Has the EU improved Europe ?

[TWGL1]

Doesn’t look like at the moment does it ?

[Doucas]

A previous comment I left. UK doesn't come off well compared.

3rd highest energy bills in Europe - https://www.euronews.com/next/2023/0...-electricity-a

German inflation rate - 6.1%
German food inflation - 14.5%
German interest rates - 4% (https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/indicators)

France inflation rate - 5.1%
Food inflation - 14.3%
France interest rate - 4% (https://tradingeconomics.com/france/indicators)

Switzerland inflation rate - 2.2%
Food inflation 5.3%
Interest rate - 1.75% (https://tradingeconomics.com/switzerland/indicators)

Spain inflation rate - 4%
Food inflation - 12%
Interest rate - 4% (https://tradingeconomics.com/spain/indicators)

Italy inflation rate 7.6%
Food inflation - 12%
Interest rate - 4% (https://tradingeconomics.com/italy/indicators)

UK Inflation rate - 8.7%
Food inflation 18.3%
Interest rates - 5% (https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/indicators)


Wage growth between 2007 - 2016 almost bottom - https://www.raconteur.net/report/cur...ls-to-deliver/ (I appreciate this is out of date now but I don't expect much has changed.

So in conclusion if you compare the UK to western/northern Europe and even Spain and Italy it is damning, we are behind on what I'd consider to be the most important factors. Third highest energy/gas bills, outside of Eastern Europe we're among the worst for interest rates, inflation and food inflation.

[Eric Cartman]

I never understand why brexiteers (and remainers for that matter) think comparisons between Britain and EU countries prove their argument either way. Brexit damages both sides, certainly us more.

In answer to the original question. Yes definitely.

[Dorcus]

The biggest improvement will be when it becomes one country like the USA.

[JamesWales]

Its a very interesting question and one that's impossible to answer. Do we compare it to the Europe before the EEC? The Europe before the EU? To other parts of the world? To European countries outside the EU?

Overall I think it's been good, in terms of helping to unite Europe and bring in the post communist countries. However, communism was always likely to fail, and elsewhere in the world they have also been absorbed into the free world, albeit not as successfully.

I think the issue with the EU is it's overreach. It should be an economic organisation based solely around trade and friendship. The political element can and should be almost entirely gotten rid of, with powers returned to nation states. I still think that it's thirst for power is now at a point that it is being weakened, and we saw that to an extent with Brexit - had David Cameron won meaningful concessions from them in the 2014 renegotiations then I don't think Brexit would have happened

[Swiss Peter]

Doesn’t look like at the moment does it ?

Please elaborate.

[lardy]

Its a very interesting question and one that's impossible to answer. Do we compare it to the Europe before the EEC? The Europe before the EU? To other parts of the world? To European countries outside the EU?

Overall I think it's been good, in terms of helping to unite Europe and bring in the post communist countries. However, communism was always likely to fail, and elsewhere in the world they have also been absorbed into the free world, albeit not as successfully.

I think the issue with the EU is it's overreach. It should be an economic organisation based solely around trade and friendship. The political element can and should be almost entirely gotten rid of, with powers returned to nation states. I still think that it's thirst for power is now at a point that it is being weakened, and we saw that to an extent with Brexit - had David Cameron won meaningful concessions from them in the 2014 renegotiations then I don't think Brexit would have happened

Communism was always likely to fail. That's with hindsight.

In the 1950s, communism was probably stronger than capitalism/democracy. It was by no means certain that communism would (eventually, decades later) fail.

[jon1959]

Its a very interesting question and one that's impossible to answer. Do we compare it to the Europe before the EEC? The Europe before the EU? To other parts of the world? To European countries outside the EU?

Overall I think it's been good, in terms of helping to unite Europe and bring in the post communist countries. However, communism was always likely to fail, and elsewhere in the world they have also been absorbed into the free world, albeit not as successfully.

I think the issue with the EU is it's overreach. It should be an economic organisation based solely around trade and friendship. The political element can and should be almost entirely gotten rid of, with powers returned to nation states. I still think that it's thirst for power is now at a point that it is being weakened, and we saw that to an extent with Brexit - had David Cameron won meaningful concessions from them in the 2014 renegotiations then I don't think Brexit would have happened

As a capitalist trade bloc - 'the bosses club' of the 1970s - it was a failure for ordinary people. One of the main engines of international neo-liberalism, both economically and politically. But....

