Sturgeon has gone and left the mess for someone else to sort out.

[JamesWales]

Sludgey is way off on this one. For Scotland read Norway of 50 years ago, for Wales read Ireland of 50 years ago. Slavish adoration of Labour is not a path forward for Wales.

Not sure it's quite as simple as that, and of course it took Ireland many decades to catch up, but catch up they did and I don't doubt that an independent Wales or Scotland (or North East England, or Isle of Wight or any other land mass would go onto have as viable future with good governance. There is no relationship between state size and success, although of course in terms of natural resources, size can help

That is probably Wales' greatest strength. A disproportionately large amount of wind, tides, water etc. In other areas we could compete with Everywhere in time and with education, investment and tax policies etc.

Long term is probably fine then. Short term, I don't think so. We would face a very large budget shortfall almost immediately and I'm not sure who would lend to us to plug that gap with a realistic expectation of getting their money back.

The ideological and identity issue is different of course, as this is 'more heart than head' but even there I feel strongly British so I don't feel any great aching for independence in that respect either.

With young kids, I just don't see it as being worth the risk really and I have seen very little to convince me otherwise.

[Eric Cartman]

why wouldn't Scotland "last long" ? what do you think would happen to it?
Other similar sized European countries do just fine, why do you think that Scotland couldn't?

Ireland was one of the poorest parts of the UK when it became independent, and no doubt people like you if it was happening today would be saying that they could never make it on their own - fast forward 100 years it is a richer country than the UK and soon to be absorbing a chunk of it.

Just to add to that. By the end of next year the average Slovenian will have more purchasing power than the average UK worker.

UK is stagnating and has been since 07/08, no reason why Scotland couldn't succeed after going independent. The main problem with the independence movement is how 'brexity' it is, your average independence supporter things it will solve every problem overnight. No clear plan means fannying around for years (as with brexit).

[Eric Cartman]

Not sure it's quite as simple as that, and of course it took Ireland many decades to catch up, but catch up they did and I don't doubt that an independent Wales or Scotland (or North East England, or Isle of Wight or any other land mass would go onto have as viable future with good governance. There is no relationship between state size and success, although of course in terms of natural resources, size can help

That is probably Wales' greatest strength. A disproportionately large amount of wind, tides, water etc. In other areas we could compete with Everywhere in time and with education, investment and tax policies etc.

Long term is probably fine then. Short term, I don't think so. We would face a very large budget shortfall almost immediately and I'm not sure who would lend to us to plug that gap with a realistic expectation of getting their money back.

The ideological and identity issue is different of course, as this is 'more heart than head' but even there I feel strongly British so I don't feel any great aching for independence in that respect either.

With young kids, I just don't see it as being worth the risk really and I have seen very little to convince me otherwise.

Ironically, apart from the young kids bit, that was my reason for voting remain. Not worth the risk.

[az city]

Ironically, apart from the young kids bit, that was my reason for voting remain. Not worth the risk.

I think you've spotted a fatal flaw in Jimbo's argument there.

[JamesWales]

Ironically, apart from the young kids bit, that was my reason for voting remain. Not worth the risk.

Yep, understandable. That was one of the main reasons people voted remain and largely explained why poorer people generally voted leave; because whatever the causes, the risks are more enticing when the status quo isn't serving you so well.

[az city]

Not sure it's quite as simple as that, and of course it took Ireland many decades to catch up, but catch up they did and I don't doubt that an independent Wales or Scotland (or North East England, or Isle of Wight or any other land mass would go onto have as viable future with good governance. There is no relationship between state size and success, although of course in terms of natural resources, size can help

That is probably Wales' greatest strength. A disproportionately large amount of wind, tides, water etc. In other areas we could compete with Everywhere in time and with education, investment and tax policies etc.

Long term is probably fine then. Short term, I don't think so. We would face a very large budget shortfall almost immediately and I'm not sure who would lend to us to plug that gap with a realistic expectation of getting their money back.

The ideological and identity issue is different of course, as this is 'more heart than head' but even there I feel strongly British so I don't feel any great aching for independence in that respect either.

With young kids, I just don't see it as being worth the risk really and I have seen very little to convince me otherwise.

I am asking this in a spirit of enquiry.

If you feel "British", why don't you relocate over the border? There is much more of that Billy Brit nonsense going on over there. (You do love borders, remember?)

I definitely feel Welsh ('though I am technically now an American). I even bought a home in Ceredigion last year because it felt more like "home" than Penylan.

[az city]

Yep, understandable. That was one of the main reasons people voted remain and largely explained why poorer people generally voted leave; because whatever the causes, the risks are more enticing when the status quo isn't serving you so well.

"Poor people" in the UK are going to suffer a lot more from being outside the EU than in it. "Poor people" voted leave because they were fed an absolute torrent of lies.

[JamesWales]

"Poor people" in the UK are going to suffer a lot more from being outside the EU than in it. "Poor people" voted leave because they were fed an absolute torrent of lies.

Oh two tropes in one message. Excellent work AZ!

[az city]

Oh two tropes in one message. Excellent work AZ!

Ah ok. It seems the right have now translated the word "truth" into "trope". Classic culture war bollocks straight from the bowels of Tufton Street.

[JamesWales]

Ah ok. It seems the right have now translated the word "truth" into "trope". Classic culture war bollocks straight from the bowels of Tufton Street.

"The right", "poor people are fed lies" and then you accuse others of culture war rhetoric! 🤣 Just because you say it it doesn't make it truth ya know..you are just pumping out tropes, hard to view it otherwise. Things are more complex than you present.

[JamesWales]

I am asking this in a spirit of enquiry.

If you feel "British", why don't you relocate over the border? There is much more of that Billy Brit nonsense going on over there. (You do love borders, remember?)

I definitely feel Welsh ('though I am technically now an American). I even bought a home in Ceredigion last year because it felt more like "home" than Penylan.

Because Wales is part of Britain, and whatever decisions people make on where they live are made on a great number of factors not just identity.

Good for you on your multiple homes and identities ,👍

[Doucas]

FpCvilmWYAAtC18.jpg

Thank god her reign of terror is over

[az city]

FpCvilmWYAAtC18.jpg

Thank god her reign of terror is over

Great leader for Scotland.

[az city]

Because Wales is part of Britain

Good for you on your multiple homes and identities ,��

One home and one identity: Wales and Welsh.

I must have missed the agreement of Wales to become part of Billy Britland. Can you remind me when we Welsh agreed to that?

[JamesWales]

One home and one identity: Wales and Welsh.

I must have missed the agreement of Wales to become part of Billy Britland. Can you remind me when we Welsh agreed to that?

There wasn't a referendum, but even if there was one several hundred years ago you can guarantee you would still be arguing about it.

[az city]

There wasn't a referendum, but even if there was one several hundred years ago you can guarantee you would still be arguing about it.

So you agree England occupied Wales. Is it OK with you to invade and subjugate neighbours?

[JamesWales]

So you agree England occupied Wales. Is it OK with you to invade and subjugate neighbours?

Of course England occupied Wales. So did Wessex occupy Eastern England and Northumbria occupied the midlands and Norwegians occupied parts of Northern England. At one point in our history Danish Vikings from Ireland occupied what is now north west England. You are talking about something that happened many hundreds of years ago.

If you wish to apply that to the modern world that is up to you I suppose, but it's not a particularly smart thing to do, and it's certainly a divisive outlook. A lot has happened since. I don't think Arizonians had a vote on leaving Mexico and becoming part of the United States either, does that mean you accuse anyone living there of being OK with invading and subjugating neighbours?

You can't get invited to that many parties if so!