Imagine Norwich winning the FA Cup

[the other bob wilson]

The last sentence here sums it all up nicely. There's a lot of politics in the background with the Spanish women's national team but it strikes me as a totally overblown situation now.

Not sure I'm confortable with situations like this being labelled as sexual assault

Neither am I, but I’m also not comfortable about the opinion of the woman concerned being ignored by those only too eager to cry “woke”.

[Jordi Culé]

What every single drunken snog when you have gone into kiss someone, you have always obtained their clear consent and then they have never ever pulled away? Hmm.

Hmmmm (indeed)...

You're coming across as a drunken sex pest here. I'm not suggesting you are but no I never felt the urge to try and snog someone on the off chance.

Obviously your understanding of 'consent' is, it's what you are consenting to do, not the other person (victim)?

You sound like your hero Boris Johnson buddy.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Neither am I, but I’m also not comfortable about the opinion of the woman concerned being ignored by those only too eager to cry “woke”.

I must admit I don't know much about what "woke" is or means, so I've just looked it up. Definition is being aware, especially of social injustice and discrimination. I always thought it was a derogatory term, but it's obviously anything but. Clearly anyone using the word "woke" to describe someone in a negative way can only come from someone who doesn't give a shit about social injustice and discrimination.

[the other bob wilson]

I must admit I don't know much about what "woke" is or means, so I've just looked it up. Definition is being aware, especially of social injustice and discrimination. I always thought it was a derogatory term, but it's obviously anything but. Clearly anyone using the word "woke" to describe someone in a negative way can only come from someone who doesn't give a shit about social injustice and discrimination.

Being called woke is a compliment in my world, but people who always bang on about freedom of choice for themselves with no thought for those who suffer as a result clearly think differently.

[JamesWales]

Hmmmm (indeed)...

You're coming across as a drunken sex pest here. I'm not suggesting you are but no I never felt the urge to try and snog someone on the off chance.

Obviously your understanding of 'consent' is, it's what you are consenting to do, not the other person (victim)?

You sound like your hero Boris Johnson buddy.

Wtf, kind of escalation is this?! 😂

So you are saying, every kiss you have ever had, when you have made the first move you have absolutely 100% established consent first (verbal or written) and that you know 100% that she wanted to kiss you at that moment?

I sincerely doubt that this is the case. This kind of talk is the kind of thing that is contributing to a lot of anxiety around sexuality in younger people tbh.

These are different example to the case in question, which was awkward and there are questions over the power dynamic etc but it's not sexual assault

[JamesWales]

I must admit I don't know much about what "woke" is or means, so I've just looked it up. Definition is being aware, especially of social injustice and discrimination. I always thought it was a derogatory term, but it's obviously anything but. Clearly anyone using the word "woke" to describe someone in a negative way can only come from someone who doesn't give a shit about social injustice and discrimination.

That's what woke people think it means! It can be used either way, as it tends to be used in a derogatory sense for people who take an extreme response to such solutions, insert race politics inyo every situation, create division etc.

[JamesWales]

Neither am I, but I’m also not comfortable about the opinion of the woman concerned being ignored by those only too eager to cry “woke”.

Yes, I agree, although I don't think anyone is saying she should be ignored, and it's clearly not an issue being swept under the carpet. It's whether it is, or whether it should be considered sexual assault that matters, and what the consequences are if it is classed as such, as opposed perhaps to just an awkward exhange between two people

[Whisperer]

Georgie Porgie pudding and pie kissed the girls and made them cry when the media came out to play all hell broke loose.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

That's what woke people think it means! It can be used either way, as it tends to be used in a derogatory sense for people who take an extreme response to such solutions, insert race politics inyo every situation, create division etc.

Ah, so the racists, sexists etc have their own definition, which doesn't feature in any dictionary. Thanks for clearing that up.

[Tuerto]

Ask yourself a question, would anyone on here think it acceptable to do that to a woman in the work place, or anywhere else for that matter? You wouldn't dare, right? He's behaved that way because he thinks it acceptable, because he thinks that he can do it, it's all about him and nothing about the Player who he kissed, it was a power grab, a way of dominating a moment that had **** all to do with him.

He should just walk, more than anything for me, it's insulting, like treating the player in question like a child. He's moved in on her success, her brilliance. It's not just a kiss.

[JamesWales]

Ah, so the racists, sexists etc have their own definition, which doesn't feature in any dictionary. Thanks for clearing that up.

It does feature though:

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/woke


https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dic...y/english/woke

[JamesWales]

Ask yourself a question, would anyone on here think it acceptable to do that to a woman in the work place, or anywhere else for that matter? You wouldn't dare, right? He's behaved that way because he thinks it acceptable, because he thinks that he can do it, it's all about him and nothing about the Player who he kissed, it was a power grab, a way of dominating a moment that had **** all to do with him.

He should just walk, more than anything for me, it's insulting, like treating the player in question like a child. He's moved in on her success, her brilliance. It's not just a kiss.

Although that is a fair point, context does matter. She wrapped her arms around him and lifted him up in the air.

I've been in a few successful meetings before but no one has ever done that.

The context is they had just won the world cup.

What he did was wrong and awkward but it's still an enormous overreaction as a story in my opinion and people should be cautious of the legal fall out from things like this really, in my opinion

[lardy]

Although that is a fair point, context does matter. She wrapped her arms around him and lifted him up in the air.

