Transgender women in German football

[Bluebirdman Of Alcathays]

Remember when New Zealand sent a trans Weightlifter to the the Olympics and people shit a collective brick over competitiveness, with Sharron "I won f*** all" Davies calling it an inherent "30% unfair advantage"?

Then they finished last.

Possibly cos he was in his 40s (although he didn't finish last). He also stopped another woman going to the Olympics instead.

[SuperBluebirds91]

I've been in the male bathroom when women have walked in, usually because their own toilet is full. Not once have I ever seen any male cause any kind of confrontation.

However, you claim trans women should be able to use the female toilets out of fear that they may be attacked in the male toilets. do you accept that there are women out there that feel like they may be attacked by trans women in female toilets, and if so, why should the rights of a trans woman supercede the rights of a woman?

Thanks for your reply. Personally I feel the debate in the public has got out of hand. Anyone could assault a woman in the woman’s toilets be it another woman or a guy who has just walked in there. Woman are at no further risk from trans women. There are violent people in all walks of life and yes some may include trans women or trans men or non binary etc etc. there are literally hundreds of other issues that are a problem for woman for example abuse in the home or workplace etc but one issue has come under the spot light and as said previously trans woman have been dragged into an argument IMO wrongly. Part of the issue is that many people dont believe that the feeling that you are trans (body parts do not align with your gender - how you feel inside) exists. They believe that somehow men are trying to take over but to me it just sounds ludicrous.

I do accept there are woman that fear being attacked by trans woman in the toilets. Much of the fear has come from wrong knowledge about trans woman and negative media. Remember when people were scared about HIV increase and that being somehow associated with gay men - all the negative media. Later discovered that this was due to infected blood transfusions. Gay men suffered the blame.
Remember when black people were targeted because somehow they were supposed to be inferior to white people as an example. Thank goodness many people have realised that none of this is true and moved forward. There will always be vulnerable groups attacked whether indirectly or directly. When they’ve finished targeting trans women it’ll probably be something else. I dread to think who it’ll be next but give it 20 odd years and mark my words they’ll be a new group to attack.

Rights for trans women are rights for women and vice versa. To me it’s all the same (no matter the body parts you are who you are) and body parts are going to make you a violent abuser/sexual assault etc - that’s to do with the person itself.

It appears hard to find a solution atm but personally I believe if there was more awareness about trans women and who they are - more visibility the very people who feel fearful would realise they are just anyone else.

Again just my opinions but ones with experience.

[Bluebirdman Of Alcathays]

You can't say men are going to attack women anyway so why bother having laws keeping men out of women's toilets. That's just enabling the issue. It's like saying houses get burgled all the time so it's not much point locking up tonight. Safeguards and boundaries and needed and unfortunately, they can't be governed by someone's feelings. Would you allow a physical adult male to be naked in a changing room where there are girls changing on the basis of his feelings?

[SuperBluebirds91]

[QUOTE=Bluebirdman Of Alcathays;5408730]You can't say men are going to attack women anyway so why bother having laws keeping men out of women's toilets. That's just enabling the issue. It's like saying houses get burgled all the time so it's not much point locking up tonight. Safeguards and boundaries and needed and unfortunately, they can't be governed by someone's feelings. Would you allow a physical adult male to be naked in a changing room where there are girls changing on the basis of his feelings?[/QUOTE

What Iam saying is that it will happen anyway - attacks will happen but letting trans women into the women’s toilets will not be anything todo with it. If a man assaults a women in a toilet it has nothing to do with a trans woman.
Cis Women also attack women in toilets - what safe guarding measures are in place to prevent this? That’s what I mean by attacks will occur if someone wants to they willing a way. Trans women have been using women’s toilets for decades - where are all the reports of attacks? After all the reporting of recent feminist groups i can hardly see that a guy wanting to commit a crime is now going to dress upto commit the crime - everyone’s going to be looking at them like a hawk!

Personally noone should be undressing in front of anyone else as in going naked! Cubicles are the only place IMO. I would hate anyone stranger naked in front of me a guy or a woman someone who is trans or not. If they don’t change the rules then I’m afraid woman are sadly still at the same risk level. Not to mention that trans men will continue to go into the woman’s toilets.

Toilets is always been a horrible issue for me personally. I’ve literally avoided going in them many a time when out as I hate being stared at or laughed at. I hate being told I’m in the wrong toilet. It’s pretty much led to accidents before as I hate going in there. I’ve been in mens toilets too but worried if anyone asks me a question and then wonders why my voice is so high pitched. Tbh using a toilet in public is pretty traumatic for any trans person.

