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Thread: Great Documentary Loves His Footy

  1. #1

    Great Documentary Loves His Footy

    Reasd and saw the documentraty on Channel 4 good read sad it happeneed at the football with his dad his book is brillant

    https://www.channel4.com/programmes/...ews-dont-count


    By Brendan O’Neill Spectator

    Baddielphobia and the ugly truth about anti-Semitism
    23 November, 2022, 6:54 AM

    David Baddiel could not have asked for better evidence for his thesis that ‘Jews don’t count’ than the online reaction to it.

    Channel 4 broadcast his intelligent and touching documentary this week with that very title – Jews Don’t Count – and instantly there was an explosion of Baddielphobia. It was almost as if people were determined to prove his point. There’s a blind spot among progressives when it comes to anti-Jewish hatred, said Baddiel. And – boom – there it was, right away, in hateful comment after hateful comment: the blind spot, clear as anything.

    Baddiel first made his case in his sharp polemical book Jews Don’t Count, published last year. He argued, convincingly, that there is a new leftish coalition that fancies itself as being ‘on the right side of history’ but which rarely takes up the cause of Jews.

    It’s not the left as we would have traditionally understood it, he says. It’s more cultural than economic, more into identity than class. But not all identities. There’s one identity group it cold-shoulders, whose experiences of racial hatred it tends to overlook. Jews, they’re just not that into you.

    Baddiel’s book gives numerous examples of prejudicial speech against Jews that just didn’t cause much stir among supposedly anti-racist progressives. Speech that would have had them glued to their computer keyboards, hollering for the evil speaker’s cancellation, had it been aimed at any other ethnic minority.

    None of the rules of identity politics seem to apply to Jews, says Baddiel. Especially the rule that says minorities must be allowed to define and speak about the racism they experience. Jews are excluded from the ‘sacred circle’ of progressive causes, he says.

    This is so obviously the case. I have been in media discussions about anti-Semitism where someone of a leftish persuasion will say, ‘And what about Islamophobia?’. Someone mentions anti-Semitism and they instinctively bark: ‘And black people? Do you care about them?’

    Whenever I write about anti-Semitism I’m inundated with hateful messages. ‘Zio-cuck’ was a recent one. When I wrote about Wiley’s anti-Jewish outbursts people even made the effort of finding my Instagram so that they could tell me what a racist I am. It’s racist to talk about anti-Jewish racism, you see. I can only imagine the bile Jews receive.

    Monday night’s TV version of Baddiel’s book was a great watch. He spoke to Howard Jacobson, David Schwimmer, Sarah Silverman, Miriam Margolyes. They talked about the racist tropes that say Jews run Hollywood and are greedy and deviant. They talked about the racist attacks Jews have been subjected to in recent years. This was important stuff.

    Well done everyone for making Baddiel’s case for him And the reaction from the right-side-of-history brigade? From those self-styled anti-racists? They mocked it. They ridiculed it. They branded Baddiel a hypocrite. They said that, if anything, Jews are privileged when it comes to discussions about racism. The racist far right talks about ‘Jewish privilege’, the racist radical left talks about the privileging of Jewish suffering. Two cheeks of the same you know what.

    Baddiel-bashing is everywhere right now. You just do not see this with other minority groups. If a black woman made a TV show about anti-black racism, or a young Muslim gave a speech about anti-Muslim bigotry, social media would not be aflame with insults and jibes against those people. But a Jew? Knock yourselves out.

    The weird left seems determined to derail every discussion about anti-Semitism. I cannot remember the last time a Jewish person got to speak about anti-Jewish racism without swarms of identitarians trying to shout them down. Margaret Hodge, Rachel Riley, Luciana Berger, and now Baddiel – all are heckled, all are demonised.

    It feels almost pathological at this stage. A Jew opens his mouth to talk about racism and instantly the Socialism of Fools manifests, with a thousand tweeters wondering out loud when this privileged, moany idiot is going to shut the hell up.

    Derailment has been the name of the game once again following the airing of Baddiel’s doc. The main way they try to derail Baddiel’s commentary on anti-Jewish hate is by reminding him that he used to black-up as footballer Jason Lee on Fantasy Football League 25 years ago.