I've been in a few successful meetings before but no one has ever done that.

The context is they had just won the world cup.

What he did was wrong and awkward but it's still an enormous overreaction as a story in my opinion and people should be cautious of the legal fall out from things like this really, in my opinion

Can you help me find the moment where she lifts him up?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3AEgylgpiU

[Eric the Half a Bee]

It does feature though:

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/woke


https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dic...y/english/woke

Thanks for confirming your definition is one used by racists, sexists etc.

[JamesWales]

Thanks for confirming your definition is one used by racists, sexists etc.

What a bizarre (and very 'woke'!!) analysis from you!

Part of the criticism however is that 'wokeism' is racist, because it frequently divides society by that characteristic and defines it as the most important trait there is. You can read out and out racist things from both the woke and anti-woke. It's not a clear cut thing.

I understand that the word is complex and can be used by different people in different contexts to mean different things. Like most adjetives in the English language

[JamesWales]

Can you help me find the moment where she lifts him up?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3AEgylgpiU

It's not in that video but that is what the Spanish FA claimed. Here's the story.

https://news.sky.com/story/luis-rubi...final-12947722

[lardy]

It's not in that video but that is what the Spanish FA claimed. Here's the story.

https://news.sky.com/story/luis-rubi...final-12947722

Oh I see, it happened (it definitely happened, of course it definitely happened) but it just can't be seen in the video. Well I trust them.

[The Lone Gunman]

Oh I see, it happened (it definitely happened, of course it definitely happened) but it just can't be seen in the video. Well I trust them.

It happened (still image on 40 seconds).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orSex2l6EBo

[JamesWales]

Oh I see, it happened (it definitely happened, of course it definitely happened) but it just can't be seen in the video. Well I trust them.

The video you posted is 8 seconds long though isn't it. Clearly what the Spanish FA claim didn't happen within those 8 seconds.

This is the problem. If he has committed sexual assault then he can very likely claim to be a victim of assault.

Or everyone can admit that sometimes awkward exchanges exist between people esp in moments of heightened passion etc.

What he did was wrong, but it's socially wrong in my opinion. This isn't a case of sexual assault, which is something that to me is a very serious offence that should carry hefty prison sentences. Is that really what people want for any kiss on the lips without verbal or written consent?

[Hilts]

The video you posted is 8 seconds long though isn't it. Clearly what the Spanish FA claim didn't happen within those 8 seconds.

This is the problem. If he has committed sexual assault then he can very likely claim to be a victim of assault.

Or everyone can admit that sometimes awkward exchanges exist between people esp in moments of heightened passion etc.

What he did was wrong, but it's socially wrong in my opinion. This isn't a case of sexual assault, which is something that to me is a very serious offence that should carry hefty prison sentences. Is that really what people want for any kiss on the lips without verbal or written consent?

What do you think should happen then if someone is held by the side of their heads and kissed on their lips against their will and the person felt violated and complained.?

If Id done this in the workplace id expect to be sacked.

The hysteria wouldnt be what it is if hed shown genuine remorse and resigned.

[JamesWales]

What do you think should happen then if someone is held by the side of their heads and kissed on their lips against their will and the person felt violated and complained.?

If Id done this in the workplace id expect to be sacked.

The hysteria wouldnt be what it is if hed shown genuine remorse and resigned.

I'd suggest it be dealt with internally and properly investigated to get both sides of the story and not become another part of a culture war, or automatically be presented as sexual assault etc.

[B. Oddie]

I’m currently in Thailand on holiday. I was talking with our neighbours, French & Dutch couples, both football fans and they’re completely oblivious to this and cannot comprehend the issue. I showed them the video, men and women and they were like, what’s the issue, it’s the Latin way!

Keys in the bowl?

[the other bob wilson]

What a bizarre (and very 'woke'!!) analysis from you!

Part of the criticism however is that 'wokeism' is racist, because it frequently divides society by that characteristic and defines it as the most important trait there is. You can read out and out racist things from both the woke and anti-woke. It's not a clear cut thing.

I understand that the word is complex and can be used by different people in different contexts to mean different things. Like most adjetives in the English language

Yeah, but your the bloke who thinks “gammon” is racist.

[Heathblue]

Ask yourself a question, would anyone on here think it acceptable to do that to a woman in the work place, or anywhere else for that matter? You wouldn't dare, right? He's behaved that way because he thinks it acceptable, because he thinks that he can do it, it's all about him and nothing about the Player who he kissed, it was a power grab, a way of dominating a moment that had **** all to do with him.

He should just walk, more than anything for me, it's insulting, like treating the player in question like a child. He's moved in on her success, her brilliance. It's not just a kiss.

This, there is no mitigation for his action.

[jon1959]

Ask yourself a question, would anyone on here think it acceptable to do that to a woman in the work place, or anywhere else for that matter? You wouldn't dare, right? He's behaved that way because he thinks it acceptable, because he thinks that he can do it, it's all about him and nothing about the Player who he kissed, it was a power grab, a way of dominating a moment that had **** all to do with him.

He should just walk, more than anything for me, it's insulting, like treating the player in question like a child. He's moved in on her success, her brilliance. It's not just a kiss.