As a political union - albeit a weak and underdeveloped one - it showed some progressive credentials, under pressure from labour and environmental groups across the continent. It certainly provided more protections and guarantees than the UK governments would have done from 2010 - if not before. It has also kept some of the populist right (and worse in the case of Hungary etc) in check in recent years - the benefits of staying in the club outweigh some of the attractions of neo-fascism! Against that it had its own Osbourne on Steroids moments with Greece and a few other struggling southern European economies. Overall a mildly positive effect - which is why the TUC and most of the British left lined up (unenthusiastically) behind Remain in the Referendum.

[JamesWales]

Communism was always likely to fail. That's with hindsight.

In the 1950s, communism was probably stronger than capitalism/democracy. It was by no means certain that communism would (eventually, decades later) fail.

I agree, it is with hindsight. I just mean that many post communist nations have adapted, but the EU probably helped them do it better

[life on mars]

No its collapsing slowly the smaller countries have had enough of being used by Germany and France ...

Glad we're out, think history will prove the Brexiters we're right.

Thier abject reaction to Covid vaccine , Ukraine reliance on Russian Gas has convinced me that leave was a good option.

And I stupidly voted remain .

Oh and thanks Tony Blair, for not entering the Euro . What a great decesion .

[Swiss Peter]

As a capitalist trade bloc - 'the bosses club' of the 1970s - it was a failure for ordinary people. One of the main engines of international neo-liberalism, both economically and politically. But....

As a political union - albeit a weak and underdeveloped one - it showed some progressive credentials, under pressure from labour and environmental groups across the continent. It certainly provided more protections and guarantees than the UK governments would have done from 2010 - if not before. It has also kept some of the populist right (and worse in the case of Hungary etc) in check in recent years - the benefits of staying in the club outweigh some of the attractions of neo-fascism! Against that it had its own Osbourne on Steroids moments with Greece and a few other struggling southern European economies. Overall a mildly positive effect - which is why the TUC and most of the British left lined up (unenthusiastically) behind Remain in the Referendum.

Yes, a real mixed bag - with some very significant downsides. Like any community/union/institution probably.

The usual crusty old Brexit supporting suspects in parts of the media (and on social media/football message boards) absolutely love bad news from the continent - French riots, German recession, growth of the far right. Always the same line from them - a vindication of loosening links, and evidence that the EU is heading for its certain demise.

Except, of course, talk to ordinary people on the continent and look at the research, and you get a different picture. Popularity for the EU amongst the populations of member states has grown since Ukraine and Brexit, including amongst smaller states.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...c-since-brexit

(Yes, the Guardian. Sceptics are welcome to post any counter evidence).

So, has the EU improved Europe?. Well, we don’t have the counterfactual. But if you believe the research, most people across the Continent would rather be in that out, contrary to what the UK Europhobes (many of whom probably travel little further than their keyboards) continue to try and infer.

[Swiss Peter]

Please elaborate.

Ok, don't then!

[Swiss Peter]

link doesn't work. Maybe this one?...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...c-since-brexit

[Wales-Bales]

The biggest improvement will be when it becomes one country like the USA.

So following on from this logic, the ultimate improvement would be a globalised world without borders, a sort of new world order? We could then get rid of all the politicians, and let the autocratic billionaire controlled global corporations decide what we can and can't do. It sounds great!

[cyril evans awaydays]

[QUOTE=Wales-Bales;5435156]So following on from this logic, the ultimate improvement would be a globalised world without borders, a sort of new world order? We could then get rid of all the politicians, and let the autocratic billionaire controlled global corporations decide what we can and can't do. It sounds great![/QUOTE]

Thought you loved Elon?

[Dorcus]

So following on from this logic, the ultimate improvement would be a globalised world without borders, a sort of new world order? We could then get rid of all the politicians, and let the autocratic billionaire controlled global corporations decide what we can and can't do. It sounds great!

I fully agree with your first sentence but not the second which is a non sequitur

[Keyser Soze]

Yes, a real mixed bag - with some very significant downsides. Like any community/union/institution probably.