    It doesn’t matter that Baddiel has apologised for doing this, on more than one occasion, including to Lee personally on Jews Don’t Count. It is still tirelessly raked up. It is played as a Baddiel-silencing trump card. ‘Ha, you’re the real racist’, they say.

    Clearly Baddiel isn’t racist. Clearly he feels no prejudice towards Lee or black people in general. I’m sure many of his detractors know this.

    No matter, for them the old blacking-up story has one aim and one aim only: to delegitimise Baddiel and derail his commentary on anti-Jewish hate. It’s a poisonous silencing tactic.

    So, well done everyone for making Baddiel’s case for him. Your fury at a Jew for saying Jews don’t count pretty much demonstrates that you think Jews don’t count. Anyone who thought that leftish animus towards the Jews would fade away with the decline of the Corbynista movement was clearly mistaken. That ‘blind spot’ Baddiel highlights is growing and getting nastier. It’s time more proper progressives took a stand against this new appearance of the oldest hatred.

  2. #2

    Re: Great Documentary Loves His Footy

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    Reasd and saw the documentraty on Channel 4 good read sad it happeneed at the football with his dad his book is brillant

    https://www.channel4.com/programmes/...ews-dont-count


    By Brendan O’Neill Spectator

    Baddielphobia and the ugly truth about anti-Semitism
    23 November, 2022, 6:54 AM

    David Baddiel could not have asked for better evidence for his thesis that ‘Jews don’t count’ than the online reaction to it.

    Channel 4 broadcast his intelligent and touching documentary this week with that very title – Jews Don’t Count – and instantly there was an explosion of Baddielphobia. It was almost as if people were determined to prove his point. There’s a blind spot among progressives when it comes to anti-Jewish hatred, said Baddiel. And – boom – there it was, right away, in hateful comment after hateful comment: the blind spot, clear as anything.

    Baddiel first made his case in his sharp polemical book Jews Don’t Count, published last year. He argued, convincingly, that there is a new leftish coalition that fancies itself as being ‘on the right side of history’ but which rarely takes up the cause of Jews.

    It’s not the left as we would have traditionally understood it, he says. It’s more cultural than economic, more into identity than class. But not all identities. There’s one identity group it cold-shoulders, whose experiences of racial hatred it tends to overlook. Jews, they’re just not that into you.

    Baddiel’s book gives numerous examples of prejudicial speech against Jews that just didn’t cause much stir among supposedly anti-racist progressives. Speech that would have had them glued to their computer keyboards, hollering for the evil speaker’s cancellation, had it been aimed at any other ethnic minority.

    None of the rules of identity politics seem to apply to Jews, says Baddiel. Especially the rule that says minorities must be allowed to define and speak about the racism they experience. Jews are excluded from the ‘sacred circle’ of progressive causes, he says.

    This is so obviously the case. I have been in media discussions about anti-Semitism where someone of a leftish persuasion will say, ‘And what about Islamophobia?’. Someone mentions anti-Semitism and they instinctively bark: ‘And black people? Do you care about them?’

    Whenever I write about anti-Semitism I’m inundated with hateful messages. ‘Zio-cuck’ was a recent one. When I wrote about Wiley’s anti-Jewish outbursts people even made the effort of finding my Instagram so that they could tell me what a racist I am. It’s racist to talk about anti-Jewish racism, you see. I can only imagine the bile Jews receive.

    Monday night’s TV version of Baddiel’s book was a great watch. He spoke to Howard Jacobson, David Schwimmer, Sarah Silverman, Miriam Margolyes. They talked about the racist tropes that say Jews run Hollywood and are greedy and deviant. They talked about the racist attacks Jews have been subjected to in recent years. This was important stuff.

    Well done everyone for making Baddiel’s case for him And the reaction from the right-side-of-history brigade? From those self-styled anti-racists? They mocked it. They ridiculed it. They branded Baddiel a hypocrite. They said that, if anything, Jews are privileged when it comes to discussions about racism. The racist far right talks about ‘Jewish privilege’, the racist radical left talks about the privileging of Jewish suffering. Two cheeks of the same you know what.

