If someone had told me

**Father Dougal** · 19-05-23, 18:04

Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Are you sure about this?

I was 4 when Williams was sacked so I know virtually nothing about those times. However, in the 5 seasons before the relegation season of 1982, our two highest finishes were 9th and 15th, having also finished 18th, 19th twice and then 20th to suffer relegation.

In fact, since the 3rd placed finish in 1971 until 1982 we finished in the top half of Division 2 only once more, suffered one relegation in 1975 and finished 17th or lower in Division 2 on 8 occasions. On the face of the stats alone they don't appear to show much promise, so I'm interested to learn more about the club at the time.

Just by way of comparison, between 2006 and 2021 we managed 13 top half finishes in the Championship in 14 seasons. We've never had it so good in this division. In fact, I think 4 bottom half finishes in the last 18 Championship seasons is pretty good going.

And the only we missed was 2006/07. We came 13th and were about 10 points clear in october. Hardly an awful season.

And yes the years 2001-2021 were a brilliant 20 years really. I know about the 1920s but apart from that have we had a better 20 years?

**Eric the Half a Bee** · 19-05-23, 20:19

Originally Posted by Father Dougal

And the only we missed was 2006/07. We came 13th and were about 10 points clear in october. Hardly an awful season.

And yes the years 2001-2021 were a brilliant 20 years really. I know about the 1920s but apart from that have we had a better 20 years?

I can answer that statistically....

It's easy enough to create a rolling average of our league position for a 20 year period.

For every league position outside the top flight, add the number of teams in the divisions above, so 1st in the Championship would be 21st in the league, 20th in League 1 would be 64th etc. Use those figures then to create an average.

That might not be well explained, but for the seasons 2003/04 to 2022/23, our average league position is 28.5, or 8.5th in the Championship. I think that is mighty impressive for a side that has only spent 2 seasons in the top division. Over the last 20 seasons our average position is actually ranked 25th.

Our highest average position over 20 seasons was from 1947/48 to 1966/67, which was 26.5. We spent 7 seasons out of 10 in the top flight between those seasons but, after relegation in 1962, our Division 2 performances weren't great. In fact, the last 20 seasons and those seasons from the 40s to the end of the 60s have been the best 20 year spells in our history.

Over the last 20 seasons, here's the top 40 teams in terms of rank of average position. I think it puts to bed any notion that we're not currently a big club.

1 Manchester United
2 Chelsea
3 Arsenal
4 Liverpool
5 Manchester City
6 Tottenham Hotspur
7 Everton
8 Newcastle United
9 West Ham United
10 Aston Villa
11 Fulham
12 West Bromwich Albion
13 Southampton
14 Leicester City
15 Stoke City
16 Crystal Palace
17 Wolverhampton Wanderers
18 Middlesbrough
19 Burnley
20 Blackburn Rovers
21 Watford
22 Sunderland
23 Norwich City
24 Birmingham City
25 Cardiff City
26 Reading
27 Wigan Athletic
28 Swansea City
29 Leeds United
30 Bolton Wanderers
31 Queens Park Rangers
32 Derby County
33 Sheffield United
34 Hull City
35 Brighton & Hove Albion
36 Nottingham Forest
37 Ipswich Town
38 Preston North End
39 Charlton Athletic
40 Bristol City

**AdrianAlston** · 20-05-23, 08:21

Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Are you sure about this?

I was 4 when Williams was sacked so I know virtually nothing about those times. However, in the 5 seasons before the relegation season of 1982, our two highest finishes were 9th and 15th, having also finished 18th, 19th twice and then 20th to suffer relegation.

In fact, since the 3rd placed finish in 1971 until 1982 we finished in the top half of Division 2 only once more, suffered one relegation in 1975 and finished 17th or lower in Division 2 on 8 occasions. On the face of the stats alone they don't appear to show much promise, so I'm interested to learn more about the club at the time.

Just by way of comparison, between 2006 and 2021 we managed 13 top half finishes in the Championship in 14 seasons. We've never had it so good in this division. In fact, I think 4 bottom half finishes in the last 18 Championship seasons is pretty good going.

I appreciate how it looks statistically, but we played good football under Andrews and Morgan and we made some big signings; Robson, Moore, Kitchen, Robson, Burns, Roberts, Bennett etc. We had some really promising kids; Sayer, Giles, Pontin, Jones, Mickalef, Maddy, Davies and Dibble and we started every season with optimism.

And we had the greatest kit in the history of football kits.

Maybe it was the blind passion of youth (I was 15 when Williams was sacked) but looking back through nostalgic rose tinted spectacles they seemed exciting halcyon days.

There was a strong local influence in the team; the 75-76 promotion winning squad had Dwyer, Showers, Pontin, Attley, Sayer, Giles and Morgan all who had come through the apprentice system as well as Villars and Reece both local lads. We also had the Welsh Captain, Mike England. If you haven't read Paul's excellent book on that year, you should.

**lincoln blue** · 20-05-23, 08:37

Originally Posted by William Treseder

So many Bellends on here 😁

I'll second that!