The usual crusty old Brexit supporting suspects in parts of the media (and on social media/football message boards) absolutely love bad news from the continent - French riots, German recession, growth of the far right. Always the same line from them - a vindication of loosening links, and evidence that the EU is heading for its certain demise.

Except, of course, talk to ordinary people on the continent and look at the research, and you get a different picture. Popularity for the EU amongst the populations of member states has grown since Ukraine and Brexit, including amongst smaller states.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...c-since-brexit

(Yes, the Guardian. Sceptics are welcome to post any counter evidence).

So, has the EU improved Europe?. Well, we don’t have the counterfactual. But if you believe the research, most people across the Continent would rather be in that out, contrary to what the UK Europhobes (many of whom probably travel little further than their keyboards) continue to try and infer.

Well, yes is the answer. But then again, Europe had a lot of problems to sort out.

European Wars - 2000 years of ding-dongs
Europe has been at perennial war for decades. So has the UK. But the difference is, that the continent was at war with itself. And still is, in the outer rims of it. So it has had itself to fix. People often forget that simple nuance. Just look at the list of wars that Europe has had historically, trying to strip each other's trousers off:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...icts_in_Europe

The reality is that rather than create peace, Europe has been a perennial war for over 2000 years and the above list proves it. Not only, that the very idea that the EU is united and prevented war, is also a pack of lies. The continent is still at it, hammer and tongs, in one guise or another. So that's that argument closed.

The secondary argument that the EEC and EU has prevented further world wars is also moot, although it cannot be argued that a world war has occurred. The NATO security umbrella, largely by the Americans, is probably the real reason it hasn't escalated to another world war.

But often ignored is the third argument - external wars. Europe has certainly sodden its gloves in that regard. Syria, Lybia and sticking its head in the Yugoslav war are examples of not exactly being "at peace".


European politics has barely 50 years of institutional success versus our 500-1000 years
So did the EU improve Europe? Well yes and no. Let's take its institutions. It's post-war institutions are barely 20-60 years old in most cases. Parliament, central banks, and other unelected bureaucratic quangos come and go, and still in a state of flux. They are still being test and re-constructed. It's a new baby, so it needs refreshed nappies around it to support it. It is barely fifty years out of Nazism, Communism and all sorts of various dictatorships (Franco, Mussolini, Milosevic), and odd Polish parties like Solidarity. Germany is only 30 years old and still dealing with Die Linke (far Left) and Alternative for Deutscheland (far Right). The continent is still full of idiot politics - history shows that it is in the blood. And Kosovo issues still haven't gone. Communist and Nazi influence still lives in the Ukraine. It is all still there, bubbling away under the surface. The leopard doesn't change its spots.

But what is the comparison point? And why would we even be tempted to be run by it? At least our British Parliament has lasted a thousand years. The Monarchy, for all its theoretical faults and history, provides a head of state neutrality and stability for 300 years as a representative monarchy, and six hundred years of bloodline stability. It is respected worldwide. Our central bank is the second oldest in the world. Our democracy is one of Europe's oldest and most stable, and our judiciary is one of the most respected in the world and has been for centuries. Our external border has been stable for centuries. No other European country has the sustained collective institutional stability that we have had. So whereas most European countries had a lot to learn from Germany, in reality the UK has very little to gain nor learn from Europe, other than trade access. We are fine, thank you.

European economics - improved for who?
Has it improved their economy? Well, yes, in the round, probably. For many. Since the war it has provided a commercial stability. And ludicrous currencies such as the peso and lira have bought a stability by hiding behind the Euro, priced for the German economy. But Europe has a lot to repair. Unemployment in the 1990s in Spain was 30%, and youth unemployment in the Andalucia area was 50%. So the currency has made many wealthy. But not all. Manufacturing in the Mediterannean countries have been gutted by an expensive Euro that is too expensive for the Med. They have been hollowed out. It is an answer that an be given in the round, but the picture of success is patchy. I would say that Southern and Eastern European countries have gained by piggy backing onto what has mainly been German institutions, German economic power and German ministers calling the shots. For the Scandinavian countries, they were stable anyway.

