the seven who thought they were one of the four - they were a team short of piano lifters in the same way we had too few piano players.

Finally, as for as get stuck in merchants are concerned, I agree that you need more than that these days even to be a piano lifter, but that message has taken longer to sink at Cardiffthan most other clubs. For me, this summer has given us a nucleus of hard working players with better ability on the ball- players of the type that should be equipped to give the Tomkins, Wilson’s and Colwill’s of this world the sort of service which would see them get more involved. It’s frustrating therefore that Morison seemed reluctant to commit fully to the seven/four divide, the most adventurous he tended to get was a seven and half, three and a half arrangement with Sawyers expected to do a bit of both.

[NYCBlue]

My post was not about Whitts' ability it was about the fact that he sometimes went missing in games. As pointed out by others he would have been a top prem player but for this alone I think. My view is at the moment Colwill can suffer from this too as the game can sometimes pass him by but because of his age am not part of the clamour to see him start every game. Polo's view on that sub by Warnock is spot on in my view and no way to treat a player that was and is of legendary status.

He is the best long term player we've had in my lifetime. He scored almost 100 goals. His touch was immaculate. His vision and "football brain" unmatched among Championship players of his era. Yes, there was something missing. That's why he played for us and not Liverpool or Man City. To say he was a luxury player is ****ing ridiculous. He made a difference in so many games .

[I'll give you the Malky!!]

That's a bit harsh personally, I don't think that he's the brightest on a football pitch. He's great when he can drive into space with the ball, he's naturally good at that. Ask him to look over his shoulder before he receives the ball, not happening.

Absolute rubbish....he's always scanning and showing for the ball - appears to have more of a footballing brain than a lot of those experienced pros who have been shifted out this summer.

[Garth Blue]

Issue is that you need to build The entire team and formation around Colwill if you want him to flourish. Is he yah good? I’m just not sure. If I was manager would I? Probably not.

Wales don't create formations around Colwill but he always does really well.
At a time when Cardiff need someone who can create opportunities, it is madness he is not in the team.

[NYCBlue]

Absolute rubbish....he's always scanning and showing for the ball - appears to have more of a footballing brain than a lot of those experienced pros who have been shifted out this summer.

The exact opposite of this.

[Garth Blue]

He's a lazy sod. Never seen him put a tackle in, track back, lost the ball every time he received it when he came on against 'boro - though hardly broke a sweat. I think this mis-place praise has gone to his head and he thinks he's a lot better than he really is. Can fully understand why his doesn't get picked.

You need to get the shit out of your eyes.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Interesting point this, it's a comparison I'd been thinking about myself. I was actually sad enough to go back to April 2017 on here (around page 930) to check it out and the mixed views on Whitts as he came to the end of his time here were very similar to those on Colwill now. I wondered if the same posters were sticking up for both and the previous two posters in this thread both popped up. Older Blue started a thread defending Whitts and JR Hartley was calling Warnock an 'utter c**t' for subbing him against Newcastle.

Out of character but I said something quite interesting, looking back. I pointed out that Whitts had been tried in a number of positions in the previous season or two without really convincing in any but when he got criticised for a poor performance posters would jump in and say it was because he was being played out of position. It seems to be a recurring theme with Colwill now too. There were the same 'lazy/ lethargic/ half-hearted' criticisms aimed at both players by some posters too.

I'm not sure how a lad just out of his teens can be seen in the same way as a man in his thirties coming to the end of his career but, both positively and negatively, there do seem to be some similarities here, to be fair to Sneggy.

That's not quite how I remember Whittingham's last seasons with us. From memory, the big dilemma was that he delivered from set pieces, even if not scoring any more from direct free kicks, but from open play he no longer did much.

I recall Whitts first few seasons with us. He divided opinions then. Allegedly Forest bid £2m for him and I reckon half of our supporters would have taken it. Then Dave Jones put him on penalty duties and give him a freer role as an attacking wide man. All of a sudden Whitts became (rightfully) a legend.

Colwill is too young to have firm opinions on. It is certain that, unless he produces moments of brilliance on some sort of regular basis, he will divide opinion. Having a moment of magic is fantastic if it happens every game. Every 3 games is great. Every 10, less so, and so on. If one of your specialisms is creating moments of genius but you have little else, those moments need to be regular.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

In coming Willie Boland love in from Sludge.