[SuperBluebirds91]

You can't say men are going to attack women anyway so why bother having laws keeping men out of women's toilets. That's just enabling the issue. It's like saying houses get burgled all the time so it's not much point locking up tonight. Safeguards and boundaries and needed and unfortunately, they can't be governed by someone's feelings. Would you allow a physical adult male to be naked in a changing room where there are girls changing on the basis of his feelings?

Anyways ithink the topic has been discussed in depth and whether someone agrees, unsure or disagrees I personally can’t change people’s minds if that’s what they believe. The more knowledge or awareness though is often something that can alleviate fear though.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

I think that the toilets and changing room scenarios are a distraction from the main principle i.e. as to whether trans people choose to participate in sport against those who are disadvantaged by their presence.

[+ the native hipster]

Remember when New Zealand sent a trans Weightlifter to the the Olympics and people shit a collective brick over competitiveness, with Sharron "I won f*** all" Davies calling it an inherent "30% unfair advantage"?

Then they finished last.

i wonder if that had anything to do with east germany dosing their female swimmers with testosterone ? probly not

[Bluebirdman Of Alcathays]

I think that the toilets and changing room scenarios are a distraction from the main principle i.e. as to whether trans people choose to participate in sport against those who are disadvantaged by their presence.

Fair point but the example in the OP is another situation where the feelings of the biological male are taking precedence over the safety or concerns of women.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Fair point but the example in the OP is another situation where the feelings of the biological male are taking precedence over the safety or concerns of women.

I understand that completely.

[HiVis]

The trans community want everyone else to take their feelings into account, but don't seem to take anyone else's into account whatsoever.

Not every female is happy with a trans woman, especially one that is still intact, being in the same toilets. The reasons given are irrelevant, it's how some women feel.

In the case of SB, I doubt there's a male who cares if a trans man uses the male toilet. This issue seems to be a female issue and there is a reason for that. Despite men being twice as likely to suffer any kind of violent attack (rape, murder, assault), women feel more threatened being out and about than men do. If you're not biologically a woman, you're not going to fully appreciate that kind of vulnerability

[+ the native hipster]

The trans community want everyone else to take their feelings into account, but don't seem to take anyone else's into account whatsoever.

Not every female is happy with a trans woman, especially one that is still intact, being in the same toilets. The reasons given are irrelevant, it's how some women feel.

In the case of SB, I doubt there's a male who cares if a trans man uses the male toilet. This issue seems to be a female issue and there is a reason for that. Despite men being twice as likely to suffer any kind of violent attack (rape, murder, assault), women feel more threatened being out and about than men do. If you're not biologically a woman, you're not going to fully appreciate that kind of vulnerability

the misogamists of the future will be the ''women '' winston churchill , probly

[SuperBluebirds91]

Look which ever issue it is - the toilets, the sports, the prison, the support groups etc I think it works both ways - neither side will take into account anyone else’s views other than their own. I definitely don’t see any special treatment being given to trans women. Infact the complete opposite. All I see is them being dragged through the dirt and used as a scapegoat.To me being trans the reasons seems absolutely ridiculous (just my opinion but also many other trans people and others who can see through it). I don’t not see trans women making comments that drags women through the dirt! Yes people get angry and tbh I can see 100% why because it is so personal.

I 100% am for women’s rights and safe spaces. I have myself been on the end of an attack by a guy (not going into to details) when I was a child. So me of all people are very against women and young girls being out at risk. But I’m sorry using trans women to see say that somehow they endanger women is just ludicrous. Of course I can see what is being said - it allows a man (not a trans women) to enter the toilet without dressing up who could use the excuse - well I’m a trans woman. This could have literally been happening for decades - centuries - but it hasn’t. A man could also use any excuse to go into the women’s toilets - oh I’m cleaning sorry didn’t realise someone was in there, oh my wife is I’ll I’m checking on her, oppps sorry I accidently went into the wrong toilets or just sneaks in their when no one is around. I very much doubt now with all the attention that this has drawn the a guy would ever use that option because like I said - everyone’s going to be looking at any potential person going into the toilets.

Trans women (well it’s not always trans women - usually people who dress up as a women ‘transvestites”) have been portrayed in the media/films etc in a way that has been negative for many years. Perhaps quite abit of the confusion around trans woman has been linked with this? Quite often mocked or made out they are perverse in some way. For the record being transgender is very very different to being a transvestite. Not the same thing at all. You see things enough in a negative way you start to believe it as in a indirect bias.

