Argy bargey

[jon1959]

Pretty certain you were kinda cool with a democratic vote being overiden when it suited too, so not sure you are best places to judge.

When did this happen?

[JamesWales]

When did this happen?

Well this quite extraordinary article was published in the Observer the first Sunday after the EU referendum encouraging people to protest against the democratic result.

I recollect quite a lot of support for casting aside and annulling that vote. Certainly here we a mainstream politician from a mainstream party in an established newspaper effectively calling for that.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/commentisfree/2016/jun/26/second-referendum-consequences-brexit-grave

[cyril evans awaydays]

For what it's worth, my few pennies worth.

I have previously complained about Sludge's blanket and over the top language for any one who doesn't share his outlook but it appears that this is tolerated, certainly not inhibited. Still if you call someone a dopey sod and then take umbrage that you get called a festering wart in response perhaps you should look for some skin thickening products on Amazon.

Similarly telling people to calm down before entering into angry polemics probably fits into the same box.

I think the use of the word "evil" should be saved for people like Lucy Letby or Vladimir Putin. We do seem to reach for hyperbole these days so that competent things become great passes or incredible saves.

I do think the government's actions around asylum seekers are callous and cynical though. Gesture actions aimed at appealing to its dwindling support coupled with attacks on opponents and institutions that stifle them massively trump any rational or collaborative alternatives. There are no voted in seeking collaborative participation in return policies that worked as a deterrent that pre-existed small boats when packing them off to Rwanda or telling them to f*ck off back to France grabs the headlines you want.

Under international convention, asylum seekers have a right to be housed. Providing the minimum necessary like the Bibby Stockholm also fits into the above. Taking a floating dormitory out of Italian mothballs at "warp speed" for "stop the boats week" trumped any sensible consideration or timescale of ensuring it was fit for human habitation. You make it sound like retrospectively rather than preemptively ensuring that you didn't make the occupants seriously ill or even dead was some kind of act of great compassion which shows this government's caring credentials rather than self-administered shit-show it became.

Finally compassion for the homeless and asylum seekers is not an either/or where you can trade off government inaction and failure in one area as justification for similar failures in others. Legal immigration last year, 90% of whom came from outside the EU was ten times higher than the number of asylum applications yet somehow asylum seekers are the reason why the homeless don't have a roof over their heads at night.

[JamesWales]

For what it's worth, my few pennies worth.

I have previously complained about Sludge's blanket and over the top language for any one who doesn't share his outlook but it appears that this is tolerated, certainly not inhibited. Still if you call someone a dopey sod and then take umbrage that you get called a festering wart in response perhaps you should look for some skin thickening products on Amazon.

Similarly telling people to calm down before entering into angry polemics probably fits into the same box.

I think the use of the word "evil" should be saved for people like Lucy Letby or Vladimir Putin. We do seem to reach for hyperbole these days so that competent things become great passes or incredible saves.

I do think the government's actions around asylum seekers are callous and cynical though. Gesture actions aimed at appealing to its dwindling support coupled with attacks on opponents and institutions that stifle them massively trump any rational or collaborative alternatives. There are no voted in seeking collaborative participation in return policies that worked as a deterrent that pre-existed small boats when packing them off to Rwanda or telling them to f*ck off back to France grabs the headlines you want.

Under international convention, asylum seekers have a right to be housed. Providing the minimum necessary like the Bibby Stockholm also fits into the above. Taking a floating dormitory out of Italian mothballs at "warp speed" for "stop the boats week" trumped any sensible consideration or timescale of ensuring it was fit for human habitation. You make it sound like retrospectively rather than preemptively ensuring that you didn't make the occupants seriously ill or even dead was some kind of act of great compassion which shows this government's caring credentials rather than self-administered shit-show it became.

Finally compassion for the homeless and asylum seekers is not an either/or where you can trade off government inaction and failure in one area as justification for similar failures in others. Legal immigration last year, 90% of whom came from outside the EU was ten times higher than the number of asylum applications yet somehow asylum seekers are the reason why the homeless don't have a roof over their heads at night.

