Assisted dying

[Taunton Blue Genie]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-68954101

This is an issue that interests me and for several reasons I won't go into.

I think we all understand that the need to be protect the vulnerable from relatives who may want to coerce them for malevolent purposes but I don't think that everyone should be denied the the right to end their lives in some circumstances where they consider their condition to be very serious, intolerable, irreversible and permanent/worsening.
(From enquiries I have made, the process with Switzerland-based Dignitas takes several months and 'acceptance' is not guaranteed. It's also very costly).

Yes, a lot of safeguarding laws and regulations need to be put in place but there must be an alternative to suicide for those who are determined to end their lives when they choose (and some people whose physical or mental condition worsens considerably are the least able to commit suicide anyway).

I would be grateful if the religious contributors don't pile in with their views on this one as we have enough religious arguments on the message board already.

[Robin Friday's Ghost]

I'm unsure. I can see why someome would want to take this route. I'm not sure how many doctors would be willing to be involved though, however sympathetic they were to their patient's plight. It's not what they signed up for with their hippocratic oath.

[JamesWales]

I think TBG outlines the reasons why we need to be cautious. This cant be a quick decision, it will need sign off from different professionals and family members etc but ultimately I think it's something I support.

Life is miserable for many, who may live in constant pain with no or very low quality of life, whilst being aware of the impact on their loved ones.

I think it will be normalised in future and whilst that doesnt fill me with joy I think we have a right to live our lives how we wish and that includes our deaths

[Wales-Bales]

The goalposts are already starting to move in Canada.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

I think TBG outlines the reasons why we need to be cautious. This cant be a quick decision, it will need sign off from different professionals and family members etc but ultimately I think it's something I support.

Life is miserable for many, who may live in constant pain with no or very low quality of life, whilst being aware of the impact on their loved ones.

I think it will be normalised in future and whilst that doesnt fill me with joy I think we have a right to live our lives how we wish and that includes our deaths

I understand your comment about having the permission of family members but as we are adults, I don't agree. I would not want anyone in my family overriding my decision on sentimental grounds and when they are not living a life of pain and disability that I may have - and denying me autonomy in such matters. We may not even have much contact with our closest relatives and/or we may have little in common with the way they think or live their own lives.

(The above is a scenario purely for discussion and I am, thankfully, not in that situation myself - although it may happens one day. Who knows?).

[jon1959]

I am 100% in favour.

Dignity and control as far as possible.

Individual choice.

There have to be some safeguards - but not the sort that stop the majority from making this choice for themselves.

No interference from religious/faith cultists hiding behind the ‘ethics’ label.

[goats]

After what I’ve just gone through watching my mother slowly die for the last month, I would say it would be a good idea to be able to end any suffering sooner. It was horrendous….

[jeepster]

After what I’ve just gone through watching my mother slowly die for the last month, I would say it would be a good idea to be able to end any suffering sooner. It was horrendous….

What a horrible thing to have to go through,deepest sympathy to you and family.
I totally agree with you.

[Tuerto]

I understand your comment about having the permission of family members but as we are adults, I don't agree. I would not want anyone in my family overriding my decision on sentimental grounds and when they are not living a life of pain and disability that I may have - and denying me autonomy in such matters. We may not even have much contact with our closest relatives and/or we may have little in common with the way they think or live their own lives.

(The above is a scenario purely for discussion and I am, thankfully, not in that situation myself - although it may happens one day. Who knows?).

I can't see how a family member could veto the decision, it would sort of go against the whole process, probably the ultimate decision when it comes to personal autonomy. And the reality is that it would be bad for business. I'm sort of split on the subject, but if the person is of sound mind and there are the correct medical professionals involved in order to help make the best decision for the individual, then so be it. It is a personal choice, but it's also difficult for family members who hold onto hope and who might want that person to be about in whatever guise. And that isn't selfish, they probably understand the severity of the situation but accepting a decision like this would stir all kinds of emotions. Very difficult.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

After what I’ve just gone through watching my mother slowly die for the last month, I would say it would be a good idea to be able to end any suffering sooner. It was horrendous….