I dont know what the solution is - I have no idea how they move forward with any of this. Trans people won’t ever back down whilst they fight for equal rights with everyone else but the opposing peoples views on current topics bought to light will likely also not back down because they believe they are being threatened by men - which is just not the case.

I guess more research into the sports and working towards finding a solution for all parties at present is the only way of moving forward.

The toilets I don’t know - I mean could you imagine having a neutral toilet for trans people? Talk about stick out like a sore thumb and a target for even more attacks. Like I said previously trans woman have already been using women’s toilets for along long time but suddenly now it’s a problem?

I really can’t say much more about it all now as it’s been discussed in depth and I appreciate you reading through my long replies.

For me personally I just hope in time views will alter and more people will realise that there Is no correlation between trans women and women’s safety.

Thanks for reading

[Robin Friday's Ghost]

The position of Stonewall and the trans community generally is "Some people are trans get over it". There is no room for compromise. If you suggest there should be then your are automatically transphobic. The posters in this thread who have raised objections would be seen as transphobic no matter that they might want to see trans people allowed to live their lives without prejudice. Feminists who objected to trans women being put into women's prisons were seen as transphobic.

All that is required is that we treat trans people with respect and allow them to live their lives as they want, and for trans people and the LGBT community to accept that there has to be limits to that. And this is one of them.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Look which ever issue it is - the toilets, the sports, the prison, the support groups etc I think it works both ways - neither side will take into account anyone else’s views other than their own. I definitely don’t see any special treatment being given to trans women. Infact the complete opposite. All I see is them being dragged through the dirt and used as a scapegoat.To me being trans the reasons seems absolutely ridiculous (just my opinion but also many other trans people and others who can see through it). I don’t not see trans women making comments that drags women through the dirt! Yes people get angry and tbh I can see 100% why because it is so personal.

I 100% am for women’s rights and safe spaces. I have myself been on the end of an attack by a guy (not going into to details) when I was a child. So me of all people are very against women and young girls being out at risk. But I’m sorry using trans women to see say that somehow they endanger women is just ludicrous. Of course I can see what is being said - it allows a man (not a trans women) to enter the toilet without dressing up who could use the excuse - well I’m a trans woman. This could have literally been happening for decades - centuries - but it hasn’t. A man could also use any excuse to go into the women’s toilets - oh I’m cleaning sorry didn’t realise someone was in there, oh my wife is I’ll I’m checking on her, oppps sorry I accidently went into the wrong toilets or just sneaks in their when no one is around. I very much doubt now with all the attention that this has drawn the a guy would ever use that option because like I said - everyone’s going to be looking at any potential person going into the toilets.

Trans women (well it’s not always trans women - usually people who dress up as a women ‘transvestites”) have been portrayed in the media/films etc in a way that has been negative for many years. Perhaps quite abit of the confusion around trans woman has been linked with this? Quite often mocked or made out they are perverse in some way. For the record being transgender is very very different to being a transvestite. Not the same thing at all. You see things enough in a negative way you start to believe it as in a indirect bias.

I dont know what the solution is - I have no idea how they move forward with any of this. Trans people won’t ever back down whilst they fight for equal rights with everyone else but the opposing peoples views on current topics bought to light will likely also not back down because they believe they are being threatened by men - which is just not the case.

I guess more research into the sports and working towards finding a solution for all parties at present is the only way of moving forward.

The toilets I don’t know - I mean could you imagine having a neutral toilet for trans people? Talk about stick out like a sore thumb and a target for even more attacks. Like I said previously trans woman have already been using women’s toilets for along long time but suddenly now it’s a problem?

I really can’t say much more about it all now as it’s been discussed in depth and I appreciate you reading through my long replies.

For me personally I just hope in time views will alter and more people will realise that there Is no correlation between trans women and women’s safety.

Thanks for reading

I attend evening classes in a college that has a label on the door of loos that they are not gender-aligned. They are singular loos accessible directly from the corridor (as opposed to numerous loos together) but it's a partial solution.

[SuperBluebirds91]

The position of Stonewall and the trans community generally is "Some people are trans get over it". There is no room for compromise. If you suggest there should be then your are automatically transphobic. The posters in this thread who have raised objections would be seen as transphobic no matter that they might want to see trans people allowed to live their lives without prejudice. Feminists who objected to trans women being put into women's prisons were seen as transphobic.

