Argy bargey

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

They are taking far too long to determine decisions. But they are dealing with people who throw away all identity papers, routinely lie and by lawyers who tell them exactly how to beat the system.

That won't change under a new government

The party that you help prop up have told you and the country , once elected .....time after time since 2010 that THEY would deal with immigration , migration and stop the boats etc

They knew all this nonsense when they made false promises . It's their fault and your fault for voting for them .

You will never learn.

You are not on here to be moderate . Your default position is to defend the Conservative Party.

That's how you operate .

[Eric Cartman]

They are taking far too long to determine decisions. But they are dealing with people who throw away all identity papers, routinely lie and by lawyers who tell them exactly how to beat the system.

That won't change under a new government

Do you feel the need to evidence that being the main reason for claims being processed slowly?

We seem to know the country of origin of most people in the backlog.

Interestingly when the backlog was high previously in the early 2000s we were able to pump out many many more decisions. Presumably this was before lawyers existed or lying became common place.

Also interesting to note that we are receiving less claims per head of population than the majority of Europe and it's taking us far longer per case. Presumably the migrants don't lie there and lawyers haven't made their way to continent yet. Lucky bastards.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

I blame The French

According to The Sun they are all lazy with the borders

That's good enough for me

They can't possibly print lies 🤥

[the other bob wilson]

Actually Mr Nice Guy, I was asked by Bob to reply.

And no, I don't think they are doing well. But I don't think the opposition offer anything that would solve it either. That's more or less been my point.

Most people have calmer, more rational opinions than you on most topics. Every City defeat I bet you think it's the worst defeat in history and the manager should be sacked.

So, thats your measured reply to my post - the Tories have done a crap job on immigration, but I still support them on it? Maybe it’s time for you to beat a hasty retreat from this thread, that’s the best thing to do when someone takes a hiding like you’ve done here.

[JamesWales]

Do you feel the need to evidence that being the main reason for claims being processed slowly?

We seem to know the country of origin of most people in the backlog.

Interestingly when the backlog was high previously in the early 2000s we were able to pump out many many more decisions. Presumably this was before lawyers existed or lying became common place.

Also interesting to note that we are receiving less claims per head of population than the majority of Europe and it's taking us far longer per case. Presumably the migrants don't lie there and lawyers haven't made their way to continent yet. Lucky bastards.

Why do you think the backlog is so high?

[JamesWales]

So, thats your measured reply to my post - the Tories have done a crap job on immigration, but I still support them on it? Maybe it’s time for you to beat a hasty retreat from this thread, that’s the best thing to do when someone takes a hiding like you’ve done here.

Hiding? It's just the angry crew reforming the band! Fundamentally you can't accept an answer that isn't based on a problem being solved by a change of govt. But I don't believe, in this case, it will make a blind bit of difference. In fact, I think it would quite possibly make it worse.

I've consistently asked for solutions to the problem from people who do nothing but moan about it. That is never forthcoming. Doesn't sound like a hiding to me!

[JamesWales]

So, thats your measured reply to my post - the Tories have done a crap job on immigration, but I still support them on it? Maybe it’s time for you to beat a hasty retreat from this thread, that’s the best thing to do when someone takes a hiding like you’ve done here.

I did try having a break too but then Sludge told me off for having a weekend away in August!

[jon1959]

I've consistently asked for solutions to the problem from people who do nothing but moan about it. That is never forthcoming.

That is not true.

Several posters on here have taken the trouble to provide you with a programme of detailed and well thought through measures that would provide at least a partial solution. You just don't like the answer.

Instead of safe routes, ability to make asylum claims before arrival, sped up processing by the Home Office, effective international action against people smugglers and much else you prefer to stick with Tory gesture politics and the massively expensive and stupid Rwanda policy that barely scratches the surface and is supposed to deter the small boats (but is a total failure on every count).

You ignore the posts that demolish your stance and continue to claim that something (even if stupid and expensive) is better than nothing. You have certainly taken a hiding!