So the bad boys at the back of the class have grown up a bit. And those that were stable have remained so. A cause for celebration? Maybe. Or perhaps "expected standard" for those countries that want to be called developed countries. About time.

Europhiles, Brit-o-phobes & Little Englanders
Ah the Brit-o-phobes. So many of them it seems. Understandable, with EU funding polluting the BBC and Briitsh schools for twenty years with self-immolating guilt stories. To be expected. Europe loved taking the help of Britain and the US, but due to its shame, has never really shown the gratitude for bailing them out. They always wanted to "get one over" on the UK and that has been shown in all diplomatic negotiations since the European Union was formed in its first guise as The Coal and Steel Community in the 1950s. Never trusting our entrepreneurial advantage they always wanted to cancel out our advantages with stinky protectionism.

In the United Kingdom, the Brit-o-phobes on The Left never liked the British elite , which is fair enough. Left wing Nationalism and Europhilia was seen as the be-all and end-all for subverting British power both from the inside, and the outside. The stupid assumption was that foreigners would be kinder to us than our own elite. The reality is that the Germans, French, Italians and Dutch barely care about the UK anymore, let alone the Welsh, Scots and Northern Irish. To most of them, we are "England", and the rest is small irrelevances. The naievite on behalf of the Brit-o-phobes is remarkable, and deeply misplaced. When you are in the EU, you are a mackerel pissing in the Pacific, swimming with sharks. Do as they say, or you will be outed. Nobody cares about localisms.

On the other side you have "Old England" Europhobes. You know, the posh types who often tell tales of British Empire grandeur, have profited from slavery, bang on about World War Two perennially, and used to laugh at Europeans for "not speaking English". The very same people who when asked "Where are you going this year?" to get "Oh yah, I'm heading to papa's little hovel in St. Tropez", only to gorge on Italian pizza and bottles of Chateau-Neuf-Du-Pape, in some way of social signalling that they are "cultured". The Oxford PPE mentality of "The sun never set on the Empire" and "Britannia rules the waves". This mob's time should be done in a few decades and their lack of appreciation for our European friends is despicable, and have turned the Brexit debate into a xenophobic pissing contest, rather than a discussion of practical solutions which deal with our differences with Europe in a sensible way. "Fog in the channel, continent cut off" is this mob's mindset it seems.

So as you see, despite the many faults with our own system, we have people working against us from the outside, and from the inside. A pincer movement of enemies. Enemies outside the camp. And enemies within. Preventing progress in all angles.

Can Europe work for Europeans and us?
So yes, the EU has improved most ropey European countries. And cross-border trade liberalisation was a good thing. But the creep-creep of EU institutions served the ropey countries well, but much like the Scandinavian countries it would be able to teach us anything of much value. The EU project was required to fix a European mess. Our institutions, heads of state, monetary and banking system, military and legal system did not need to be part of it. The answer to this childish "Europe good" v "Big bad Europe" lies in the adult zone, in which we have not landed. A land where acknowledgement of our strengths are recognised by Europeans & Brit-o-phobes from within, but where "Little Englanders" also need to recognise that the EU will continue to address many of Europe's perennial issues of war and poor institutions. Perhaps in the future we can meet in the middle, rather than good v bad narrative which defines it as a war and a tribe, rather than an intelligent quest for a practical solution that suits both sides.

[Wales-Bales]

Thought you loved Elon?

I've never said I loved (or hated) Musk, nor Trump for that matter. That's the difference between you and me, we operate on different levels.

[Wash DC Blue]

Anybody have any thoughts on Yanis Varoufakis and Diem25?

https://diem25.org/the-three-pillars...ion-explained/

[JamesWales]

Yes, a real mixed bag - with some very significant downsides. Like any community/union/institution probably.

The usual crusty old Brexit supporting suspects in parts of the media (and on social media/football message boards) absolutely love bad news from the continent - French riots, German recession, growth of the far right. Always the same line from them - a vindication of loosening links, and evidence that the EU is heading for its certain demise.

Except, of course, talk to ordinary people on the continent and look at the research, and you get a different picture. Popularity for the EU amongst the populations of member states has grown since Ukraine and Brexit, including amongst smaller states.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...c-since-brexit

(Yes, the Guardian. Sceptics are welcome to post any counter evidence).