Absolute legend

[Loramski]

Well, Whitts’ season at Blackburn rather proved that the decision to release him when we did was the right one. For me, he was at his peak around 2012, but for every year until 2016, when he thirty two, he was well worth a new contract in my opinion.

I accept that what players do when not in possession has become more important, but I don’t think Colwill just stands about doing nothing when we don’t have the ball, he tries to do what he is, no doubt, told to do constantly, but he isn’t the best at it.

This takes me on to the seven/four situation - that seemed the right balance to me during Toshack’s time and it still does now, despite the changes in approach you talk about. If you look at the teams Steve Morison tended to pick, I’d say the balance tended to be eight/three and, like so many managers he was preoccupied more with getting the three or four to help the seven or eight out rather than vice versa.

You could argue to some extent that players like Colwill have been less effective because the seven/eight were not doing their jobs well enough. It was noticeable over the three seasons following our relegation how often the Colwill equivalent players in our team (Tomlin and Wilson) were anonymous in the first half of matches in 19/20 and 20/21and, on the rare occasions he started under Morison in 21/22, Colwill was a spectator most of the time during the opening forty five minutes All of this points to long standing inability to pass the ball accurately enough - it was only in the second half, as opponents tired, that the players I mentioned came into their own.

As for Manchester United, I’d say they had too many players who should have been in the seven who thought they were one of the four - they were a team short of piano lifters in the same way we had too few piano players.

Finally, as for as get stuck in merchants are concerned, I agree that you need more than that these days even to be a piano lifter, but that message has taken longer to sink at Cardiffthan most other clubs. For me, this summer has given us a nucleus of hard working players with better ability on the ball- players of the type that should be equipped to give the Tomkins, Wilson’s and Colwill’s of this world the sort of service which would see them get more involved. It’s frustrating therefore that Morison seemed reluctant to commit fully to the seven/four divide, the most adventurous he tended to get was a seven and half, three and a half arrangement with Sawyers expected to do a bit of both.

Such a good post, really well explained. I'm pretty sure there's no exact right or wrong answer to this but it's hard to argue with the points you've made. The piano player/lifter analogy is a good one, I was explaining it to my eldest earlier. Soon after, the camera panned to Mark Harris on the Wales bench and I said to my lad that there's an example of someone who thought they were a player but, after a third failed loan spell and surely on his way out of here, suddenly realised he was going to have to do a bit of lifting too if he wanted a career in the game.

I don't see Colwill as lazy particularly but there always seems to be a lack of zip and general athleticism about him that I feel he needs to sort out. I saw criticism of Sam Bowen earlier in the season for not working hard enough off the ball and he hasn't played in the league for Newport for a month now. Like I said earlier, just being a player isn't enough anymore, almost everyone's expected to do their share of lifting.

[life on mars]

The bust up rumours were all about, straight after the dismissal.

[Tuerto]

The bust up rumours were all about, straight after the dismissal.

?....

[North Cardiff Blue]

Issue is that you need to build The entire team and formation around Colwill if you want him to flourish. Is he yah good? I’m just not sure. If I was manager would I? Probably not.

I've seen comparisons with Harry Wilson on this thread, there is no comparison, Harry Wilson is miles better, maybe build a team around him but not Colwill.

[Cyclops]

Such a good post, really well explained. I'm pretty sure there's no exact right or wrong answer to this but it's hard to argue with the points you've made. The piano player/lifter analogy is a good one, I was explaining it to my eldest earlier. Soon after, the camera panned to Mark Harris on the Wales bench and I said to my lad that there's an example of someone who thought they were a player but, after a third failed loan spell and surely on his way out of here, suddenly realised he was going to have to do a bit of lifting too if he wanted a career in the game.

I don't see Colwill as lazy particularly but there always seems to be a lack of zip and general athleticism about him that I feel he needs to sort out. I saw criticism of Sam Bowen earlier in the season for not working hard enough off the ball and he hasn't played in the league for Newport for a month now. Like I said earlier, just being a player isn't enough anymore, almost everyone's expected to do their share of lifting.