Yep it's grim

Take care

[JamesWales]

I understand your comment about having the permission of family members but as we are adults, I don't agree. I would not want anyone in my family overriding my decision on sentimental grounds and when they are not living a life of pain and disability that I may have - and denying me autonomy in such matters. We may not even have much contact with our closest relatives and/or we may have little in common with the way they think or live their own lives.

(The above is a scenario purely for discussion and I am, thankfully, not in that situation myself - although it may happens one day. Who knows?).

You are right TBG, and I agree with you. "Sign off" isn't the right word, and I certainly don't think all family members should. I just think it is a process that ideally should be done in conjunction with family members so they understand and ultimately hopefully support the process too.

[Gofer Blue]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-68954101

I would be grateful if the religious contributors don't pile in with their views on this one as we have enough religious arguments on the message board already.

Writing as one of the "religious contributors" on this MB, you might be surprised by my take on this subject.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Writing as one of the "religious contributors" on this MB, you might be surprised by my take on this subject.

Pray tell, old fruit.

[Gofer Blue]

Pray tell, old fruit.

Well, firstly I am a fully paid up member of Dignity in Dying and have been for some time before it became very popular following the entrance of Esther Rantzen into the debate.

Much is made of palliative care for the dying and this can be very good. However it is a post code lottery situation and not everyone has access to it. Also it is almost unbelievable that this sector relies heavily on charity to carry out its work. Even when it is available, not everyone has good pain control and can suffer greatly towards the end of life.

IMO it is very easy for some people to take an "ivory tower" or moral highground approach to this subject. It is very different if you have a loved one who is terminally ill and is howling in pain and is begging you to end his/her life.

Moreover, and this is obviously highly controversial, I think assisted dying should be extended to include those who are suffering from a long term degenerative condition such as MS, MND or Parkinsons and have no wish to continue to live, or should I say rather just exist, under such conditions. I stress that this in no way should be taken to mean I am suggesting the euthanasia of that person - the person concerned must be compos mentis and should be able to record their wishes both in writing and orally.

I have relatively recently come to this conclusion as a result of regularly visiting a friend who is suffering from Parkinsons and has done for over 3 years. It is very degrading for him (I won't go into details about bodily functions etc.) and so far he is fully aware of his condition and has frequently said to me that he doesn't want to "go on". It is taking a terrible toll on his wife who is racked with guilt because she is no longer able to take care of him at home and he is in a nursing home surrounded by folk who are mostly ga-ga. It is a mere existence, not a life.

I have some Christian friends that are horrified by my stance and others who agree with me. There is nothing in the Bible about assisted dying, so if ever I had to make that choice for myself I would do it, and throw myself at the mercy of God. Dignity in Dying produce a template which can be used to record your instructions and I am in the process of reading through the info before writing down my own wishes.

I think it is important to discuss this matter with close family in advance so they know where you are coming from. In my case I am a pretty healthy 77 year old at the moment but I am only too aware that I am at the age where anything could happen at any time. In my experience 80 seems to be a turning point for many people, when the quality of life starts to take a sharp downturn.

[jon1959]

Well, firstly I am a fully paid up member of Dignity in Dying and have been for some time before it became very popular following the entrance of Esther Rantzen into the debate.

Much is made of palliative care for the dying and this can be very good. However it is a post code lottery situation and not everyone has access to it. Also it is almost unbelievable that this sector relies heavily on charity to carry out its work. Even when it is available, not everyone has good pain control and can suffer greatly towards the end of life.

IMO it is very easy for some people to take an "ivory tower" or moral highground approach to this subject. It is very different if you have a loved one who is terminally ill and is howling in pain and is begging you to end his/her life.

