Reply With QuoteI've heard before Corgi and Penguin
The first is pretty definite, but I'm not at all convinced by the latter, I've seen other etymologies that were more plausible
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What are the two English language words which come directly from the Welsh language? One of the answers didn’t surprise me because I think I heard about it before in the dim and distant past, but I would never have got the other one in a month of Sundays.
I've heard before Corgi and Penguin
The first is pretty definite, but I'm not at all convinced by the latter, I've seen other etymologies that were more plausible
Originally Posted by Rjk
It was Susie Dent, the lexicographer on Countdown, who said it - must admit I was very surprised by penguin.
Well it would seem highly foolish to disagree with Susie Dent on words, but when I've read about it before, there seemed to be a bit of debate and there were a few alternative possibilities that seemed more likely to me.
On a similar topic, my mother got an interesting looking book for christmas on the origins of the English language -
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Our-Magnifi.../dp/1592404944
And apparently the author argues that there has been more of an influence on English by Welsh than you might realise in some of the quirks of English grammatical structures etc - perhaps not any more actual words though.
I'm going to read it when she's finished with it.
I am an obsessed logophile and never a day goes by without me looking up etymology of specific words and trying to work out cognates within the English language and with other languages. We all have our probems
Pen gwyn would translate to white head, I guess.
And penguins normally have a mainly black head and mainly white body, so there's not much logic there.
The argument is that it was originally a word for the auk which looked a bit similar to a penguin and some have a white patch on their head.
Also there's a potential root from pinguis - the latin for fat
Or pinna + wing - pinna being italian for fin
That’s what she said, she said it meant white head and then also mentioned comarants and auks which do have white heads - all a bit confusing.
Any relation to Big Gwyn ?
The first recorded reference of the word 'Pen-gwins' (that we know of) was in Sir Thomas Herbert's book entitled "Some years travels into divers parts of Asia and Afrique", published in the 17th century. Although an Englishman, I note from the title page of the eponymous tome that his family motto was "Pawb yn yr arver"........
snip - 2023-01-12T154717.856.jpg
Place names for me. Seeing as how retirement gives plenty of opportunity for wandering along the less beaten footpaths of central England. A right melting pot of Norse/Norman/Anglo-Saxon/Celtic/Roman place names.I am an obsessed logophile and never a day goes by without me looking up etymology of specific words and trying to work out cognates within the English language and with other languages. We all have our probems
On a similar note, the River Avon is so-called because of the Welsh word for river (afon). So they've effectively called it the River River.
And some people say Welsh is an odd language?
They were looking at a negative of the photo at the time, hence the confusion.
Some interesting discussion on here--
https://english.stackexchange.com/qu...s-penguin-from
Similar to the River Bourne or Ouse. The town of Pendleton in Lancashire could, using different derivations of each part, mean hill hill hill.On a similar note, the River Avon is so-called because of the Welsh word for river (afon). So they've effectively called it the River River.
And some people say Welsh is an odd language?
Wales has to make do with Brynhill.
there's a torpenhow in Cumbria which means hill hill hill.
I'm not sure about pendleton - some quick googling suggests ton means farmstead i this context
How about this:
'Zaun' is a German word meaning fence and presumably encircled a homestead to keep wild animals out and to protect domestic animals and crops.
Zaun > Tuin
'Tuin' is the Dutch word for garden, which tends to be an area bounded by a fence. The German 'Z' often becomes a 'T' in Dutch and the vowel often changes. In this case, the German 'au', pronounced as in 'ow' (in English in the word 'cow') changed to the Dutch 'ui', which sounds like the Newport 'ow' as in cow.
Tuin > Town
'Tuin' in Dutch is cognate with the English suffix 'ton' and 'town' meaning the homestead or settlement often within the boundaries mentioned above.
Much more likely to have come from Latin I think. It's worth bearing in mind that a huge number of Welsh words are themselves derived from Latin.
Half and Half is a Welsh (Cardiff) thing that is primarily used in said Indian restaurant establishment, and is now spreading across England like the reintroduction of the red squirrel. I felt the need to raise the bar in this thread.
‘Cheers Drive’ (although said in Bristol apparently as well). Was in Newcastle for a City game a couple of seasons ago and said it to a taxi driver, he immediately said “You're from Cardiff”.............I did have a City scarf & bobble hat on mind.
I thought pengwyn was a bird that was named by our Breton friends (who were big into sailing at the time). Ties up with the fact that pingouin in French is a bird that can fly, albeit badly, and the word for penguin is manchot, a bird that can't fly.
So, have I solved this for all time?
If ton can be derived from dun then I'm claiming a triple hill. 🙂
Taunton = Tone town (the Tone being the river through the town)
Did you hear that Tony?
It's Taun Tone!
They also say “daps”, but I claim it for South Wales!
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