[JamesWales]

That is not true.

Several posters on here have taken the trouble to provide you with a programme of detailed and well thought through measures that would provide at least a partial solution. You just don't like the answer.

Instead of safe routes, ability to make asylum claims before arrival, sped up processing by the Home Office, effective international action against people smugglers and much else you prefer to stick with Tory gesture politics and the massively expensive and stupid Rwanda policy that barely scratches the surface and is supposed to deter the small boats (but is a total failure on every count).

You ignore the posts that demolish your stance and continue to claim that something (even if stupid and expensive) is better than nothing. You have certainly taken a hiding!

Sorry, but they are not solutions, let alone 'demolish a stance'. Let's go through it:

Ability to make asylum claims before arrival - likely to lead to a huge increase in claims. Increases the numbers coming and to be processed. Would France support this? Would it actually stop people still coming on boats anyway? Why believe they will patiently wait in France etc? If people are calmly applying for asylum in their origin destinations then are they really likely to be the most needy?

Sped up processing by the home Office - easy to say but how in practice are you doing that or are you cutting corners? The govt hasnt changed in ten years, yet the claims have massively increased so clearly something has changed - a change of govt in Afghanistan is of course a part of that, but what else

Effective international action against people smugglers - Completely agree. They are scum of the earth and it's good to see some arrested yesterday in relation to the channel deaths but again, far easier said than done. I'd love to see more of it.

So no, I havent seen what I would view as a viable set of solutions. Jesus, it took about a year to get some to accept that the highest number by far being Albanian people was clear evidence of mass abuse of the system! Thankfully that has now been largely sorted at least, that is something.

This is my point. Loads of you want to just blame the govt (and to an extent that's fair) but I don't think you aren't going to solve the issue by doing that.

[Eric Cartman]

Hiding? It's just the angry crew reforming the band! Fundamentally you can't accept an answer that isn't based on a problem being solved by a change of govt. But I don't believe, in this case, it will make a blind bit of difference. In fact, I think it would quite possibly make it worse.

I've consistently asked for solutions to the problem from people who do nothing but moan about it. That is never forthcoming. Doesn't sound like a hiding to me!

Where have I said we need a change of government in this thread?

You carry this 'party political' strawman around with you but most of the time the first person to mention a political party in a thread is either you or LOM.

[JamesWales]

Where have I said we need a change of government in this thread?

You carry this 'party political' strawman around with you but most of the time the first person to mention a political party in a thread is either you or LOM.

It's what most narratives on here point to. If you don't think would change/improve automatically with a new govt then we are in agreement on that and I would consider that progress in the debate!

Second point isnt really true is it. I have never once criticised anyone for voting anyway whatsoever in my entire life and I think most problems exist irrespective of parties and that most solutions would be provided irrespective too. Tweaks around the edges, but not much else.

[Eric Cartman]

It's what most narratives on here point to. If you don't think would change/improve automatically with a new govt then we are in agreement on that and I would consider that progress in the debate!

Second point isnt really true is it. I have never once criticised anyone for voting anyway whatsoever in my entire life and I think most problems exist irrespective of parties and that most solutions would be provided irrespective too. Tweaks around the edges, but not much else.

So you had decided that I thought everything would automatically improve with a labour government? Tad arrogant maybe?

You are conflating two things. People who rant on about Tories and people who criticise government policies.

Situation requires a few things to resolve as Jon points to above, mainly:

- faster processing
- international consensus over policing/gangs/sentencing

The first point is far more worthy becuase it is entirely in our control. I was being called naive earlier in this thread but really the naive people are those who believed migration pledges of the past and let's be honest 'stop the boats' is just a rehash. People will enter the country illegally, let's stop pretending anybody can stop that and just make the system more resilient.