I thought Colwill was impressive last night.
He was always looking for the ball and constructive in his distribution.
He certainly didn't look bereft of confidence in the least.
Page obviously rates and trusts him to bring him on at a crucial point in the match - ie twenty minutes from the end.
Wasn't there a question mark about his fitness early on in the season?

[Des Parrot]

What do you think constitutes a Championship quality player? What members of the current City squad do you rate as Championship quality?

Shame there’s been no replies to this point. I’d love to know the answer.

[the other bob wilson]

I thought Colwill was impressive last night.
He was always looking for the ball and constructive in his distribution.
He certainly didn't look bereft of confidence in the least.
Page obviously rates and trusts him to bring him on at a crucial point in the match - ie twenty minutes from the end.
Wasn't there a question mark about his fitness early on in the season?

I was surprised to see Colwill come on after his omission from the match day squad on Thursday- I assumed his stop, start (mostly stop) club season was working against him. I mentioned in my blog piece that Wales spent the first eighty minutes playing a bit like headless chickens and only really started getting somewhere in the last ten minutes when I thought they started using their heads a bit more. Colwill played a part in that and I’m a lot more confident of him making the squad for Qatar now than I was on Friday.

What would clinch it would be a good month of club form and, surely, his very low scoring club will finally start giving this home, grown talent who is/was highly rated by every manager he’s played for in senior football apart from Steve Morison.

[Rjk]

I was surprised to see Colwill come on after his omission from the match day squad on Thursday- I assumed his stop, start (mostly stop) club season was working against him. I mentioned in my blog piece that Wales spent the first eighty minutes playing a bit like headless chickens and only really started getting somewhere in the last ten minutes when I thought they started using their heads a bit more. Colwill played a part in that and I’m a lot more confident of him making the squad for Qatar now than I was on Friday.

What would clinch it would be a good month of club form and, surely, his very low scoring club will finally start giving this home, grown talent who is/was highly rated by every manager he’s played for in senior football apart from Steve Morison.

Steve Morison has described Colwill as very talented - said the world's his oyster, and said he was too important for us to rush him back from injury. i don't think he doesnt rate him

[the other bob wilson]

Steve Morison has described Colwill as very talented - said the world's his oyster, and said he was too important for us to rush him back from injury. i don't think he doesnt rate him

Actions speak louder than words.

[Loramski]

That's not quite how I remember Whittingham's last seasons with us. From memory, the big dilemma was that he delivered from set pieces, even if not scoring any more from direct free kicks, but from open play he no longer did much.

I recall Whitts first few seasons with us. He divided opinions then. Allegedly Forest bid £2m for him and I reckon half of our supporters would have taken it. Then Dave Jones put him on penalty duties and give him a freer role as an attacking wide man. All of a sudden Whitts became (rightfully) a legend.

Colwill is too young to have firm opinions on. It is certain that, unless he produces moments of brilliance on some sort of regular basis, he will divide opinion. Having a moment of magic is fantastic if it happens every game. Every 3 games is great. Every 10, less so, and so on. If one of your specialisms is creating moments of genius but you have little else, those moments need to be regular.

Good post this, I meant to reply to it sooner. I think it sums it up well. Of course there can be an element of blame to put on the manager for not getting the best out of a player but, equally, the player himself has to make an impact when the chances come along or the patience of the fans starts to run out. It had happened by the end with Whitts (I was surprised at the level of negativity towards him on here) and it seems to be building a bit with Colwill but hopefully he'll put that right soon.

By the way, it's not how I remember Whitts' last seasons with us either. I was surprised to see I'd written it to be honest. I remember him being played forward in a midfield three which never worked and I'm guessing he may have played out wide too (I remember Slade playing Ralls there, maybe he swapped the two of them now and again?). He sat in front of a back three under Trollope too which didn't work but by and large I'd have thought his last couple of seasons here were spent as a centre-mid in front of a four. You mentioning his set-piece delivery reminds me that I'd also said that Slade's greatest legacy here was that no other fanbase in world football was more obsessed with corner taking than we were. There wasn't much else to talk about to be fair.