By-Elections

[JamesWales]

Labour wins Rutherglen and Hamilton West by-election.

That isn't a surprise (they were odds on all of the last few weeks) but the scale of it probably exceeds their expectations. Tory vote collapsed, amidst their voters switching to keep SNP out - an interesting and different example of tactical voting.

What if anything does it mean for the SNP and independence? Would other seats go thr same way?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67024848

[Taunton Blue Genie]

If Labour had a decent leader they would get a majority

But he's utterly incompetent as are the idiots around him like raynor

Tonight has showed people want the Tories out but the biggest obstacle to defeating them is the pathetic state of the main opposition and the liberals

Merge or forever be the bridesmaids

The suggestion from ed davey and his new mp that the Liberal Democrats are back in the game after tonight's win are ridiculous

As someone who has never voted for the Labour Party nor the Conservatives but has done so for the Libs/Lib Dems/SDP, I wouldn't want to see the Lib Dems subsumed by the less than credible Labour Party.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

As someone who has never voted for the Labour Party nor the Conservatives but has done so for the Libs/Lib Dems/SDP, I wouldn't want to see the Lib Dems subsumed by the less than credible Labour Party.

You might not like to see that but after the defeat of the Tories at the next election , hopefully .......I can't see any future for the lib dems

Which is a shame as a Lib lab coalition would keep the Tories out

[Taunton Blue Genie]

You might not like to see that but after the defeat of the Tories at the next election , hopefully .......I can't see any future for the lib dems

Which is a shame as a Lib lab coalition would keep the Tories out

A coalition is not the same as the merger you had hoped for.

P.S. The Lib Dems are indeed at a low ebb too.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

A coalition is not the same as the merger you had hoped for.

P.S. The Lib Dems are indeed at a low ebb too.

I am more of a Liberal than a Labour type voter

But they are a complete waste of time at the moment apart from defeating the Tories in a few seats in the south where Labour cannot compete

I don't care wether it's a Lib lab pact , a coalition or Andy Pandy the future needs to be a new left of centre party to keep the Tories out

A lot more in common than divides us as plenty of people switch between voting liberal and Labour and vice versa but not generally in the direction of the Tories

That's the clear way forward

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

A coalition is not the same as the merger you had hoped for.

P.S. The Lib Dems are indeed at a low ebb too.

The liberals support is very poor considering the unpopularity of the government

The best to hope for is for one day be part of a united opposition and to argue for Liberal values within that context

Holding out for anything else is a waste of time in the same way hoping for a left wing government is a waste of time , never going to happen

[A Quiet Monkfish]

I am more of a Liberal than a Labour type voter

But they are a complete waste of time at the moment apart from defeating the Tories in a few seats in the south where Labour cannot compete

I don't care wether it's a Lib lab pact , a coalition or Andy Pandy the future needs to be a new left of centre party to keep the Tories out

A lot more in common than divides us as plenty of people switch between voting liberal and Labour and vice versa but not generally in the direction of the Tories

That's the clear way forward

Doesn't seem that clear to me.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Doesn't seem that clear to me.

The anti tory vote in this country is bigger than the tory vote

We don't have a two party system in this country but if we did the conservatives would be in opposition the majority of the time

It can't be any clearer really

[JamesWales]

The anti tory vote in this country is bigger than the tory vote

We don't have a two party system in this country but if we did the conservatives would be in opposition the majority of the time

It can't be any clearer really

We have the closest thing to a two party system of almost any country in Europe and the Tories have been in power for most of that time. Other than that, you are spot on

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

We have the closest thing to a two party system of almost any country in Europe and the Tories have been in power for most of that time. Other than that, you are spot on

I know but if we create a centrist moderate party then your lot are absolutely fecked

For eternity

At the most around 40 percent of the electorate are tory

You better pray discussions behind the scenes don't continue apace

[JamesWales]

I know but if we create a centrist moderate party then your lot are absolutely fecked

For eternity

At the most around 40 percent of the electorate are tory

You better pray discussions behind the scenes don't continue apace

Doesn't work like that though does it. Basically every country has those parties and they get in power and eventually get voted out. As I've pointed out on several occasions, Germany currently has a centre left and left coalition (SPD and Greens) and their economic situation is worse on most levels than ours and both are now third and fourth in the polls.

Anyway, we have already wished eachothrr pleasant weekends and I'd like to enjoy France v Italy without looking up the latest German electoral polls, as tempting as it is

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Doesn't work like that though does it. Basically every country has those parties and they get in power and eventually get voted out. As I've pointed out on several occasions, Germany currently has a centre left and left coalition (SPD and Greens) and their economic situation is worse on most levels than ours and both are now third and fourth in the polls.

Anyway, we have already wished eachothrr pleasant weekends and I'd like to enjoy France v Italy without looking up the latest German electoral polls, as tempting as it is

We don't have PR

If we did the block vote of the good people would cancel out the bad

Rugby is boring

[JamesWales]

We don't have PR

If we did the block vote of the good people would cancel out the bad

Rugby is boring

Yes, we dont have PR, but as I say, even when you get the kind of dream ticket to have lefties wetting their knickers, like the current German Govt which is comprised of their equivalent of the Labour Party, the Lib Dems and Greens, yet their record is dreadful (worse on economic data than ours) and they are deeply unpopular

[Swiss Peter]

Yes, we dont have PR, but as I say, even when you get the kind of dream ticket to have lefties wetting their knickers, like the current German Govt which is comprised of their equivalent of the Labour Party, the Lib Dems and Greens, yet their record is dreadful (worse on economic data than ours) and they are deeply unpopular

The FDP in Germany is not the equivalent of the Lib Dems here.