I think there is solid evidence to suggest that the situation would improve under a different government, policy/rhetoric moving further towards being isolationist and beyond that just plain downright arrogance towards Europe at times has not helped this government internationally post-brexit. I suspect labour's rhetoric around brexit and Europe would soften a lot if elected, don't need to be a genius to realise that brexit is a big trap for them. In short I think the flag waving and faux patriotism is a tool they are deploying quite successfully (in the polls at least) but will not influence policies if elected.

The biggy is whether they can run the home office better. Who knows but if we spent every penny of the money spent on meme solutions like Rwanda and barges on equipping and improving the system I think results would improve and the backlog would reduce.

It's worth noting that the government are taking steps to the do the above but because of the time and resources wasted on the meme policies, we are well behind where we could be.

And maybe rather than make these people the villains of the piece we could take a second or two to imagine what it must be like to be in limbo, in temporary accommodation while somebody decides your future. Especially if you have a solid claim to asylum like the many many thousands here from Afghanistan, Iran and Syria, etc.

[cyril evans awaydays]

Sorry, but they are not solutions, let alone 'demolish a stance'. Let's go through it:

Ability to make asylum claims before arrival - likely to lead to a huge increase in claims. Increases the numbers coming and to be processed. Would France support this? Would it actually stop people still coming on boats anyway? Why believe they will patiently wait in France etc? If people are calmly applying for asylum in their origin destinations then are they really likely to be the most needy?

The French not only support this but they have been proposing it as part of the solution for a few years. They have no problem with processing centres staffed by UK officials, it is UK officials on French beaches or patrolling their waters they take umbrage at.

https://www.france24.com/en/france/2...channel-crisis

https://www.ft.com/content/9732dbb7-...3-55223a6d8ed3

I see earlier that you now see the best remaining solution as the UK following Russia and Belarus by exiting the Council of Europe meaning we could start removing aspects of the European Convention of Human Rights that we didn't like.

I had thought that the current government started to try and implement this with its Bill of Rights replacing the Human Rights Act that enshrines the ECHR before they pulled the plug on it about 6 weeks ago. The ECHR is interwoven into the Good Friday Agreement and the Withdrawal Agreement with the EU.

I know it is flavour of the month for a cabal of right wing Tories and populists like Anderson but it would be interesting to understand why you think the pros of such a move outweigh the cons?

[JamesWales]

So you had decided that I thought everything would automatically improve with a labour government? Tad arrogant maybe?

You are conflating two things. People who rant on about Tories and people who criticise government policies.

Situation requires a few things to resolve as Jon points to above, mainly:

- faster processing
- international consensus over policing/gangs/sentencing

The first point is far more worthy becuase it is entirely in our control. I was being called naive earlier in this thread but really the naive people are those who believed migration pledges of the past and let's be honest 'stop the boats' is just a rehash. People will enter the country illegally, let's stop pretending anybody can stop that and just make the system more resilient.

I think there is solid evidence to suggest that the situation would improve under a different government, policy/rhetoric moving further towards being isolationist and beyond that just plain downright arrogance towards Europe at times has not helped this government internationally post-brexit. I suspect labour's rhetoric around brexit and Europe would soften a lot if elected, don't need to be a genius to realise that brexit is a big trap for them. In short I think the flag waving and faux patriotism is a tool they are deploying quite successfully (in the polls at least) but will not influence policies if elected.

The biggy is whether they can run the home office better. Who knows but if we spent every penny of the money spent on meme solutions like Rwanda and barges on equipping and improving the system I think results would improve and the backlog would reduce.

It's worth noting that the government are taking steps to the do the above but because of the time and resources wasted on the meme policies, we are well behind where we could be.

And maybe rather than make these people the villains of the piece we could take a second or two to imagine what it must be like to be in limbo, in temporary accommodation while somebody decides your future. Especially if you have a solid claim to asylum like the many many thousands here from Afghanistan, Iran and Syria, etc.

Eric I'm talking more generally on here, not necessarily that you think everything will automatically improve. More the impression many give off, helped by the opposition's rhetoric it should be said, that they themselves are rowing back from somewhat now, that every problem is caused by the govt. It isn't, and that goes for Westminster and Cardiff and everywhere else!