Without being too he said she said, the insults are normally far stronger and come first from Sludge. I think some of the stuff he says is outrageous and being called a dopey sod certainly isn't comparable to putting out things on the internet that "people should be scared". But I do agree with you more generally on that point and all of us need to check ourselves sometimes.

Totally agree on use of the word evil. People will unfortunately get angry when people question their parenting of label you evil..both of which have happened in the last 24 hrs.

I think some of the rhetoric on all sides is callous but I don't think the actions are. UKs treatment of asylum seekers and expenditure on things like foreign aid, I think, trumps most countries, but as long as daft words like evil aren't used, I think it's a reasonable debate. My take is that the UK is NOT currently helping the most needy at all, and it is legitimate to object to that when it's our money being spent.

I agree, they aren't a trade off, but in practice when you have sometimes 500 people landing a day they need to be housed immediately and that does require choices of where and how.

The reality here is how unbelievably difficult this situation is, morally, practically, financially and politically. That's the issue, not evil doing.

Personally I think the system is broken. I think the asylum process is totally exploited, I think there is a finite limit to what can be done here and I think the country is playing with fire if we pretend things can carry on as they are.

[Swiss Peter]

Well this quite extraordinary article was published in the Observer the first Sunday after the EU referendum encouraging people to protest against the democratic result.

I recollect quite a lot of support for casting aside and annulling that vote. Certainly here we a mainstream politician from a mainstream party in an established newspaper effectively calling for that.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...s-brexit-grave

Uuurghhh. This. Again.

BS then and BS now.

[the other bob wilson]

Self righteous rant? Hardly. It's called defending myself and holding you to account for hysterical claims of imminent fascism, which again you don't seem to understand that if your portrayal is right then no one would be arriving here. But you arent right. The UK is not some imminent fascist state or remotely close to it. If you actually cared for such matters you would speak out against people like Sludge who in the last month has said "Tories should be scared" and "Liquidated". Pretty certain you were kinda cool with a democratic vote being overiden when it suited too, so not sure you are best places to judge. But you don't really care do you? It's about the 'threat' of fascism and how only your thinking can prevent it. No different to the clowns who claimed Corbyn was a threat of communism.

So again your example of "evil" is the UK assisting to shore, housing and feeding tens of thousands of people who want to live in this "evil" govts state? Your example of "evil" is a legionella test that meant everyone was moved off site to safer accommodation? And then you site a mural being painted over, which I agree seems unnecessary but it's not the norm to have such things at border controls anywhere. Your definition of "evil" sure is a pretty low bar.

Have you actually seen how refugees around the world live? Frequently in tented accommodation at or close to warzones where legions of soldiers are more of a concern than legionella.

You talk of accommodation as if we should have tens of thousands of warm empty flats waiting for everyone but how would that work? Do we keep them empty for years on while we wait? What about homeless people here?

Hasn't Labour committed to keeping the Bobby Stockholm? Does that make them "evil" and by definition, you too?

Or in fact is that a ridiculous, hyperbolic phrase used to try and comprehend am incredibly complex situation?

Honestly, the way you guys throw around the word fascism as if this is remotely comparable to how fascists have treated their victims, you should be ashamed.

Jewish people were not fleeing into 1930s Germany. To compare the two situations is as preposterous as claiming that acting on a legionella outbreak is evil.

Get back in the real world!

And another rant.

Where have I said the Government are fascist or are soon going to become fascist, but, as Eric said, we might be on a slippery slope.

This has been posted on here before, but how many of the twelve categories listed do you think the UK Government can be regarded as completely not guilty of?

https://washingtonmonthly.com/2017/0...ns-of-fascism/

Being generous, I’d say 4,5,7 and 10 with two of them being definitely debatable. If you think any political party that “passes”, say, six of those tests are not going to at least be questioned as to their fascist credentials then I think you’re mistaken - of course, you’ll say that they don’t pass six of the tests, but I look forward to seeing how you explain why points 1,2,3, 8, 9 and 12 do not apply to the Government.