**A Quiet Monkfish** · 20-05-23, 08:41

Originally Posted by Father Dougal

And the only we missed was 2006/07. We came 13th and were about 10 points clear in october. Hardly an awful season.

And yes the years 2001-2021 were a brilliant 20 years really. I know about the 1920s but apart from that have we had a better 20 years?

No. Watching City in front of 1500 I'd accepted that was the way it was always going to be. Rick Wright ignited a momentary spark, but it was Sam Hammam - sorry folks - who started the rollercoaster 2 decades. Promotions, play-offs, cup runs, cup finals, top flight football, some really, really decent players. It's been great. I just hope the club doesn't start slipping back, because that's exactly what it feels like at the moment.

**AdrianAlston** · 20-05-23, 08:50

Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

No. Watching City in front of 1500 I'd accepted that was the way it was always going to be. Rick Wright ignited a momentary spark, but it was Sam Hammam - sorry folks - who started the rollercoaster 2 decades. Promotions, play-offs, cup runs, cup finals, top flight football, some really, really decent players. It's been great. I just hope the club doesn't start slipping back, because that's exactly what it feels like at the moment.

Spot on.

Although the Club infrastructure and the City (status and population) are too great for us to slip back to the 80's/90's

We could have a couple of rubbish years whilst Tan sells the club, but that is as bad as it will be.

**Eric the Half a Bee** · 20-05-23, 21:16

Originally Posted by AdrianAlston

I appreciate how it looks statistically, but we played good football under Andrews and Morgan and we made some big signings; Robson, Moore, Kitchen, Robson, Burns, Roberts, Bennett etc. We had some really promising kids; Sayer, Giles, Pontin, Jones, Mickalef, Maddy, Davies and Dibble and we started every season with optimism.

And we had the greatest kit in the history of football kits.

Maybe it was the blind passion of youth (I was 15 when Williams was sacked) but looking back through nostalgic rose tinted spectacles they seemed exciting halcyon days.

There was a strong local influence in the team; the 75-76 promotion winning squad had Dwyer, Showers, Pontin, Attley, Sayer, Giles and Morgan all who had come through the apprentice system as well as Villars and Reece both local lads. We also had the Welsh Captain, Mike England. If you haven't read Paul's excellent book on that year, you should.

Thank you for that, it was an interesting read and I totally understand and share that excitement of youth. I wonder what younger teenagers make of things nowadays?

It's interesting to see how many players came through from the locality. That's something we rarely experience any more. From my earlier days of supporting the club, it was always the Welsh boys that I tended to look more favourably on. Earnshaw was my first real City idol and probably has never been truly replaced. That Leeds cup win was that tad more special as a Rhondda boy scored the winner. I took a lot of pride in seeing City youngsters move up the footballing ladder.

**SLUDGE FACTORY** · 20-05-23, 21:37

Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

I can answer that statistically....

It's easy enough to create a rolling average of our league position for a 20 year period.

For every league position outside the top flight, add the number of teams in the divisions above, so 1st in the Championship would be 21st in the league, 20th in League 1 would be 64th etc. Use those figures then to create an average.

That might not be well explained, but for the seasons 2003/04 to 2022/23, our average league position is 28.5, or 8.5th in the Championship. I think that is mighty impressive for a side that has only spent 2 seasons in the top division. Over the last 20 seasons our average position is actually ranked 25th.

Our highest average position over 20 seasons was from 1947/48 to 1966/67, which was 26.5. We spent 7 seasons out of 10 in the top flight between those seasons but, after relegation in 1962, our Division 2 performances weren't great. In fact, the last 20 seasons and those seasons from the 40s to the end of the 60s have been the best 20 year spells in our history.

Over the last 20 seasons, here's the top 40 teams in terms of rank of average position. I think it puts to bed any notion that we're not currently a big club.

1 Manchester United
2 Chelsea
3 Arsenal
4 Liverpool
5 Manchester City
6 Tottenham Hotspur
7 Everton
8 Newcastle United
9 West Ham United
10 Aston Villa
11 Fulham
12 West Bromwich Albion
13 Southampton
14 Leicester City
15 Stoke City
16 Crystal Palace
17 Wolverhampton Wanderers
18 Middlesbrough
19 Burnley
20 Blackburn Rovers
21 Watford
22 Sunderland
23 Norwich City
24 Birmingham City
25 Cardiff City
26 Reading
27 Wigan Athletic
28 Swansea City
29 Leeds United
30 Bolton Wanderers
31 Queens Park Rangers
32 Derby County
33 Sheffield United
34 Hull City
35 Brighton & Hove Albion
36 Nottingham Forest
37 Ipswich Town
38 Preston North End
39 Charlton Athletic
40 Bristol City

The top 10 are big clubs

We are 25th

**Eric the Half a Bee** · 20-05-23, 21:54

Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

The top 10 are big clubs

We are 25th

The top 10 are massive clubs. We're a big club that have done better than lots of clubs you call "big clubs".

