A fourth by election looming.

[the other bob wilson]

Another awkward test for the Government, but this one doesn't appear to have anything to do with Johnson's resignation.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-65941710

[Dorcus]

Another awkward test for the Government, but this one doesn't appear to have anything to do with Johnson's resignation.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-65941710

Is this shaping up as Rishi's ***** horribilis? It must certainly be squeaky **** time!

[Wales-Bales]

More Kabuki theatre, just stick everything on a timeline and see if your life gets better or worse.

[pipster]

More Kabuki theatre, just stick everything on a timeline and see if your life gets better or worse.

When we had the Blair / Brown years - I did pretty well out of them. They embarked on a massive NHS IT systems that kept me in beans for a while. It obviously ended in failure when it became so massive Brown just kept chucking money at the project (that never works).

And then we found out that his amazing stewardship of the economy , getting growth of 3-3.5% per years etc - was actually down to his PFI initiative that didnt seem to appear on the books - it went on the never never - so Health / Schools etc would take 3 times the cost to build.

Ed Balls and his school rebuilding program where he'd spunked over 50% of the budget without even a brick being laid. I guess we'll forget about Brown selling all the gold at rock bottom prices and the 'lose hand on the tiller" when it came to financial regulations that ultimately did for him, with teh sub/prime crash in the states.

So in some ways - getting someone with the same political and economic mindset as Brown may not be a bad thing in the short term for me.

But in general, as it always seems to - it will lead to the letter in the desk saying 'all the moneys gone'.

When when Starma cant say whether a woman can have a penis or whether Eddy Suzy Izzard should not be allowed on an all woman shortlist.

If Starma and Raynor dont win - the Labour party are finished as a political entity in my opinion. Corbyn very nearly achieved that in a couple of years.

[Dorcus]

When we had the Blair / Brown years - I did pretty well out of them. They embarked on a massive NHS IT systems that kept me in beans for a while. It obviously ended in failure when it became so massive Brown just kept chucking money at the project (that never works).

And then we found out that his amazing stewardship of the economy , getting growth of 3-3.5% per years etc - was actually down to his PFI initiative that didnt seem to appear on the books - it went on the never never - so Health / Schools etc would take 3 times the cost to build.

Ed Balls and his school rebuilding program where he'd spunked over 50% of the budget without even a brick being laid. I guess we'll forget about Brown selling all the gold at rock bottom prices and the 'lose hand on the tiller" when it came to financial regulations that ultimately did for him, with teh sub/prime crash in the states.

So in some ways - getting someone with the same political and economic mindset as Brown may not be a bad thing in the short term for me.

But in general, as it always seems to - it will lead to the letter in the desk saying 'all the moneys gone'.

When when Starma cant say whether a woman can have a penis or whether Eddy Suzy Izzard should not be allowed on an all woman shortlist.

If Starma and Raynor dont win - the Labour party are finished as a political entity in my opinion. Corbyn very nearly achieved that in a couple of years.

the native pipster hates Labour, fascinating.

[pipster]

the native pipster hates Labour, fascinating.

You are a very bizarre character indeed. I voted Foot , Kinnock, Blair (mate executed in Iraq - never voted for him again), went self employed, voted Cameron, Lib Dem, then Boris - as Corbyn was an even worse option. Missed the Theresa May election (I was out of the UK for a while) , next time who knows, none at the moment

[Hilts]

You are a very bizarre character indeed. I voted Foot , Kinnock, Blair (mate executed in Iraq - never voted for him again), went self employed, voted Cameron, Lib Dem, then Boris - as Corbyn was an even worse option. Missed the Theresa May election (I was out of the UK for a while) , next time who knows, none at the moment

At least you admit you voted these clowns in.

[pipster]

At least you admit you voted these clowns in.

Which clowns ? - Foot / Kinnock would have been better off in a circus - along with Corbyn. I liked the Cameron Clegg line up. Would have voted for the David Miliband rather than his brother. Johnson got in because no one wanted Corbyn apart from a few hard left idiots and some champers set in London.

Who did you vote for and why ?

[Rjk]

When we had the Blair / Brown years - I did pretty well out of them. They embarked on a massive NHS IT systems that kept me in beans for a while. It obviously ended in failure when it became so massive Brown just kept chucking money at the project (that never works).

And then we found out that his amazing stewardship of the economy , getting growth of 3-3.5% per years etc - was actually down to his PFI initiative that didnt seem to appear on the books - it went on the never never - so Health / Schools etc would take 3 times the cost to build.