My definition of evil is clearly different to yours, but your habit of thinking your take on any subject should be an end to any debate is being seen in all of its glory in this thread - you’re hardly living up to your self proclaimed tendency to be even handed in your assessments.

[JamesWales]

Uuurghhh. This. Again.

BS then and BS now.

Sorry, what?

[JamesWales]

And another rant.

Where have I said the Government are fascist or are soon going to become fascist, but, as Eric said, we might be on a slippery slope.

This has been posted on here before, but how many of the twelve categories listed do you think the UK Government can be regarded as completely not guilty of?

https://washingtonmonthly.com/2017/0...ns-of-fascism/

Being generous, I’d say 4,5,7 and 10 with two of them being definitely debatable. If you think any political party that “passes”, say, six of those tests are not going to at least be questioned as to their fascist credentials then I think you’re mistaken - of course, you’ll say that they don’t pass six of the tests, but I look forward to seeing how you explain why points 1,2,3, 8, 9 and 12 do not apply to the Government.

My definition of evil is clearly different to yours, but your habit of thinking your take on any subject should be an end to any debate is being seen in all of its glory in this thread - you’re hardly living up to your self proclaimed tendency to be even handed in your assessments.

Why are someone else's points rants, but yours aren't?

We aren't on a slippery slope for to fascism. You can delude yourself that we are, but as I said, people tend not to try to get into countries that are on the slippery slope to fascism, although perhaps you know more?

That test, as have been said before could apply to any country to varying degrees. It's like saying that a universal healthcare system or council housing or a strong military is a slippery slope to communism.
It's ridiculous and the evidence simply does not back up your points at all, and when it doesn't you just say...aaaaaah we could be on the slippery slope! It's literally no different to Qanon types saying Biden is making America communist.

I'm not sure what your definition of evil is but it seems to think that not condemning people calling for people to be scared online is cool, but removing people from accomodation due to a legionaire outbreak is the sign of impending fascism.

For what it's worth, we probably have the same definition of evil, yours is just blinded by hatred for the government even though the opposition will employ the exact same methods in 18 months time if they win the next general election

You can't keep screaming fascism and think that's making a point, Bob. Yesterday I watched a tiktok video of young men cheering as they were brought ashore to the UK. For you or any else to remotely compare that to how people were treated in countries that have genuinely been on the slippery slope to fascism at points throughout history is, sorry to say, historical ignorance of an extraordinary level.

[the other bob wilson]

Why are someone else's points rants, but yours aren't?

We aren't on a slippery slope for to fascism. You can delude yourself that we are, but as I said, people tend not to try to get into countries that are on the slippery slope to fascism, although perhaps you know more?

That test, as have been said before could apply to any country to varying degrees. It's like saying that a universal healthcare system or council housing or a strong military is a slippery slope to communism.
It's ridiculous and the evidence simply does not back up your points at all, and when it doesn't you just say...aaaaaah we could be on the slippery slope! It's literally no different to Qanon types saying Biden is making America communist.

I'm not sure what your definition of evil is but it seems to think that not condemning people calling for people to be scared online is cool, but removing people from accomodation due to a legionaire outbreak is the sign of impending fascism.

For what it's worth, we probably have the same definition of evil, yours is just blinded by hatred for the government even though the opposition will employ the exact same methods in 18 months time if they win the next general election

You can't keep screaming fascism and think that's making a point, Bob. Yesterday I watched a tiktok video of young men cheering as they were brought ashore to the UK. For you or any else to remotely compare that to how people were treated in countries that have genuinely been on the slippery slope to fascism at points throughout history is, sorry to say, historical ignorance of an extraordinary level.

Lots of words used to, essentially, dodge the question I asked you. I’m hardly “screaming” fascism, I’m saying that the Government “passes” parts of the fascism test as defined by those twelve questions.

As for this point you keep banging on about, doesn’t it all depend on what life was like in your homeland? In Afghanistan for example, someone who was known to have helped the anti Taliban forces before the allied forces left would surely view a move to this country with its Government that some might think is blurring the line between right wing and fascist as the better option.