[JamesWales]

The FDP in Germany is not the equivalent of the Lib Dems here.

Not a perfect fit because that's impossible but both were affiliated to the Alliance of Liberals and Democrats (now "Renew" in the EU parliament). Both essentially are economically and socially liberal parties even if they place different emphasis on either part.

Either way, that's not the thrust of my argument.

[Swiss Peter]

Not a perfect fit because that's impossible but both were affiliated to the Alliance of Liberals and Democrats (now "Renew" in the EU parliament). Both essentially are economically and socially liberal parties even if they place different emphasis on either part.

Either way, that's not the thrust of my argument.

You were telling Sludge that the German coalition is equivalent to what he was outlining. Not sure why you raised it if it's not the thrust of your argument. It is also wrong. The FDP are distinctly different to the Lib Dems even if both are 'liberal' parties. the FDP draw their support from the centre/centre-right. Does that sound like the Lib Dems here to you?

[JamesWales]

You were telling Sludge that the German coalition is equivalent to what he was outlining. Not sure why you raised it if it's not the thrust of your argument. It is also wrong. The FDP are distinctly different to the Lib Dems even if both are 'liberal' parties. the FDP draw their support from the centre/centre-right. Does that sound like the Lib Dems here to you?

The thrust of my argument is that when people present an argument that some other party or alliance of parties would fix all the problems they are in due course nearly always proved wrong because those same parties face the same problems.

And we see that in Germany and pretty much anywhere else you care to mention.

And the Lib Dems and FDP are not an exact match but both affiliate(d) to the same grouping in the European parliament, which is a loose coalition of like minded parties, so it's a reasonable thing to say. And yes, plenty of Lib Dems are centre-right as it goes, esp in rural areas where they compete with Tories across South west England for example

[Swiss Peter]

The thrust of my argument is that when people present an argument that some other party or alliance of parties would fix all the problems they are in due course nearly always proved wrong because those same parties face the same problems.

And we see that in Germany and pretty much anywhere else you care to mention.

And the Lib Dems and FDP are not an exact match but both affiliate(d) to the same grouping in the European parliament, which is a loose coalition of like minded parties, so it's a reasonable thing to say. And yes, plenty of Lib Dems are centre-right as it goes, esp in rural areas where they compete with Tories across South west England for example

Very far from an exact match!. I understand your general point, but you said that the German coalition is an equivalent of a labour, green, and lib dem coalition here (you said it!) - and I am explaining why that is not correct.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

The thrust of my argument is that when people present an argument that some other party or alliance of parties would fix all the problems they are in due course nearly always proved wrong because those same parties face the same problems.

And we see that in Germany and pretty much anywhere else you care to mention.

And the Lib Dems and FDP are not an exact match but both affiliate(d) to the same grouping in the European parliament, which is a loose coalition of like minded parties, so it's a reasonable thing to say. And yes, plenty of Lib Dems are centre-right as it goes, esp in rural areas where they compete with Tories across South west England for example

Here is what will happen if we get a grouping of centrist.....liberal in the UK sense ......and centre left ......Labour in the UK sense .....together with other parties , including the independents , greens etc

All up against the Tories.......centre right and further right 👉

If the main opposition get enough seats under fptp they can govern alone as is likely to happen at the next election

If they don't and need deals under minority government support they can do that or form coalitions

What's bubbling under is a movement to bring in PR ......the labour and liberal parties have moved on since 2010 ....

If that happens it really doesn't matter if people vote liberal or Labour, if they vote it will keep the conservatives out for long periods of time

And for those of us who refuse to vote conservative and for the smaller parties, including the liberals , that will keep their independence

Ideally the labour and liberal party would merge through osmosis

I think you days are numbered

[Dorcus]

Here is what will happen if we get a grouping of centrist.....liberal in the UK sense ......and centre left ......Labour in the UK sense .....together with other parties , including the independents , greens etc

All up against the Tories.......centre right and further right 👉

If the main opposition get enough seats under fptp they can govern alone as is likely to happen at the next election

If they don't and need deals under minority government support they can do that or form coalitions

What's bubbling under is a movement to bring in PR ......the labour and liberal parties have moved on since 2010 ....

If that happens it really doesn't matter if people vote liberal or Labour, if they vote it will keep the conservatives out for long periods of time

And for those of us who refuse to vote conservative and for the smaller parties, including the liberals , that will keep their independence

Ideally the labour and liberal party would merge through osmosis

I think you days are numbered

If the Labour and Lib Dems parties merge through osmosis they'll each become watered down.

[JamesWales]

Here is what will happen if we get a grouping of centrist.....liberal in the UK sense ......and centre left ......Labour in the UK sense .....together with other parties , including the independents , greens etc

All up against the Tories.......centre right and further right 👉

If the main opposition get enough seats under fptp they can govern alone as is likely to happen at the next election

If they don't and need deals under minority government support they can do that or form coalitions

What's bubbling under is a movement to bring in PR ......the labour and liberal parties have moved on since 2010 ....

If that happens it really doesn't matter if people vote liberal or Labour, if they vote it will keep the conservatives out for long periods of time

And for those of us who refuse to vote conservative and for the smaller parties, including the liberals , that will keep their independence

Ideally the labour and liberal party would merge through osmosis

I think you days are numbered

An interesting theory but where does that happen? Spain? Portugal? Germany? Netherlands? Sweden? France? Italy? All essentially shift between centre right and centre left govts with the odd dalliance with something more extreme.

The same people are saying the exact same things you do about the UK govt in France, Germany, Spain etc but they are saying it about centrist or left of centre govts. That's what happens when you've been in power for a while, or in some cases not very long at all.

Wales is actually a slightly bizarre outliar in all that in terms of the length of time of having essentially the same govt.