Ed Balls and his school rebuilding program where he'd spunked over 50% of the budget without even a brick being laid. I guess we'll forget about Brown selling all the gold at rock bottom prices and the 'lose hand on the tiller" when it came to financial regulations that ultimately did for him, with teh sub/prime crash in the states.

So in some ways - getting someone with the same political and economic mindset as Brown may not be a bad thing in the short term for me.

But in general, as it always seems to - it will lead to the letter in the desk saying 'all the moneys gone'.

When when Starma cant say whether a woman can have a penis or whether Eddy Suzy Izzard should not be allowed on an all woman shortlist.

If Starma and Raynor dont win - the Labour party are finished as a political entity in my opinion. Corbyn very nearly achieved that in a couple of years.

I think you may need to go away and read the difference between the economy of the UK and the government's finances. if you think that the growth in the economy was only that high because the government were using PFI contracts to keep things "off the books" then it seems you don't have any idea what you're talking about

[jon1959]

Which clowns ? - Foot / Kinnock would have been better off in a circus - along with Corbyn. I liked the Cameron Clegg line up. Would have voted for the David Miliband rather than his brother. Johnson got in because no one wanted Corbyn apart from a few hard left idiots and some champers set in London.

Who did you vote for and why ?

I think it must have been 11,390,099 'hard left idiots' in 2017, but only 10,269.051 'champers set in London' come 2019!

[pipster]

I think it must have been 11,390,099 'hard left idiots' in 2017, but only 10,269.051 'champers set in London' come 2019!

We operate a first past the post system in the UK - and Johnson got an 80 odd seat majority and Corbyn delivered the worst set of results for a Labour party since 1935 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/election-2019-50768605

Of course Jezza labelled it as a victory - which I suppose it was in one way.

[jon1959]

We operate a first past the post system in the UK - and Johnson got an 80 odd seat majority and Corbyn delivered the worst set of results for a Labour party since 1935 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/election-2019-50768605

Of course Jezza labelled it as a victory - which I suppose it was in one way.

It wasn't a victory in 2017, but it was major progress against pundit expectations, and it was a bad defeat in 2019.

Corbyn was the Labour leader for both, but the difference in 2019 was a stupid and incoherent Brexit policy.

And yes the 2019 election was the worst for Labour in terms of seats since 1935. That is an important measure, but not the only one. Even with the disastrous 2019 campaign (Labour civil war, Brexit, etc) Labour got a higher % of the popular vote than Miliband in 2015 and Brown in 2010, or Kinnock in 1987 or Foot in 1983.... But 'worst since 1935' makes a great headline.

[pipster]

It wasn't a victory in 2017, but it was major progress against pundit expectations, and it was a bad defeat in 2019.

Corbyn was the Labour leader for both, but the difference in 2019 was a stupid and incoherent Brexit policy.

And yes the 2019 election was the worst for Labour in terms of seats since 1935. That is an important measure, but not the only one. Even with the disastrous 2019 campaign (Labour civil war, Brexit, etc) Labour got a higher % of the popular vote than Miliband in 2015 and Brown in 2010, or Kinnock in 1987 or Foot in 1983.... But 'worst since 1935' makes a great headline.

But it is the only metric that counts - you win the seat or you dont.
We had a PR referendum - and that was lost as well.

Maybe if David and Ed's older brother was leader there may have been a different outcome.

[life on mars]

You are a very bizarre character indeed. I voted Foot , Kinnock, Blair (mate executed in Iraq - never voted for him again), went self employed, voted Cameron, Lib Dem, then Boris - as Corbyn was an even worse option. Missed the Theresa May election (I was out of the UK for a while) , next time who knows, none at the moment

Don't feel you have to apologise is a free world . I also voted for Blair , stupidly voted for Ed Miliband , confusion reigned after that could not pretend to like Corbyn because of my past Labour affiliations ,so wasted my vote on Liberals .

Blair also privatised the NHS which allowed him to push the money in the NHS reduce waiting which ahs now proved to be a short term decision and hurt the NHS in many ways since , looks like Starmer / Streeting are talking up the same Blair stealth tactics .

Lets not forget the same government applied this short sighted tactic :
In 2001, the then Chancellor Gordon Brown introduced a new system of car tax aimed at protecting the environment. In actual reality it fostered a popular move towards highly polluting diesel cars - a trend which according to some experts has been associated with thousands of premature deaths a year.

New light is shed on how this happened by records received by the BBC, after a two-year freedom of information battle with the Treasury. Some of these papers show that civil servants objected to a stronger policy to deter diesel usage on presentational grounds, because they did not want the government to be seen as "penalising" diesel drivers.

Then : Brown’s £5bn raid a year pensions raid has finally come back to haunt him with the revelation that he ignored repeated warnings from his own officials about the long term damage it would have on savings .