**SLUDGE FACTORY** · 20-05-23, 22:10

Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

The top 10 are massive clubs. We're a big club that have done better than lots of clubs you call "big clubs".

We are not a big club , don't be silly

Wolves , Forest , Derby , Leeds , Wednesday , Sheffield United

Those are big clubs

We COULD be a big club , we have the potential but I can't see it ever happening

**the other bob wilson** · 21-05-23, 05:58

Originally Posted by Father Dougal

Nah I disagree with this.

What defines enjoyment and even success in football isn't what level you are at. Eg last season we came much higher in the pyramid than 1993, yet should we be celebrating and praising more so than in 1993? Of course not.

Everton fans should be amongst the happiest around being in the Premier league for so long. Are they? Wrexham should be miserable they are still only league 2.

For me success and enjoyment is pretty much the same at any level. Eg you use man City as an example but their 3rd tier play off final win v Gillingham was probably more exciting and tense than when they win the champions league in a few weeks.

Well said, there's always a context. I'm as disillusioned with City currently as I've ever been. I accept that our current situation is an improvement on what we saw during the years 1985 to 2003 if you look at things without context. However, once you start doing that, relying on points deductions for other teams to stay in the Championship, being one of the biggest soft touches around when we play at home, a lack of skilful, attacking football at home and away, an Academy that has virtually stopped performing its main function in the last decade and more and the fact that the club is a laughing stock, it all looks pretty pathetic when you consider that we've had a multi millionaire/billionaire owner for the last thirteen years.

**William Treseder** · 21-05-23, 06:12

Originally Posted by Father Dougal

Nah I disagree with this.

What defines enjoyment and even success in football isn't what level you are at. Eg last season we came much higher in the pyramid than 1993, yet should we be celebrating and praising more so than in 1993? Of course not.

Everton fans should be amongst the happiest around being in the Premier league for so long. Are they? Wrexham should be miserable they are still only league 2.

For me success and enjoyment is pretty much the same at any level. Eg you use man City as an example but their 3rd tier play off final win v Gillingham was probably more exciting and tense than when they win the champions league in a few weeks.

What is it you are disagreeing with? I never said in the opening post that I’m enjoying watching the City at the moment. Go back to the era I’m talking about, when we were in the old 4th division. Would you have believed you’d go on see the City play at Wembley 5 times including an FA and League cup final?

**William Treseder** · 21-05-23, 06:38

Originally Posted by insider

Man City are 3 games away from the 3 trophies not 2

No. They are 2 games away 😂

**A Quiet Monkfish** · 21-05-23, 07:36

Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Well said, there's always a context. I'm as disillusioned with City currently as I've ever been. I accept that our current situation is an improvement on what we saw during the years 1985 to 2003 if you look at things without context. However, once you start doing that, relying on points deductions for other teams to stay in the Championship, being one of the biggest soft touches around when we play at home, a lack of skilful, attacking football at home and away, an Academy that has virtually stopped performing its main function in the last decade and more and the fact that the club is a laughing stock, it all looks pretty pathetic when you consider that we've had a multi millionaire/billionaire owner for the last thirteen years.

Yes, but he's 5000 miles away. for me, that's the problem and always has been. you just cannot run a big club successfully without a strong, full-time management structure in place. At least in the Ridsdale/Hammam years you always felt the club was a 'living' entity. now it feels cut off, adrift, with an owner the other side of the planet and two people with better things to do.

**AdrianAlston** · 21-05-23, 08:43

Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Well said, there's always a context. I'm as disillusioned with City currently as I've ever been. I accept that our current situation is an improvement on what we saw during the years 1985 to 2003 if you look at things without context. However, once you start doing that, relying on points deductions for other teams to stay in the Championship, being one of the biggest soft touches around when we play at home, a lack of skilful, attacking football at home and away, an Academy that has virtually stopped performing its main function in the last decade and more and the fact that the club is a laughing stock, it all looks pretty pathetic when you consider that we've had a multi millionaire/billionaire owner for the last thirteen years.

It may be a slip of the pen, but I'd contend that the Academy has been performing it's function. It's just that successive managers have ignored it's progeny. The treatment of Eli King when he returned was baffling. The real problem has been the size of our squad.

Man City, post January have been competing in 3 comps with 19 senior players backed up by a couple of kids (who admittedly are very good). They even saw fit to loan Cancelo out with no replacement. We had 27 senior players. We shouldn't have signed Rinhomota and Sawyers, we should have signed one midfielder who was a class above. The same with Romeo and Campbell (especially when we already had Ng). Last summers recruitment was baffling. Although, I do believe Etete could develop into a serious player. The rest were pants.

**Bobby Dandruff** · 21-05-23, 09:30

Originally Posted by William Treseder

When i was a young innocent 14/15 yr old regularly going down the City and watching old division 4 dross, that I’d go on to see my team play 5 times at Wembley, including 2 cup finals, I’d have laughed in their face.
Same must apply to Man City fans who were there when they were in the 3rd tier, being told they’d be 2 games from being League, FA cup and European champions.