    Baddiel-bashing is everywhere right now. You just do not see this with other minority groups. If a black woman made a TV show about anti-black racism, or a young Muslim gave a speech about anti-Muslim bigotry, social media would not be aflame with insults and jibes against those people. But a Jew? Knock yourselves out.

    The weird left seems determined to derail every discussion about anti-Semitism. I cannot remember the last time a Jewish person got to speak about anti-Jewish racism without swarms of identitarians trying to shout them down. Margaret Hodge, Rachel Riley, Luciana Berger, and now Baddiel – all are heckled, all are demonised.

    It feels almost pathological at this stage. A Jew opens his mouth to talk about racism and instantly the Socialism of Fools manifests, with a thousand tweeters wondering out loud when this privileged, moany idiot is going to shut the hell up.

    Derailment has been the name of the game once again following the airing of Baddiel’s doc. The main way they try to derail Baddiel’s commentary on anti-Jewish hate is by reminding him that he used to black-up as footballer Jason Lee on Fantasy Football League 25 years ago.

    It doesn’t matter that Baddiel has apologised for doing this, on more than one occasion, including to Lee personally on Jews Don’t Count. It is still tirelessly raked up. It is played as a Baddiel-silencing trump card. ‘Ha, you’re the real racist’, they say.

    Clearly Baddiel isn’t racist. Clearly he feels no prejudice towards Lee or black people in general. I’m sure many of his detractors know this.

    No matter, for them the old blacking-up story has one aim and one aim only: to delegitimise Baddiel and derail his commentary on anti-Jewish hate. It’s a poisonous silencing tactic.

    So, well done everyone for making Baddiel’s case for him. Your fury at a Jew for saying Jews don’t count pretty much demonstrates that you think Jews don’t count. Anyone who thought that leftish animus towards the Jews would fade away with the decline of the Corbynista movement was clearly mistaken. That ‘blind spot’ Baddiel highlights is growing and getting nastier. It’s time more proper progressives took a stand against this new appearance of the oldest hatred.
    Is it okay to say I never liked Saint David in his show with Frank Skinner? I’m not saying he isn’t right in his views about his religion, but I saw an interview with Jason Lee recently and he has certainly not forgotten, not sure he has forgiven either - Baddiel’s apology was an awful long time in coming as well apparently.

  3. #3

    Re: Great Documentary Loves His Footy

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    Is it okay to say I never liked Saint David in his show with Frank Skinner? I’m not saying he isn’t right in his views about his religion, but I saw an interview with Jason Lee recently and he has certainly not forgotten, not sure he has forgiven either - Baddiel’s apology was an awful long time in coming as well apparently.
    Lee said that he finally accepted the apology after Baddiel had come to him and spoken directly.

  4. #4
    International jon1959's Avatar
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    Re: Great Documentary Loves His Footy

    Quote Originally Posted by lardy View Post
    Lee said that he finally accepted the apology after Baddiel had come to him and spoken directly.
    https://www.theguardian.com/football...addiel-apology

    “Long overdue,” Lee says of the apology. “I’ve had to wait a long time, I’ve always felt I was contactable and there was an opportunity. I thought it was a poor excuse to say he couldn’t get in touch with me. I think he admits embarrassment, shame and the longer it took, the harder it was to have that conversation.”

  5. #5

    Re: Great Documentary Loves His Footy

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    Reasd and saw the documentraty on Channel 4 good read sad it happeneed at the football with his dad his book is brillant

    https://www.channel4.com/programmes/...ews-dont-count


    By Brendan O’Neill Spectator

    Baddielphobia and the ugly truth about anti-Semitism
    23 November, 2022, 6:54 AM

    David Baddiel could not have asked for better evidence for his thesis that ‘Jews don’t count’ than the online reaction to it.

    Channel 4 broadcast his intelligent and touching documentary this week with that very title – Jews Don’t Count – and instantly there was an explosion of Baddielphobia. It was almost as if people were determined to prove his point. There’s a blind spot among progressives when it comes to anti-Jewish hatred, said Baddiel. And – boom – there it was, right away, in hateful comment after hateful comment: the blind spot, clear as anything.