Then more short term decisions : Gordon Brown today admitted making "two mistakes" over the abolition of the 10p starting rate of income tax.

In an interview on BBC Radio 4's Today programme, the prime minister conceded more clearly than he has done before that the final budget he introduced as chancellor was flawed.

"We made two mistakes. I'll be honest about it, we made two mistakes," said Brown, who has a reputation for being reluctant to admit that he gets things wrong.

Tuition fees introduced 1998 under the Labour government of Tony Blair

Iraq ?

Shit , shit and more shit ,power at any cost

All fell apart for me though Blair was the man ,

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Don't feel you have to apologise is a free world . I also voted for Blair , stupidly voted for Ed Miliband , confusion reigned after that could not pretend to like Corbyn because of my past Labour affiliations ,so wasted my vote on Liberals .

Blair also privatised the NHS which allowed him to push the money in the NHS reduce waiting which ahs now proved to be a short term decision and hurt the NHS in many ways since , looks like Starmer / Streeting are talking up the same Blair stealth tactics .

Lets not forget the same government applied this short sighted tactic :
In 2001, the then Chancellor Gordon Brown introduced a new system of car tax aimed at protecting the environment. In actual reality it fostered a popular move towards highly polluting diesel cars - a trend which according to some experts has been associated with thousands of premature deaths a year.

New light is shed on how this happened by records received by the BBC, after a two-year freedom of information battle with the Treasury. Some of these papers show that civil servants objected to a stronger policy to deter diesel usage on presentational grounds, because they did not want the government to be seen as "penalising" diesel drivers.

Then : Brown’s £5bn raid a year pensions raid has finally come back to haunt him with the revelation that he ignored repeated warnings from his own officials about the long term damage it would have on savings .

Then more short term decisions : Gordon Brown today admitted making "two mistakes" over the abolition of the 10p starting rate of income tax.

In an interview on BBC Radio 4's Today programme, the prime minister conceded more clearly than he has done before that the final budget he introduced as chancellor was flawed.

"We made two mistakes. I'll be honest about it, we made two mistakes," said Brown, who has a reputation for being reluctant to admit that he gets things wrong.

Tuition fees introduced 1998 under the Labour government of Tony Blair

Iraq ?

Shit , shit and more shit ,power at any cost

All fell apart for me though Blair was the man ,

Another LoM cut and paste job in the main.

[jon1959]

But it is the only metric that counts - you win the seat or you dont.
We had a PR referendum - and that was lost as well.

Maybe if David and Ed's older brother was leader there may have been a different outcome.

You began this by talking about who wanted Corbyn (only lefty nutters and London champaign drinkers I think you said?) so measures of popular support seem to be the most relevant response to your point.

Of course in FPTP the number of seats won is the crucial metric - but a party can win more seats with a lower % of the popular vote than a rival party - so seats won is not the way to measure popular support.

So in 2019 Corbyn achieved the worst Labour result since 1935, or the third worst (and second best) since 2005. Both are true. Still lost though!

[pipster]

You began this by talking about who wanted Corbyn (only lefty nutters and London champaign drinkers I think you said?) so measures of popular support seem to be the most relevant response to your point.

Of course in FPTP the number of seats won is the crucial metric - but a party can win more seats with a lower % of the popular vote than a rival party - so seats won is not the way to measure popular support.

So in 2019 Corbyn achieved the worst Labour result since 1935, or the third worst (and second best) since 2005. Both are true. Still lost though!

I think Hilary used the same tactic as you, maybe if she hadnt accused anyone think of voting Trump as a basket case of deplorables - then she might have 'won' the election as well. In fact I think trump used the 'I won the popular vote' argument after he lost to Biden - obviously - it must in the PR handbook of what to say when you realise you have actually lost rather then won....

[jon1959]

I think Hilary used the same tactic as you, maybe if she hadnt accused anyone think of voting Trump as a basket case of deplorables - then she might have 'won' the election as well. In fact I think trump used the 'I won the popular vote' argument after he lost to Biden - obviously - it must in the PR handbook of what to say when you realise you have actually lost rather then won....

What are you gibbering on about?

If you move your goalposts any more you'll be out of the ground.

You started this particular digression. I responded to the point you claimed to make. You then started arguing against yourself. Is that a 'tactic'? Very odd!

I don't think Trump used the "I won the popular vote' argument when he lost in 2020. Unlike Clinton, he didn't.

[pipster]

Youre right, he blamed the automatic counting machines saying they were rigged, never accepted Biden won etc.

Hilary had a get out option - as did Corbyn.