Personal pronouns in the workplace

[blue matt]

On a FOOTBALL forum?

its a bit of a general forum though

the other forum is for politics and the rubbish Sludge tends to post from time to time ( no offence Sludge )

[JamesWales]

This has of course become an unfortunate political football that some people use as a tool in culture wars and where their perhaps legitimate concerns are ignored, but fundementally this is about being a decent, respectful and tolerant person.

As SuperBluebirds excellent post demonstrates, these are deeply personal issues for some people and it's not hard to refer to people how they wish, and that's not a gender or pronoun thing, it's basic courtesy. It is also really important that people feel there is arena in which they can discuss the wider political issues if they so wish, but that doesn't change respect for people, whatever you may think about the big issues.

As I will always preach, live and let live, humans are diverse and it's great that people can live and flourish however they wish.

[UNDERHILL1927]

Why on earth is this thread on this forum? And really - is there any justification for all the foul words being bandied between certain posters?
Some people have threads removed for far less.

Why not just focus on the issue instead of childish arguments.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Why on earth is this thread on this forum? And really - is there any justification for all the foul words being bandied between certain posters?
Some people have threads removed for far less.

There are other posts in this forum about skis, rugby, darts, Las Vegas and the automotive industry - and this thread clearly indicates what the subect matter is and that it even affects football teams, as confirmed by one contributor on here. You can always not read the thread if you want to avoid the subject matter, of course.

As for the foul language and descent into insults: I think those posts should be removed and not the thread itself.

[NYCBlue]

Having retired just over year and a half ago (and having only worked in the MoD for the previous few decades) I have a question about the use of personal pronouns in the workplace. Just before I left my job, my employer encouraged employees to insert their chosen personal pronouns in the straplines of their emails - and I wonder if anyone on here is aware of any disciplinary measures they have experienced or know of regarding certain colleagues not using them for the individuals concerned.

I don't have an agenda regarding this matter, as such, although referring to an individual as 'they' would not come easy.

I started a new job just before Christmas. I was "encouraged" to use personal pronouns in my signature. I used he/him but I wonder how I'd be treated if i used the opposite.

[Canton Kev]

A woman who was born a man with the strength and power of a man who has a history of sexual offences against women ....when he was a man ......you think this person should be allowed into women's toilets , changing rooms etc ?

A woman coming onto a woman without consent of course happens but this person through changing is able to go into places she couldn't as a male

It's clearly a very dodgy situation

A woman born a woman can have a history of sexual assault against women too. And it’s not like women are a homogeneous group that are all small and weak. Plenty of women could overpower other women and many men too without needing to have been born a man.
The solution is same in both scenarios. Get a bouncer.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

A woman born a woman can have a history of sexual assault against women too. And it’s not like women are a homogeneous group that are all small and weak. Plenty of women could overpower other women and many men too without needing to have been born a man.
The solution is same in both scenarios. Get a bouncer.

It clearly isn't

A man convicted of rape against women who trans into a woman is clearly a risk to women

JK Rowling got dogs abuse for saying the same

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

its a bit of a general forum though

the other forum is for politics and the rubbish Sludge tends to post from time to time ( no offence Sludge )

Metal Will Never Die

[Taunton Blue Genie]

I started a new job just before Christmas. I was "encouraged" to use personal pronouns in my signature. I used he/him but I wonder how I'd be treated if i used the opposite.

What represents using the opposite?

[Canton Kev]

It clearly isn't

A man convicted of rape against women who trans into a woman is clearly a risk to women

JK Rowling got dogs abuse for saying the same

And a woman convicted of rape against another woman isn't?

[Bluebirdman Of Alcathays]

The trouble is there’s a lot of negative misinformation and anti trans campaign going on and it really doesn’t help in terms of helping people to understand. Campaign wise these people target vulnerable minority groups and it happened to gay people years ago but thankfully over time things are changing. The problem comes when people deliberately go out of their way to cause harm whether verbal or physical to trans people and there’s the issue but this says more about that person. Sounds crazy but trans people are currently being used as a scapegoat in a culture war hence all the rubbish about the bathroom debate - trans people just need to pee like everyone else.