    Baddiel first made his case in his sharp polemical book Jews Don’t Count, published last year. He argued, convincingly, that there is a new leftish coalition that fancies itself as being ‘on the right side of history’ but which rarely takes up the cause of Jews.

    It’s not the left as we would have traditionally understood it, he says. It’s more cultural than economic, more into identity than class. But not all identities. There’s one identity group it cold-shoulders, whose experiences of racial hatred it tends to overlook. Jews, they’re just not that into you.

    Baddiel’s book gives numerous examples of prejudicial speech against Jews that just didn’t cause much stir among supposedly anti-racist progressives. Speech that would have had them glued to their computer keyboards, hollering for the evil speaker’s cancellation, had it been aimed at any other ethnic minority.

    None of the rules of identity politics seem to apply to Jews, says Baddiel. Especially the rule that says minorities must be allowed to define and speak about the racism they experience. Jews are excluded from the ‘sacred circle’ of progressive causes, he says.

    This is so obviously the case. I have been in media discussions about anti-Semitism where someone of a leftish persuasion will say, ‘And what about Islamophobia?’. Someone mentions anti-Semitism and they instinctively bark: ‘And black people? Do you care about them?’

    Whenever I write about anti-Semitism I’m inundated with hateful messages. ‘Zio-cuck’ was a recent one. When I wrote about Wiley’s anti-Jewish outbursts people even made the effort of finding my Instagram so that they could tell me what a racist I am. It’s racist to talk about anti-Jewish racism, you see. I can only imagine the bile Jews receive.

    Monday night’s TV version of Baddiel’s book was a great watch. He spoke to Howard Jacobson, David Schwimmer, Sarah Silverman, Miriam Margolyes. They talked about the racist tropes that say Jews run Hollywood and are greedy and deviant. They talked about the racist attacks Jews have been subjected to in recent years. This was important stuff.

    Well done everyone for making Baddiel’s case for him And the reaction from the right-side-of-history brigade? From those self-styled anti-racists? They mocked it. They ridiculed it. They branded Baddiel a hypocrite. They said that, if anything, Jews are privileged when it comes to discussions about racism. The racist far right talks about ‘Jewish privilege’, the racist radical left talks about the privileging of Jewish suffering. Two cheeks of the same you know what.

    Baddiel-bashing is everywhere right now. You just do not see this with other minority groups. If a black woman made a TV show about anti-black racism, or a young Muslim gave a speech about anti-Muslim bigotry, social media would not be aflame with insults and jibes against those people. But a Jew? Knock yourselves out.

    The weird left seems determined to derail every discussion about anti-Semitism. I cannot remember the last time a Jewish person got to speak about anti-Jewish racism without swarms of identitarians trying to shout them down. Margaret Hodge, Rachel Riley, Luciana Berger, and now Baddiel – all are heckled, all are demonised.

    It feels almost pathological at this stage. A Jew opens his mouth to talk about racism and instantly the Socialism of Fools manifests, with a thousand tweeters wondering out loud when this privileged, moany idiot is going to shut the hell up.

    Derailment has been the name of the game once again following the airing of Baddiel’s doc. The main way they try to derail Baddiel’s commentary on anti-Jewish hate is by reminding him that he used to black-up as footballer Jason Lee on Fantasy Football League 25 years ago.

    It doesn’t matter that Baddiel has apologised for doing this, on more than one occasion, including to Lee personally on Jews Don’t Count. It is still tirelessly raked up. It is played as a Baddiel-silencing trump card. ‘Ha, you’re the real racist’, they say.

    Clearly Baddiel isn’t racist. Clearly he feels no prejudice towards Lee or black people in general. I’m sure many of his detractors know this.

    No matter, for them the old blacking-up story has one aim and one aim only: to delegitimise Baddiel and derail his commentary on anti-Jewish hate. It’s a poisonous silencing tactic.