It's easy to say improve the processing, but harder to do. And nothing to stop people coming back for more under a different identity. It's not easy at all

You are right to remember how difficult this situation is and the plight of refugees. But if you think the current set up is aiding the most vulnerable in the world then I'm afraid that is naive, because it really isn't. It's benefiting the wealthier, fitter amongst them and that in 2022 the greatest beneficiaries were Albanian men is actually pretty sick in many respects given who this is designed to help.

[JamesWales]

The French not only support this but they have been proposing it as part of the solution for a few years. They have no problem with processing centres staffed by UK officials, it is UK officials on French beaches or patrolling their waters they take umbrage at.

https://www.france24.com/en/france/2...channel-crisis

https://www.ft.com/content/9732dbb7-...3-55223a6d8ed3

I see earlier that you now see the best remaining solution as the UK following Russia and Belarus by exiting the Council of Europe meaning we could start removing aspects of the European Convention of Human Rights that we didn't like.

I had thought that the current government started to try and implement this with its Bill of Rights replacing the Human Rights Act that enshrines the ECHR before they pulled the plug on it about 6 weeks ago. The ECHR is interwoven into the Good Friday Agreement and the Withdrawal Agreement with the EU.

I know it is flavour of the month for a cabal of right wing Tories and populists like Anderson but it would be interesting to understand why you think the pros of such a move outweigh the cons?

I'm not entirely sure the French would be happy with that, and I don't think the article says so. I think it's suggesting processing those already in France. I think it would likely serve as a huge pull and those rejected would just sail anyway, quite possibly.

I increasingly think the and is being abused and quite possibly doing more harm than good. These things happen. Not every act with an honourable name is necessarily a good, or perfect one.

[cyril evans awaydays]

I'm not entirely sure the French would be happy with that, and I don't think the article says so. I think it's suggesting processing those already in France. I think it would likely serve as a huge pull and those rejected would just sail anyway, quite possibly.

I increasingly think the and is being abused and quite possibly doing more harm than good. These things happen. Not every act with an honourable name is necessarily a good, or perfect one.

So when the first article said "French officials have already suggested that British immigration officials process asylum requests in northern France from migrants camped out around the major ports on France's coast." you didn't think it meant that? I remember when the the key issue for you was to remove the people traffickers rather than those seeking legitimate means of seeking asylum in the UK. We seem to have moved on from that and the people themselves seem to be the problem.

It's not beyond the wit of people that spunk billions on African deportations, making the UK a weaker adherent to the international law framework we set up and procuring mothballed floating dormitories as solutions to have some kind of carrot and stick system that allows legitimate routes and penalises those who spurn them.

I am not sure what evidential base you have for people chucking away their ids but I for one don't think anyone who can't prove who they are at a point of entry into this country should be allowed in as presumably they "lost " them between the point they arrived in the EU and when they racked up in Calais.

The question I asked about the UK being one the third state in Europe after Russia and Belarus to leave the Council of Europe and the ECHR was why the disbenefits of unscrambing the Good Friday Agreement and the EU Withdrawal act were outweighed by resolving asylum seeking by making it easier to deport a few people to Rwanda.

[JamesWales]

So when the first article said "French officials have already suggested that British immigration officials process asylum requests in northern France from migrants camped out around the major ports on France's coast." you didn't think it meant that? I remember when the the key issue for you was to remove the people traffickers rather than those seeking legitimate means of seeking asylum in the UK. We seem to have moved on from that and the people themselves seem to be the problem.

It's not beyond the wit of people that spunk billions on African deportations, making the UK a weaker adherent to the international law framework we set up and procuring mothballed floating dormitories as solutions to have some kind of carrot and stick system that allows legitimate routes and penalises those who spurn them.

I am not sure what evidential base you have for people chucking away their ids but I for one don't think anyone who can't prove who they are at a point of entry into this country should be allowed in as presumably they "lost " them between the point they arrived in the EU and when they racked up in Calais.