All that is required is that we treat trans people with respect and allow them to live their lives as they want, and for trans people and the LGBT community to accept that there has to be limits to that. And this is one of them.

For the record I personally don’t think anyone is transphobic on here - I see that people have taken the time to take in others views and in the main been respectful. Yes you always get some people who can be rude and take things too far but that happens anywhere.

I think most people are happy for trans people to just live their lives and get on with it. There are so many boundaries that trans people accept already and do so. I think personally people should continue to fight for women’s rights but leave trans women out of it. Trans women have been doing all these things for decades but there is rise in hate crime in general and especially lgbt+ community. Trans people are the most vulnerable so a very easy target.

With these rules though I can predict that sadly it will not be long before the next trans women is assault attacked or murdered in a men’s toilet. Also trans men will likely continue to go into the women’s toilet. To make a point I look like a guy I think like a guy but biologically I am not a guy - I have not changed my ID. But you wouldn’t ever know that Iam biologically a women looking at me. let’s see the women’s reaction when I next go into the women’s toilet! 🙄
They have been fighting to keep me in there!

[Robin Friday's Ghost]

For the record I personally don’t think anyone is transphobic on here - I see that people have taken the time to take in others views and in the main been respectful. Yes you always get some people who can be rude and take things too far but that happens anywhere.

I don't think anyone whose post I have read (I haven't read them all) has been transphobic either. But you will be aware that Stonewall in particular refuses to enter into any debate and insists that trans men and women have an absolute right to choose their gender and all that goes with it. I disagree and i think most posters in this thread do too. I accept there is a long way to go and some tricky problems to overcome but this complete lack of compromise doesn't help that and, in my view, is likely to add to transphobia not overcome it.

By the way, I don't think women have been fighting to keep you in women's toilets, they have been fighting to keep you out of men's, which I accept adds up to much the same thing. As I said, there are difficult problems to overcome.

[dembethewarrior]

"The toilets I don’t know - I mean could you imagine having a neutral toilet for trans people? Talk about stick out like a sore thumb and a target for even more attacks. Like I said previously trans woman have already been using women’s toilets for along long time but suddenly now it’s a problem?"

I think it is pretty easy to spot a trans person. I don't think a separate toilet would highlight this any differently.

Suddenly now it's a problem? We'll perhaps now, as more and more people are becoming trans and people who never saw them in their local area, and toilets in their local pubs etc are seeing them more, hence more people having an opinion.

I have given my opinion on this on another thread in the past, people are uncomfortable with it, there's nothing wrong with them having those sorts of feelings but a lot of people don't voice them as they're scared of a backlash and being "anti trans".

[SuperBluebirds91]

The position of Stonewall and the trans community generally is "Some people are trans get over it". There is no room for compromise. If you suggest there should be then your are automatically transphobic. The posters in this thread who have raised objections would be seen as transphobic no matter that they might want to see trans people allowed to live their lives without prejudice. Feminists who objected to trans women being put into women's prisons were seen as transphobic.

All that is required is that we treat trans people with respect and allow them to live their lives as they want, and for trans people and the LGBT community to accept that there has to be limits to that. And this is one of them.

I don't think anyone whose post I have read (I haven't read them all) has been transphobic either. But you will be aware that Stonewall in particular refuses to enter into any debate and insists that trans men and women have an absolute right to choose their gender and all that goes with it. I disagree and i think most posters in this thread do too. I accept there is a long way to go and some tricky problems to overcome but this complete lack of compromise doesn't help that and, in my view, is likely to add to transphobia not overcome it.

By the way, I don't think women have been fighting to keep you in women's toilets, they have been fighting to keep you out of men's, which I accept adds up to much the same thing. As I said, there are difficult problems to overcome.

With the proposed bathroom laws if they get passed - it will mean that someone who hasn’t transitioned like me ( a trans guy) will have to stick to the toilet that matches my biology. That will be me being kept in women’s toilets - but I’m a guy! This is the daft thing about it. They are actually allowing more men in them! But it should be noted that this comes from many people who don’t believe that being trans is real.

I don’t really know what stonewalls motto is etc - I am only speaking from my experience and the fact I know quite a few trans women. Most of who feel they’ve already made so many compromises - some of course not relating to this issue. Trans women already felt in a lot of danger just by trying to go to the toilet but this will now leave some in a lot more.

