Why are Drakeford and Sadiq Khan trying to stop cars in their City's ?

[az city]

I think that's up for debate really, esp if you compare it to other cities.

Nonetheless, I don't even have a huge issue with it, and I don't live there. But I certainly don't support it in provincial UK cities, esp without dramatic improvements in public transport

It isn't "up for debate". Usual refusal from you to admit your pontification on something you have zero expertise in was wrong.

[az city]

Central London congestion has in fact reduced since the congestion charge. I wish people would do their research and post on the basis of the facts rather than what their prejudices lead them to want to think.

You are correct.

[JamesWales]

Your usual bollocks:

Transport for London (TfL) (January 2014). "Public and stakeholder consultation on a Variation Order to modify the Congestion Charging scheme Impact Assessment" (PDF). TfL. Retrieved 15 February 2015. See pp. 12: Traffic volume, speed and congestion

You (in your usual rude manner) quote a non independent source from 8 years ago.

Here's one from January that quite literally states that London is the most congested city on earth, according to a traffic analysis company (who clearly, like everyone else on earth, know less about this than you)

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-64219939

https://inrix.com/scorecard/

There are different ways to measure congestion, but quite clearly it is up for debate as to whether the London congestion charge has worked, despite what you happen to think. You aren't always right!

[az city]

You (in your usual rude manner) quote a non independent source from 8 years ago.

Here's one from January that quite literally states that London is the most congested city on earth, according to a traffic analysis company (who clearly, like everyone else on earth, know less about this than you)

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-64219939

https://inrix.com/scorecard/

There are different ways to measure congestion, but quite clearly it is up for debate as to whether the London congestion charge has worked, despite what you happen to think. You aren't always right!

You spout a lot of one-eyed lazy, uninformed bollocks. That's fact and not rude. I have nothing against you personally. How could I? Correct me if I'm wrong, we have never met.

You don't like it when people robustly disagree with you which is an odd characteristic for someone on an online debate forum.

[JamesWales]

You spout a lot of one-eyed lazy, uninformed bollocks. That's fact and not rude. I have nothing against you personally. How could I? Correct me if I'm wrong, we have never met.

You don't like it when people robustly disagree with you which is an odd characteristic for someone on an online debate forum.

Your second paragraph there is genuinely the most ironic thing I have ever heard on this forum!

Note that when you posted an eight year old study, I responded with one from 2022. You haven't addressed that, you've just said I spout one-eyed lazy uninformed bollocks.

But expertise in this area have reported London as the most congested city of 1000 studied globally. Here, I will post them again for you. Inrix are a global traffic data company, their report is mere months old.

https://inrix.com/scorecard/
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-64219939

Quite obviously the success or otherwise of the congestion charge is up for debate.

[Wales-Bales]

You spout a lot of one-eyed lazy, uninformed bollocks. That's fact and not rude. I have nothing against you personally. How could I? Correct me if I'm wrong, we have never met.

You don't like it when people robustly disagree with you which is an odd characteristic for someone on an online debate forum.

Serious question, have you ever been wrong about anything?

[az city]

Your second paragraph there is genuinely the most ironic thing I have ever heard on this forum!

Note that when you posted an eight year old study, I responded with one from 2022. You haven't addressed that, you've just said I spout one-eyed lazy uninformed bollocks.

But expertise in this area have reported London as the most congested city of 1000 studied globally.

Quite obviously the success of the congestion charge is up for debate.

I'll waste some of my time on this. Try to keep up.

Do you know what a counterfactual is? What do you think would have happened to measures of congestion in London absent the congestion charge? What counterfactual time series that would look like? That's the baseline a modeler would use to examine the efficacy of the congestion charge.

There is no reputable study that demonstrates the congestion charge did not reduce any measures of congestion posited in the counterfactual. None.

What you quoted in the BBC article was a private sector organization's puff piece about the level of congestion in major cities. It isn't serious research. It contains no analysis attempting to explain the variations in levels of congestion.

[az city]

Serious question, have you ever been wrong about anything?

Yeah, I thought you had an ounce of humility.

[Wales-Bales]

Yeah, I thought you had an ounce of humility.

Many people are confused by the Trump verdict, yet you are certain that the case is beyond question. I was was just pointing out some of the inconsistencies, and it's probably going to be appealed, so I will keep an open mind on the matter. Similarly with the Biden clan too. It's time for a big clean-up in politics and the media, and to bring an end to all this divide and conquer tribalism.

[Parti Mellow]

Just trying to cut a bit of slack to the working class motorist. I think more roads should be built and petrol down to fifty pence per litre. In turn the economy will boom and prices will generally come down. As a replacement tax what about taxing people on the amount they flush the toilet, if the counting the dumps becomes unworkable?

[TWGL1]

Just trying to cut a bit of slack to the working class motorist. I think more roads should be built and petrol down to fifty pence per litre. In turn the economy will boom and prices will generally come down. As a replacement tax what about taxing people on the amount they flush the toilet, if the counting the dumps becomes unworkable?

The way it’s going, it won’t be long before we see tradesmen with their ladders catching the tube ,imagine that in the morning rush hour

[JamesWales]

I'll waste some of my time on this. Try to keep up.

Do you know what a counterfactual is? What do you think would have happened to measures of congestion in London absent the congestion charge? What counterfactual time series that would look like? That's the baseline a modeler would use to examine the efficacy of the congestion charge.

There is no reputable study that demonstrates the congestion charge did not reduce any measures of congestion posited in the counterfactual. None.