The question I asked about the UK being one the third state in Europe after Russia and Belarus to leave the Council of Europe and the ECHR was why the disbenefits of unscrambing the Good Friday Agreement and the EU Withdrawal act were outweighed by resolving asylum seeking by making it easier to deport a few people to Rwanda.

Do you honestly think the French state would be happy with the UK setting up a little piece of brightly on their soil and inviting tens of thousands of people to line up nicely to be processed?

This is what I mean when I talk of a convenient naiivity on the left. You know it's nonsense. Labour know it's nonsense. It won't work.

And we haven't deported anyone to Rwanda. Maybe if we did if would seperate those in genuine need, those in threat of death from people who understandably want a better life

The reality is millions upon millions of people are entitled to asylum in the UK under current rules and we need to decide whether we prioritise them or people here who have no homes / can't afford rent / have no dentist etc etc

And yes, it is a choice. Resources are finite. You personally may be okay, but others are looking at people jumping the queue and it's wrong

[cyril evans awaydays]

Do you honestly think the French state would be happy with the UK setting up a little piece of brightly on their soil and inviting tens of thousands of people to line up nicely to be processed?

This is what I mean when I talk of a convenient naiivity on the left. You know it's nonsense. Labour know it's nonsense. It won't work.

And we haven't deported anyone to Rwanda. Maybe if we did if would seperate those in genuine need, those in threat of death from people who understandably want a better life

The reality is millions upon millions of people are entitled to asylum in the UK under current rules and we need to decide whether we prioritise them or people here who have no homes / can't afford rent / have no dentist etc etc

And yes, it is a choice. Resources are finite. You personally may be okay, but others are looking at people jumping the queue and it's wrong

You have been pilloried by others in this thread for donning the cloak of a political sophisticate then calling out others for their unworldiness.

Yet your realpolitik seems to stretch no further than supporting any half-baked or illegal proposal eminating from this government or its populist followers. Whether it was Priti Patel's short lived "turn the boats around in the channel" that couldn't even get past the Ministry of Defence let alone international law, flights to Rwanda or disease ridden floating dormitories you have been the policy's parrot on here.

No sooner does leaving the Council of Europe so that we can abandon any commitments in the ECHR that we don't like become a bugle call for the right wing of the Tory Party and Faragists that suddenly this becomes your solution of the month, regardless of cost or wider impact.

The truth is that when we left the EU and its Dublin III rules then our ability to return asylum seekers to their registered point of first entry was cut off at the knees. All asylum seekers entering the EU at first point of entry are fingerprinted and details entered onto its EuroDac system which again we no longer have access to since 2021.

Still if you think that options offered by the French are naive and dissing any other proposals that aren't hard-arsed makes you feel a pragmatic realist then perhaps we shouldn't burst your bubble.

[Dorcus]

You have been pilloried by others in this thread for donning the cloak of a political sophisticate then calling out others for their unworldiness.

Yet your realpolitik seems to stretch no further than supporting any half-baked or illegal proposal eminating from this government or its populist followers. Whether it was Priti Patel's short lived "turn the boats around in the channel" that couldn't even get past the Ministry of Defence let alone international law, flights to Rwanda or disease ridden floating dormitories you have been the policy's parrot on here.

No sooner does leaving the Council of Europe so that we can abandon any commitments in the ECHR that we don't like become a bugle call for the right wing of the Tory Party and Faragists that suddenly this becomes your solution of the month, regardless of cost or wider impact.

The truth is that when we left the EU and its Dublin III rules then our ability to return asylum seekers to their registered point of first entry was cut off at the knees. All asylum seekers entering the EU at first point of entry are fingerprinted and details entered onto its EuroDac system which again we no longer have access to since 2021.

Still if you think that options offered by the French are naive and dissing any other proposals that aren't hard-arsed makes you feel a pragmatic realist then perhaps we shouldn't burst your bubble.