I just don’t think that many people can understand the sheer scale of trauma that trans people go through. This is not about oh poor me - it’s like please leave us alone - we’ve been through enough already. That’s really what it boils down to. Trans people are 4 times more likely to be assaulted than any other group of people.

[TWGL1]

It looks more like you didn't really follow what he was saying

Whether he did or whether didn’t , is there really any reason for you to comment , not really, but then that’s what’s you do isn’t it…..

[SuperBluebirds91]

It is important to point out that my personal views are the only person here representing the trans community. I am also a trans guy so I don’t represent trans woman aswell. I also don’t represent the entire trans community. I have lots of experience but there may well be other trans people on this board who haven’t commented or feel my views aren’t correct. Equally they may feel that I haven’t been as strong in my approach as I should be. Perhaps I should have put my views across differently.

But the people to speak to would be a trans women in order to get a proper discussion going. I know for a fact that I am not the only trans Cardiff fan!

Anyway I know I said it before but perhaps I think the debate from me should be left here. I am however always happy to answer any general questions if anyone has any Aslong as respectful - for example not questions such as excuse me what is in your pants?

I will let others continue on with the discussion now and more about the trans women in Sports etc.

[Rjk]

In terms of who goes in which bathroom, like many cis men I couldn't care less. if men, women, trans men or trans women are using the same toilet facilities as me.
Hell if someone wants to pee next to me at a urinal then live and let live, as long as they don't get any on my shoes.

As for the cubicle I doubt my toilet experience is going to be affected in any way by whoever is in the next one, so why should I care?

As it is over the years I find myself seriously questioning the dietary habits of some of my fellow office workers.
In my current place of work there's one unknown guy who has to expend so much effort in dropping the kids off that I genuinely worry that he'll have a heart attack - and another at the opposite end of the scale who 0.5 seconds after closing the door it sounds like they're emptying a bucket full of salmon into a wheelie bin. If i'm not going to let that put me off playing whatever mobile game I'm playing in there then I'm hardly going to let a trans person bother me.

I don't think it is for me to say though who should be allowed to enter women's only spaces - that discussion is for the women to have.

[dembethewarrior]

In terms of who goes in which bathroom, like many cis men I couldn't care less. if men, women, trans men or trans women are using the same toilet facilities as me.
Hell if someone wants to pee next to me at a urinal then live and let live, as long as they don't get any on my shoes.

As for the cubicle I doubt my toilet experience is going to be affected in any way by whoever is in the next one, so why should I care?

As it is over the years I find myself seriously questioning the dietary habits of some of my fellow office workers.
In my current place of work there's one unknown guy who has to expend so much effort in dropping the kids off that I genuinely worry that he'll have a heart attack - and another at the opposite end of the scale who 0.5 seconds after closing the door it sounds like they're emptying a bucket full of salmon into a wheelie bin. If i'm not going to let that put me off playing whatever mobile game I'm playing in there then I'm hardly going to let a trans person bother me.

I don't think it is for me to say though who should be allowed to enter women's only spaces - that discussion is for the women to have.

Are we allowed to have an opinion if we've talked to women and people we know that are uncomfortable with it and express that on here?

[HiVis]

That will be me being kept in women’s toilets - but I’m a guy!

Genuine question here, but what does it matter which toilet you have to use?

[Divine Wright]

Is the future just one mixed game open to all?

It'd make things a whole lot easier , that's for sure.

Things that will be reflected upon in 2223 and considered ****in dull as fck ........ gender segregation, maniacal use of fossil fuels ...... probably some other stuff too....nukes n shit.



..........If you are reading this two hundred years in the future as part of some history doctorate of book research or something......just know that dembethekuntwarrior and kunt from mars (It's bantz, lads. Don't get your non-transgender knickers in a twist) are not entirely representative of the fan base of Cardiff City FC (if you know what that is).

Also, are there robot dogs with machine guns on their backs killing everyone ?

[Divine Wright]

All that is required is that we treat trans people with respect and allow them to live their lives as they want, and for trans people and the LGBT community to accept that there has to be limits to that. And this is one of them.

What a problematic sentence that is. Contradictory. Condescending. That's how it reads on paper at least.

I don't think anyone is in a position to prescribe limitations on others based on who they are.

You are this, so you can't do this.

Maybe if you are a kid or something, adults can tell you not to bet on the horses n shit.....but beyond that, telling another adult to "know their place" ......hmmmm, dunno ......