[Eric Cartman]

Well this quite extraordinary article was published in the Observer the first Sunday after the EU referendum encouraging people to protest against the democratic result.

I recollect quite a lot of support for casting aside and annulling that vote. Certainly here we a mainstream politician from a mainstream party in an established newspaper effectively calling for that.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...s-brexit-grave

I'm glad you are owning Brexit, how's controlling those borders going? Must be a piece of piss now.

[JamesWales]

Lots of words used to, essentially, dodge the question I asked you. I’m hardly “screaming” fascism, I’m saying that the Government “passes” parts of the fascism test as defined by those twelve questions.

As for this point you keep banging on about, doesn’t it all depend on what life was like in your homeland? In Afghanistan for example, someone who was known to have helped the anti Taliban forces before the allied forces left would surely view a move to this country with its Government that some might think is blurring the line between right wing and fascist as the better option.

That isn't some definitive test of fascism though, and as I said, by the same token it's like saying Corbyn or Biden or whomever are on the road to Communism. That's the kind of whackos who pump out this idea that everything is on the road to totalitarianism. It's like saying becoming a vegetarian or being okay at watercolours means you are developing Hitleresque qualities. All context is removed, which is probably why it's popular with conspiracy theorist types who thing hell is just around the corner.

By your second logic you presumably think that every other country they have passed through is further down the road to fascism and is more evil than us, because they have already escaped the Taliban. The biggest nationality by far in 2022 (when you were making exactly the same arguments) was Alabanian people, living in a European democracy with a socialist govt. So how does your logic work there?

Real life question now..

What would you do in this situation? Who is in the wrong? What's the answer? Is it okay to say "oh it will only be families etc?"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-66585127

[JamesWales]

I'm glad you are owning Brexit, how's controlling those borders going? Must be a piece of piss now.

Not owning anything Eric. Just pointing out that a mainstream politician from a mainstream party in a mainstream newspaper was trying to overturn a democratic result a mere days after it happened.

If moving people off a boat for their safety due to legionella puts us on the road to fascism, I wonder where that put us? Bombing down the motorway, surely?

[the other bob wilson]

That isn't some definitive test of fascism though, and as I said, by the same token it's like saying Corbyn or Biden or whomever are on the road to Communism. That's the kind of whackos who pump out this idea that everything is on the road to totalitarianism. It's like saying becoming a vegetarian or being okay at watercolours means you are developing Hitleresque qualities. All context is removed, which is probably why it's popular with conspiracy theorist types who thing hell is just around the corner.

By your second logic you presumably think that every other country they have passed through is further down the road to fascism and is more evil than us, because they have already escaped the Taliban. The biggest nationality by far in 2022 (when you were making exactly the same arguments) was Alabanian people, living in a European democracy with a socialist govt. So how does your logic work there?

Real life question now..

What would you do in this situation? Who is in the wrong? What's the answer? Is it okay to say "oh it will only be families etc?"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-66585127

It’s not for me to say. Unlike some, I’m not obsessed by the subject, so my knowledge of the subject isn’t detailed enough to claim I know all of the answers to the problem but that doesn’t mean I’m unable to voice my disapproval of the Government’s gaslighting. In the Afghanistan example I mentioned, the UK would most likely be the first choice for the people concerned.

Surprised at your lack of a reply to the questions I asked about fascism, all you’ve got is a load of whataboutism and the use of that word “context” which people who are losing an argument are so quick to turn to.

[Eric Cartman]

Not owning anything Eric. Just pointing out that a mainstream politician from a mainstream party in a mainstream newspaper was trying to overturn a democratic result a mere days after it happened.

How do you 'try to overturn a democratic result' in a newspaper? Were people who thought Brexit was a) and/or b) undefined meant to not exist post referendum?

The reality is, brexit has been a disaster, not because of implementation but because everybody who voted for it was living in a fairytale land. I would rather politicians who don't change their mind to suit public opinion and who are willing to tell us things we don't want to hear. That's precisely what we need right now as the economy steams towards the cliff edge.

[the other bob wilson]

It's in the Guardian, so it's probably all bollox.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...dey-park-hotel

[Swiss Peter]

Sorry, what?