What you quoted in the BBC article was a private sector organization's puff piece about the level of congestion in major cities. It isn't serious research. It contains no analysis attempting to explain the variations in levels of congestion.

Of course I know what counterfactual is. But you can't hide behind that. We don't know what would have happened to congestion (which can be measured in different ways) had the charge not been applied. Have you looked at traffic patterns in cities and city centres of places that didn't implement a congestion charge?

Here's just one: Newcastle, which shows falls in car use over the same time
https://roadtraffic.dft.gov.uk/local-authorities/172.

Moreover, you simply dismiss a report on a study of 1000 cities because it doesn't suit your confirmation bias.

On this, you are wrong. It absolutely is up for debate how successful the London congestion charge is.

I know you think you know everything, but I'm afraid you don't.

[cyril evans awaydays]

Of course I know what counterfactual is. But you can't hide behind that. We don't know what would have happened to congestion (which can be measured in different ways) had the charge not been applied. Have you looked at traffic patterns in cities and city centres of places that didn't implement a congestion charge?

Here's just one: Newcastle, which shows falls in car use over the same time
https://roadtraffic.dft.gov.uk/local-authorities/172.

Moreover, you simply dismiss a report on a study of 1000 cities because it doesn't suit your confirmation bias.

On this, you are wrong. It absolutely is up for debate how successful the London congestion charge is.

I know you think you know everything, but I'm afraid you don't.

Some good stats there.

Here is inner city Wandsworth

https://roadtraffic.dft.gov.uk/local-authorities/108

And here is Cardiff over the same period.

https://roadtraffic.dft.gov.uk/local-authorities/19

[az city]

Of course I know what counterfactual is. But you can't hide behind that. We don't know what would have happened to congestion (which can be measured in different ways) had the charge not been applied. Have you looked at traffic patterns in cities and city centres of places that didn't implement a congestion charge?

Here's just one: Newcastle, which shows falls in car use over the same time
https://roadtraffic.dft.gov.uk/local-authorities/172.

Moreover, you simply dismiss a report on a study of 1000 cities because it doesn't suit your confirmation bias.

On this, you are wrong. It absolutely is up for debate how successful the London congestion charge is.

I know you think you know everything, but I'm afraid you don't.

I tried to explain the very basics of how modeling is done on this, you failed to listen. That's kinda rude, Jimbo.

[Wales-Bales]

Hypothetical discussions are all well and good, but the real outcomes will only be known after all the cars are gone. Once all forms of transport are government controlled, everybody will be at their mercy regarding free movement in your own country. We already had a taster during the pandemic with the enforcement of essential travel restrictions, quarantine regulations, and 5 mile travel limits.

[the other bob wilson]

Hypothetical discussions are all well and good, but the real outcomes will only be known after all the cars are gone. Once all forms of transport are government controlled, everybody will be at their mercy regarding free movement in your own country. We already had a taster during the pandemic with the enforcement of essential travel restrictions, quarantine regulations, and 5 mile travel limits.

if the plan is to have the same sort of restrictions as in the lockdowns,. why didn't Governments all over the world find a reason to keep the Covid restrictions in place once they had us "at their mercy"?

[jon1959]

Hypothetical discussions are all well and good, but the real outcomes will only be known after all the cars are gone. Once all forms of transport are government controlled, everybody will be at their mercy regarding free movement in your own country. We already had a taster during the pandemic with the enforcement of essential travel restrictions, quarantine regulations, and 5 mile travel limits.

That's taking me back to my days on the Sheffield buses in the mid 80s. All local government owned and run, loads of buses on all routes and low fares. As a result car usage was far lower than for every other comparable city. But you are right - it was hell!

[Wales-Bales]

if the plan is to have the same sort of restrictions as in the lockdowns,. why didn't Governments all over the world find a reason to keep the Covid restrictions in place once they had us "at their mercy"?

I don't want to get into everything they got wrong with the pandemic, but I wouldn't worry too much at your age, and if you don't have any kids you have even less less to worry about. As an aside, some schools in Wales have been rehearsing lockdowns for climate emergency and civil unrest this week.

[JamesWales]

I tried to explain the very basics of how modeling is done on this, you failed to listen. That's kinda rude, Jimbo.

You have become a parody!

[Wales-Bales]

You have become a parody!

I wouldn't go that far, he's just all in on a singular narrative, as many others are.

[Wales-Bales]

That's taking me back to my days on the Sheffield buses in the mid 80s. All local government owned and run, loads of buses on all routes and low fares. As a result car usage was far lower than for every other comparable city. But you are right - it was hell!

Back in those days the main concern was getting the workers to work, and keeping the economy growing.

[Heathblue]

That's taking me back to my days on the Sheffield buses in the mid 80s. All local government owned and run, loads of buses on all routes and low fares. As a result car usage was far lower than for every other comparable city. But you are right - it was hell!

You must have been Blakey and not Butler 🤣🤣🤣🤣

[jon1959]

You must have been Blakey and not Butler ��������

I was Jack Harper (although less than half his age).

[Dorcus]

Hypothetical discussions are all well and good, but the real outcomes will only be known after all the cars are gone. Once all forms of transport are government controlled, everybody will be at their mercy regarding free movement in your own country. We already had a taster during the pandemic with the enforcement of essential travel restrictions, quarantine regulations, and 5 mile travel limits.

Sounds bliss to me.

[HiVis]

That's taking me back to my days on the Sheffield buses in the mid 80s. All local government owned and run, loads of buses on all routes and low fares. As a result car usage was far lower than for every other comparable city. But you are right - it was hell!

for balance, Cardiff Bus and Transport for Wales is local/national government owned, and is none of what you describe