So, has the EU improved Europe?. Well, we don’t have the counterfactual. But if you believe the research, most people across the Continent would rather be in that out, contrary to what the UK Europhobes (many of whom probably travel little further than their keyboards) continue to try and infer.

An interesting and balanaced analysis, though I'm not sure the two slights against 'europhobes' and 'crusty old..' helps. I agree though, some people do view anything bad as a vindication that said institution / party / ideology is all bad, and a much broader picture is needed in that respect.

There is also a pretty loose correlation between criticising the EU and being europhobic, but we all know that. I think the EU is a deeply imperfect political institution but I am an absolute europhile.

As for people citing examples from Europe - that is usually done on here not to run down the EU but to counter people who make often hysterical claims about the UK by demonstrating that nearly all the claims they make about here also apply elsewhere and thus that their analysis (essentially that problems are solved by a new govt) perhaps needs refining a bit.

My general view remains - The EU has been good on balance for the European continent, but it risks overreach, there is no need for every nation to be a member and as Peter says, we don't have the counterfactual to know for sure either way

[Swiss Peter]

An interesting and balanaced analysis, though I'm not sure the two slights against 'europhobes' and 'crusty old..' helps. I agree though, some people do view anything bad as a vindication that said institution / party / ideology is all bad, and a much broader picture is needed in that respect.

There is also a pretty loose correlation between criticising the EU and being europhobic, but we all know that. I think the EU is a deeply imperfect political institution but I am an absolute europhile.

As for people citing examples from Europe - that is usually done on here not to run down the EU but to counter people who make often hysterical claims about the UK by demonstrating that nearly all the claims they make about here also apply elsewhere and thus that their analysis (essentially that problems are solved by a new govt) perhaps needs refining a bit.

My general view remains - The EU has been good on balance for the European continent, but it risks overreach, there is no need for every nation to be a member and as Peter says, we don't have the counterfactual to know for sure either way

The 'unhelpful' bits were a direct response to an attitude that is typified even within a post in this thread.

Anyway, more importantly, the Bundesliga fixtures are out! B2 is going to be a banger next season!

[HiVis]

The biggest improvement will be when it becomes one country like the USA.

[HiVis]

Its a very interesting question and one that's impossible to answer. Do we compare it to the Europe before the EEC? The Europe before the EU? To other parts of the world? To European countries outside the EU?

Overall I think it's been good, in terms of helping to unite Europe and bring in the post communist countries. However, communism was always likely to fail, and elsewhere in the world they have also been absorbed into the free world, albeit not as successfully.

I think the issue with the EU is it's overreach. It should be an economic organisation based solely around trade and friendship. The political element can and should be almost entirely gotten rid of, with powers returned to nation states. I still think that it's thirst for power is now at a point that it is being weakened, and we saw that to an extent with Brexit - had David Cameron won meaningful concessions from them in the 2014 renegotiations then I don't think Brexit would have happened

What powers have the member states relinquished?

[HiVis]

Yes, a real mixed bag - with some very significant downsides. Like any community/union/institution probably.

The usual crusty old Brexit supporting suspects in parts of the media (and on social media/football message boards) absolutely love bad news from the continent - French riots, German recession, growth of the far right. Always the same line from them - a vindication of loosening links, and evidence that the EU is heading for its certain demise.

Except, of course, talk to ordinary people on the continent and look at the research, and you get a different picture. Popularity for the EU amongst the populations of member states has grown since Ukraine and Brexit, including amongst smaller states.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...c-since-brexit

(Yes, the Guardian. Sceptics are welcome to post any counter evidence).

So, has the EU improved Europe?. Well, we don’t have the counterfactual. But if you believe the research, most people across the Continent would rather be in that out, contrary to what the UK Europhobes (many of whom probably travel little further than their keyboards) continue to try and infer.

The single biggest reason that the EU is a source for good is that between 1914-1945 100 million people dies needlessly because we couldn't sit around a table and discuss our differences like civilised people. The economy of the EU is so intertwined that going to war with another member state would be catastrophic. That alone is worth being inside.

And no one mentions the cluster **** that is Northern Ireland and the peace process.

[HiVis]

I fully agree with your first sentence but not the second which is a non sequitur

Is this the first time you've ready a Gluey post?