I think any self respecting pragmatic realist should stop worrying about the spectre of millions of human beings whom he will never encounter, know or get affected by and concentrate on the aspects of his own circumstances which he is able to influence and manage.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

You have been pilloried by others in this thread for donning the cloak of a political sophisticate then calling out others for their unworldiness.

Yet your realpolitik seems to stretch no further than supporting any half-baked or illegal proposal eminating from this government or its populist followers. Whether it was Priti Patel's short lived "turn the boats around in the channel" that couldn't even get past the Ministry of Defence let alone international law, flights to Rwanda or disease ridden floating dormitories you have been the policy's parrot on here.

No sooner does leaving the Council of Europe so that we can abandon any commitments in the ECHR that we don't like become a bugle call for the right wing of the Tory Party and Faragists that suddenly this becomes your solution of the month, regardless of cost or wider impact.

The truth is that when we left the EU and its Dublin III rules then our ability to return asylum seekers to their registered point of first entry was cut off at the knees. All asylum seekers entering the EU at first point of entry are fingerprinted and details entered onto its EuroDac system which again we no longer have access to since 2021.

Still if you think that options offered by the French are naive and dissing any other proposals that aren't hard-arsed makes you feel a pragmatic realist then perhaps we shouldn't burst your bubble.

You shouldn't get an answer to this apart from ......fair enough I accept that

But it's going to be more guff

As sure as night follows day

[Dorcus]

You shouldn't get an answer to this apart from ......fair enough I accept that

But it's going to be more guff

As sure as night follows day

It'll be.....yes but, no but.....ad infinitum 😭

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

It'll be.....yes but, no but.....ad infinitum 😭

He is Tory Boy from Harry Enfield

[Dorcus]

He is Tory Boy from Harry Enfield

Loadsamoney, loadsamoney!

I'm taking my wad for a walk.

[JamesWales]

You have been pilloried by others in this thread for donning the cloak of a political sophisticate then calling out others for their unworldiness.

Yet your realpolitik seems to stretch no further than supporting any half-baked or illegal proposal eminating from this government or its populist followers. Whether it was Priti Patel's short lived "turn the boats around in the channel" that couldn't even get past the Ministry of Defence let alone international law, flights to Rwanda or disease ridden floating dormitories you have been the policy's parrot on here.

No sooner does leaving the Council of Europe so that we can abandon any commitments in the ECHR that we don't like become a bugle call for the right wing of the Tory Party and Faragists that suddenly this becomes your solution of the month, regardless of cost or wider impact.

The truth is that when we left the EU and its Dublin III rules then our ability to return asylum seekers to their registered point of first entry was cut off at the knees. All asylum seekers entering the EU at first point of entry are fingerprinted and details entered onto its EuroDac system which again we no longer have access to since 2021.

Still if you think that options offered by the French are naive and dissing any other proposals that aren't hard-arsed makes you feel a pragmatic realist then perhaps we shouldn't burst your bubble.

No political sophisticate here Cyril. I just disagree with several of you on here and think the proposed solutions outlined would not work. I know many dwell in silos but it's not that uncommon for people to disagree with you is it?!

You also didn't really address the points raised and went straight for the ad hominem attack. A consistent attack if nothing else! Like I said, I think loads of you know what you propose won't work, but you perhaps don't care, I dunno?

There were also more transfers to the UK than from it under the Dublin III agreement

[the other bob wilson]

No political sophisticate here Cyril. I just disagree with several of you on here and think the proposed solutions outlined would not work. I know many dwell in silos but it's not that uncommon for people to disagree with you is it?!

You also didn't really address the points raised and went straight for the ad hominem attack. A consistent attack if nothing else! Like I said, I think loads of you know what you propose won't work, but you perhaps don't care, I dunno?

There were also more transfers to the UK than from it under the Dublin III agreement

And James Wales struggles up from the canvas for the fifteenth time in this thread, I suppose you’ve got to admire his resilience, but his corner really should throw the towel in now - failing that, maybe a moderator could step in to avoid him taking further punishment