Oh, sorry! The very short answer was because I have no intention of entering a brexit debate (the utter futility of that dawned on me long ago) but will still always call out disingenuous nonsense on the matter whenever I see it.

The longer answer would have been pretty much what Eric has since posted anyway.

[Dorcus]

It's in the Guardian, so it's probably all bollox.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...dey-park-hotel

That's so harrowing and worrying. I might have expected that in the English shires but I thought the Welsh were better than that. Whatever happened to "we'll keep a welcome in the hillsides"?

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

That's so harrowing and worrying. I might have expected that in the English shires but I thought the Welsh were better than that. Whatever happened to "we'll keep a welcome in the hillsides"?

The genuine concerns of locals have been poked and stirred by the far right and these people are being used

Patriotic Alternative turned up in Llantwit a few months ago and were sent on their way but even they poured petrol on things

[Dorcus]

The genuine concerns of locals have been poked and stirred by the far right and these people are being used

Patriotic Alternative turned up in Llantwit a few months ago and were sent on their way but even they poured petrol on things

What genuine concerns? Thats all based on myths stoked up by the rightwing. Why don't these people just live and let live? They might experience more happiness as a result.

[jon1959]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66603767


The backlog of asylum cases in the UK has risen to a new record high, Home Office figures show.

More than 175,000 people were waiting for a decision on whether they will be granted refugee status at the end of June 2023 - up 44% from last year.

Prime Minister Rishi Sunak has set a target of clearing the so-called legacy backlog by the end of the year.

Since his promise in December 2022, Home Office officials have cleared on average 2,061 cases a month.

With 67,870 cases remaining, the Home Office will have to process with 11,311 cases per month if it is to meet its target.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66603767


The backlog of asylum cases in the UK has risen to a new record high, Home Office figures show.

More than 175,000 people were waiting for a decision on whether they will be granted refugee status at the end of June 2023 - up 44% from last year.

Prime Minister Rishi Sunak has set a target of clearing the so-called legacy backlog by the end of the year.

Since his promise in December 2022, Home Office officials have cleared on average 2,061 cases a month.

With 67,870 cases remaining, the Home Office will have to process with 11,311 cases per month if it is to meet its target.

In other words it's not going to happen

20 new hospitals

10000 more police officers

Etc Etc

[JamesWales]

It’s not for me to say. Unlike some, I’m not obsessed by the subject, so my knowledge of the subject isn’t detailed enough to claim I know all of the answers to the problem but that doesn’t mean I’m unable to voice my disapproval of the Government’s gaslighting. In the Afghanistan example I mentioned, the UK would most likely be the first choice for the people concerned.

Surprised at your lack of a reply to the questions I asked about fascism, all you’ve got is a load of whataboutism and the use of that word “context” which people who are losing an argument are so quick to turn to.

It does highlight the complexities on the ground though doesn't it. The four star hotel (hardly bad accommodation) the 100 staff with lost jobs (dreadful for them), the Plaid local council doesn't want it used (almost as if all parties see the reality when having to make a decision), the home Office (the evil ones?) does want it used. Lack of local community consultation (should they have a say?) the promise to only house families (what about all the young men, where do they go?)

It's a very difficult and complex situation, and severval more boats arrive every day.

The list of 12 early warning signs of fascism..I thought you WEREN'T saying we were going down that route? I don't think the UK ticks any of those boxes tbh. I think it's fairly daft list that can be applied by opponents of nearly every regime to almost any regime.

As I said, similar lists and memes are shared online to try and present Biden as turning America into some communist state, but they are all ridiculous.

Not sure how much further this thread can go either, but I'm taking a short break for the BH weekend, so wishing you a great one 👍

[ninian opinian]

“That barge thing”, been in Portland now for 81 days with a DAILY mooring cost of £24,500.

That's £1,984,500 so far to the Tory donors who own the port, see how it works?

Jamey to defend in 1, 2, 3 …… but Labour, but Jeremy Corbyn, but those anti-growth coalition, but the left teachers, nurses and doctors blah blah bloody blah.