Good luck to you SB91, but while there are individuals who make unhelpful comments there is no "anti-trans campaign" as such. That's misinformation in itself.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

And a woman convicted of rape against another woman isn't?

Can a woman who cannot penetrate another woman with a penis she doesn't have be convicted of rape ?

If she can do you think your wife , partner , girlfriend on finding out a former man with a rape conviction , now trans into a woman , is at a party at the local social club and is using the same toilets as her ?

Would you be OK with that ? Would she , more importantly?

Respecting trans people in their day to day lives is very important but in some circumstances things have not been thought out

What about transvestites who in many cases have no feelings to transform ?

Are you and your partner OK with them going into the ladies room ?

A lot of women who have had bad experiences with men are not going to be happy with a transvestite , a drag queen , a trans person who still remains biologically a man etc being in the female toilets ....and that's before the issue of criminal sexual convictions are considered

Trans people must be respected but there are caveats that simply can't be brushed under the carpet

[Canton Kev]

On a FOOTBALL forum?

Didn’t you start a thread about Mark Drakeford?

[UNDERHILL1927]

Didn’t you start a thread about Mark Drakeford?

He’s upset because of something that happened about a month ago. Needs to get over it.

[Maurice Swan]

Didn’t you start a thread about Mark Drakeford?

Yes I did, and said I could not stand him, but sympathised with his loss. It was still deleted.
Should not have been posted here and am pretty sure it's the only non football thread I have ever started .

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Yes I did, and said I could not stand him, but sympathised with his loss. It was still deleted.
Should not have been posted here and am pretty sure it's the only non football thread I have ever started .

Why does a non-football thread ire you so much? And why did you open it in the first place?
There is every opportunity to read up about Warnock's new job and the perilous state of the club on other threads.

[SuperBluebirds91]

Thanks for your kind comments and also from some people who obviously have questions. It’s probably better for me not to get too much into a debate about any of the issues as they could be harmful to me but also I don’t think it will resolve anything in a few posts. I also don’t have the energy but whatI will say is I’m just like anyone else. I get mad when city play bad, I cheer like we’ve just won the World Cup when we score a goal, I used swig beer in the canton stand and I need to pee in a toilet at half-time.
Women can be assaulted in a doctors office, a works office….basically anywhere, it has nothing to do with people who are transgender going into a toilet.

[Canton Kev]

Can a woman who cannot penetrate another woman with a penis she doesn't have be convicted of rape ?

No because the UK legal definition of rape is completely outdated to the point where basically only men can be convicted of rape. In UK law rape is defined as penetration by a penis without the other person’s consent.

In my opinion I don’t see the difference between a man forcing his penis into someone, or a woman forcing her fingers or an object into someone. One would be considered rape and the other would be considered sexual assault.

I doubt my parter would be comfortable if she went into the bathroom and bumped into a MtoF who’d been convicted of rape. Likewise if she went in and bumped into a woman who’d been convicted of sexually assaulting someone.

Would you be comfortable going for a piss and knowing the man stood next to you was a convicted gay rapist? Or had been convicted of GBH? Etc. I wouldn’t be personally. But public toilets are just that, public.

In the latest census 0.5% of the respondents said they identified as a different gender to the one they were born with. Let’s say roughly 0.25% of the UK are MtoF.

You’ve created a fake, hyper specific scenario that is extremely unrealistic and in doing so are ignoring the fact women can sexually assault other women.

I don’t think the trans debate is that simple or clear cut but this example you’ve created is akin to saying people convicted of a knife crime 10 years ago shouldn’t be allowed into B+Q because they sell sharp blades.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Thanks for your kind comments and also from some people who obviously have questions. It’s probably better for me not to get too much into a debate about any of the issues as they could be harmful to me but also I don’t think it will resolve anything in a few posts. I also don’t have the energy but whatI will say is I’m just like anyone else. I get mad when city play bad, I cheer like we’ve just won the World Cup when we score a goal, I used swig beer in the canton stand and I need to pee in a toilet at half-time.
Women can be assaulted in a doctors office, a works office….basically anywhere, it has nothing to do with people who are transgender going into a toilet.