    So, well done everyone for making Baddiel’s case for him. Your fury at a Jew for saying Jews don’t count pretty much demonstrates that you think Jews don’t count. Anyone who thought that leftish animus towards the Jews would fade away with the decline of the Corbynista movement was clearly mistaken. That ‘blind spot’ Baddiel highlights is growing and getting nastier. It’s time more proper progressives took a stand against this new appearance of the oldest hatred.
    I saw the Baddiel documentary and I thought it interesting but not entirely convincing. However he did make some points which I considered to be true.

    However looking at the quote you've brought up I note it's written by Brendan O'Neill. He's never noted for his friendliness towards left wingers. Did he conveniently forget right wing Jewish hatred?

  6. #6

    Re: Great Documentary Loves His Footy

    The Spectator ?

    You have got to be kidding ? It's a right wing porn mag

    I don't dislike Baddiel because he Jewish, I dislike him because he's a pretentious media luvvie

    Anyone who abuses him because his parents were Jewish are a waste of space

    If people criticise him because of the way he behaves or what he does then that's fair enough if what he does is wrong

    If he knew Jason Lee was hurt and offended by baddiel blacking up he should have had a private conversation with Lee and apologised if they both felt that was right

    To leave it so long says more about baddiel than it does about Lee

    On the wider issue of criticising zionism which is still very prevalent today it can be done without going down the road of extremism

  7. #7

    Re: Great Documentary Loves His Footy

    He's right at least that the left that some of the older board members remember is pretty much gone. Class politics have been ditched in favour of identity politics. Labour is controlled by a metropolitan elite. I guess Corbyn spanned both sides but we saw what Labour did to him.

  8. #8

    Re: Great Documentary Loves His Footy

    Quote Originally Posted by Robin Friday's Ghost View Post
    He's right at least that the left that some of the older board members remember is pretty much gone. Class politics have been ditched in favour of identity politics. Labour is controlled by a metropolitan elite. I guess Corbyn spanned both sides but we saw what Labour did to him.
    I pretty much agree with this. There isn't any political party I can support anymore though.

  9. #9

    Re: Great Documentary Loves His Footy

    Quote Originally Posted by Robin Friday's Ghost View Post
    He's right at least that the left that some of the older board members remember is pretty much gone. Class politics have been ditched in favour of identity politics. Labour is controlled by a metropolitan elite. I guess Corbyn spanned both sides but we saw what Labour did to him.
    Corbyn and his mates set back the labour party many years

    The metropolitan elite that you refer to are not perfect but together with the big vote in Wales, Yorkshire etc are the only chance of getting the Tories out

    Or we can sit on our hands and sit on the opposition benches

  10. #10

    Re: Great Documentary Loves His Footy

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew View Post
    I pretty much agree with this. There isn't any political party I can support anymore though.
    I have one

    Whoever is standing against the Tories and is not right wing and their election will boot the tories out

    THAT party gets my vote

    Labour , Liberal , Independent , Plaid

    Anyone but the conservatives

  11. #11

    Re: Great Documentary Loves His Footy

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    Corbyn and his mates set back the labour party many years

    The metropolitan elite that you refer to are not perfect but together with the big vote in Wales, Yorkshire etc are the only chance of getting the Tories out

    Or we can sit on our hands and sit on the opposition benches
    What happens after you get the Tories out? Not too bothered?

  12. #12

    Re: Great Documentary Loves His Footy

    Just to say that a video of the meeting between Lee and Baddiel has been posted on You Tube this week - I’m watching it now and it’s not coming over as some staged event.

  13. #13

    Re: Great Documentary Loves His Footy

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    I have one

    Whoever is standing against the Tories and is not right wing and their election will boot the tories out

    THAT party gets my vote

    Labour , Liberal , Independent , Plaid

    Anyone but the conservatives
    Fair point Sludge. As Marx said: Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

  14. #14

    Re: Great Documentary Loves His Footy

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    Just to say that a video of the meeting between Lee and Baddiel has been posted on You Tube this week - I’m watching it now and it’s not coming over as some staged event.
    Wouldn't the fact it's been videod suggest it wasn't totally spontaneous ?