They can but if a trans person who was a man but now a woman is able to access women's toilets , changing rooms , showers etc than that clearly gives such a person with a propensity to assault women a clear opportunity

[Divine Wright]

I think it's comparable to foreign people calling you "English" when you are Welsh or Scottish.

It's jarring/offensive/factually incorrect.

I worked with someone who is non-binary. I TRIED to refer to them as "they-them-their" because I'm not a complete cnut.

I slipped up occasionally but did my best to adjust.


.........I guess it was the same for people who would use racial slurs or (casual) sexist language and had to watch their tongue when such things became unacceptable in civilised society.

I never use the word "****" or "Chinky" or refer to my partner as the "ball and chain" and I don't think it inhibits my ability to express myself adequately. Nowadays, I try to avoid things like "man-made" or "policeman" ....it's not that tough.

[UNDERHILL1927]

Thanks for your kind comments and also from some people who obviously have questions. It’s probably better for me not to get too much into a debate about any of the issues as they could be harmful to me but also I don’t think it will resolve anything in a few posts. I also don’t have the energy but whatI will say is I’m just like anyone else. I get mad when city play bad, I cheer like we’ve just won the World Cup when we score a goal, I used swig beer in the canton stand and I need to pee in a toilet at half-time.
Women can be assaulted in a doctors office, a works office….basically anywhere, it has nothing to do with people who are transgender going into a toilet.

Good choice about not having the energy, with some in here you’d be wasting your time.

Thank you for sharing your experience, truly enlightening

[Pedro de la Rosa]

They can but if a trans person who was a man but now a woman is able to access women's toilets , changing rooms , showers etc than that clearly gives such a person with a propensity to assault women a clear opportunity

I don’t think a rapist is that bothered that they shouldn’t be in the women’s changing rooms. A sign on the door isn’t going to change their mind.

[dembethewarrior]

A woman who was born a man with the strength and power of a man who has a history of sexual offences against women ....when he was a man ......you think this person should be allowed into women's toilets , changing rooms etc ?

A woman coming onto a woman without consent of course happens but this person through changing is able to go into places she couldn't as a male

It's clearly a very dodgy situation

There is a fella who goes to a pub in an area near to where I live. They won't give him the op. I'm not sure if I call the person a them in this instance as they've not had any work..it's all too confusing tbh..anyway, they go in the pub from time to time and even though they are addressed by their preferred female name and wear women's clothing they've been told that they must use the men's toilet. That's not discrimination, they've not had an op. This person chooses to ignore this request and uses the women's, the people in there seem ok with it which is why I suppose it goes on, but it only takes one "non regular" to go into this pub and use the toilet and freak out when they see a man there in women's clothing. I have a teenage daughter and I'd be absolutely raging if they used the toilet at the same time.

Some people may not see the difference, as the person identifies as a woman, but for me they've been turned down for the op, whatever the reason may be and will never get to the point where they are fully changed from a man to a woman, I mean what is the correct way to go about this? It's all good a couple of pisshead locals giving it the ok but should it happen?

If they'd had the op they'd have no problem in there, but I know of people who aren't comfortable with the situation (that don't use the pub at the same time)

It's not wanting to discriminate, but what would be the correct way to go about this issue? Because to the naked eye it's a man dressed up as a woman with toilet tissue in their bra, using the women's toilet. That makes me uncomfortable, given my daughters age, and she has been in there at the same time in the past.

[dembethewarrior]

Yes I did, and said I could not stand him, but sympathised with his loss. It was still deleted.
Should not have been posted here and am pretty sure it's the only non football thread I have ever started .

You still banging on about your deleted thread. I've had loads get on with it..

[ToTaL ITK]

jesus christ! the ignorance in this thread is high.
Do any of you know any transgender people and you are aware that it's not only men that transition.