  15. #15

    Re: Great Documentary Loves His Footy

    Quote Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish View Post
    Wouldn't the fact it's been videod suggest it wasn't totally spontaneous ?
    Well, it was never going to be spontaneous. Lee does a podcast, so it was always likely to be videoed and although it all got a bit matey by the end, there was a lot of straight talking by Lee especially to begin with.

  16. #16
    International jon1959's Avatar
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    Re: Great Documentary Loves His Footy

    I don't like David Baddiel because of his past racism, misogyny and laddishness - and I never found him funny - but it is right to take his book and Channel 4 documentary seriously, and not just form judgements based on his own past.

    There are a few hard core Baddiel fans on here (not just LOM) who have repeated his main points, but I'm not convinced. In the UK especially anti-semitism (or anti Zionism) as an issue has been centre stage for over 7 years. It hasn't been downplayed; it has been elevated and weaponised. I doubt that BLM or other responses to racism came anywhere close to the TV and newspaper coverage that was given to anti-semitiism in that time. The two main political parties in the UK Parliament continue to have big membership 'Friends Of Israel' groups which makes many of them apologists for Israel (including breaches of international law, apartheid and war crimes) but also ensures that there is a high level of sensitivity to reports of antisemitism in the legislature. Maybe it is different in the USA?

    Unfortunately anti Jewish hatred, anti Zionism and criticism of the Israeli state have all become deliberately conflated through attacks on the Corbyn leadership of the Labour Party and its aftermath. Anti-semitism has been thrown around wildly - often against Jewish people who do not accept Zionism as their political ideology. Miriam Margolyes is one of thousands of Jews abused online as an anti-semite and 'self-loathing Jew' because of her political stance.

    At the same time it appears that real examples of antisemitism in Europe and North America are on the rise. There are anti-semites on the left (always have been) but the main threat continues to be from the political right (establishment as well as populist and neo Nazis). That needs to be understood and combated. But I don't think Baddiel's thesis helps much with that.

  17. #17

    Re: Great Documentary Loves His Footy

    Quote Originally Posted by jon1959 View Post
    I don't like David Baddiel because of his past racism, misogyny and laddishness - and I never found him funny - but it is right to take his book and Channel 4 documentary seriously, and not just form judgements based on his own past.

    There are a few hard core Baddiel fans on here (not just LOM) who have repeated his main points, but I'm not convinced. In the UK especially anti-semitism (or anti Zionism) as an issue has been centre stage for over 7 years. It hasn't been downplayed; it has been elevated and weaponised. I doubt that BLM or other responses to racism came anywhere close to the TV and newspaper coverage that was given to anti-semitiism in that time. The two main political parties in the UK Parliament continue to have big membership 'Friends Of Israel' groups which makes many of them apologists for Israel (including breaches of international law, apartheid and war crimes) but also ensures that there is a high level of sensitivity to reports of antisemitism in the legislature. Maybe it is different in the USA?

    Unfortunately anti Jewish hatred, anti Zionism and criticism of the Israeli state have all become deliberately conflated through attacks on the Corbyn leadership of the Labour Party and its aftermath. Anti-semitism has been thrown around wildly - often against Jewish people who do not accept Zionism as their political ideology. Miriam Margolyes is one of thousands of Jews abused online as an anti-semite and 'self-loathing Jew' because of her political stance.

    At the same time it appears that real examples of antisemitism in Europe and North America are on the rise. There are anti-semites on the left (always have been) but the main threat continues to be from the political right (establishment as well as populist and neo Nazis). That needs to be understood and combated. But I don't think Baddiel's thesis helps much with that.
    That's a really good post Jon and I agree entirely. It's hard work having any meaningful discussion about Israel without antisemitism being raised as a counterpoint. The irony is the shift to the right of Israeli politics and it reminds me of Nietzsche's quote: “Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”

  18. #18

    Re: Great Documentary Loves His Footy

    Superb post, Jon1959.
    Your posts are always worth reading and you make a refreshing change from the clutch of lesser balanced one-trick ponies on here (and we all know who they are).

  19. #19

    Re: Great Documentary Loves His Footy

    Quote Originally Posted by Robin Friday's Ghost View Post
    What happens after you get the Tories out? Not too bothered?
    Well we will see what happens

    How's that ?

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