Moreover, and this is obviously highly controversial, I think assisted dying should be extended to include those who are suffering from a long term degenerative condition such as MS, MND or Parkinsons and have no wish to continue to live, or should I say rather just exist, under such conditions. I stress that this in no way should be taken to mean I am suggesting the euthanasia of that person - the person concerned must be compos mentis and should be able to record their wishes both in writing and orally.

I have relatively recently come to this conclusion as a result of regularly visiting a friend who is suffering from Parkinsons and has done for over 3 years. It is very degrading for him (I won't go into details about bodily functions etc.) and so far he is fully aware of his condition and has frequently said to me that he doesn't want to "go on". It is taking a terrible toll on his wife who is racked with guilt because she is no longer able to take care of him at home and he is in a nursing home surrounded by folk who are mostly ga-ga. It is a mere existence, not a life.

I have some Christian friends that are horrified by my stance and others who agree with me. There is nothing in the Bible about assisted dying, so if ever I had to make that choice for myself I would do it, and throw myself at the mercy of God. Dignity in Dying produce a template which can be used to record your instructions and I am in the process of reading through the info before writing down my own wishes.

I think it is important to discuss this matter with close family in advance so they know where you are coming from. In my case I am a pretty healthy 77 year old at the moment but I am only too aware that I am at the age where anything could happen at any time. In my experience 80 seems to be a turning point for many people, when the quality of life starts to take a sharp downturn.

Good post. Very well argued.

[JamesWales]

Good post. Very well argued.

I agree. Thanks for posting it

[Gofer Blue]

Good post. Very well argued.

Thank you.

As you can probably tell it's something that I am passionate about. Whilst I would never pressurise someone else into considering assisted dying, it's something that I would want for myself, if, God forbid, that I should ever need it. Meanwhile praying that I'll go to sleep one night and not get up in the morning! Being confined in a nursing home and being kept alive for no purpose for the rest of my life would be a living hell.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Thank you.

As you can probably tell it's something that I am passionate about. Whilst I would never pressurise someone else into considering assisted dying, it's something that I would want for myself, if, God forbid, that I should ever need it. Meanwhile praying that I'll go to sleep one night and not get up in the morning! Being confined in a nursing home and being kept alive for no purpose for the rest of my life would be a living hell.

Not wanting to get embroiled in another discussion about religion, I won't mention that it seems curious as to how one person's prayers would be answered in those circumstances and another person's ignored. However, let's move on

[Gofer Blue]

Not wanting to get embroiled in another discussion about religion, I won't mention that it seems curious as to how one person's prayers would be answered in those circumstances and another person's ignored. However, let's move on

I am a Baptist so I have a special hot line.

[truthpaste]

Not wanting to get embroiled in another discussion about religion, I won't mention that it seems curious as to how one person's prayers would be answered in those circumstances and another person's ignored. However, let's move on

All prayer is answered, but only the fool thinks he can always over-rule God's WILL, with all of his/ her requests.

[Robin Friday's Ghost]

Not wanting to get embroiled in another discussion about religion, I won't mention that it seems curious as to how one person's prayers would be answered in those circumstances and another person's ignored. However, let's move on

I remember a headline in the satirical online newspaper, The Onion "God answers little girl's prayers - 'No' says god" 😂

[truthpaste]

I remember a headline in the satirical online newspaper, The Onion "God answers little girl's prayers - 'No' says god" ��

I've just found that story and it's obviously constructed for the benefit of readers who would rather God didn't exist.

Many scientific studies have been conducted re Prayer over the years, this is one such example:-

In 1988, the third study, published in the Southern Medical Journal, yielded strikingly positive results, at least in some measures of patient outcomes (although not overall). Dr. Randolph Byrd, a cardiologist, oversaw a double-blind study of intercessory prayer in which 393 coronary-care-unit (CCU) patients agreed to participate. “Born-again” intercessors were given a prayer script to guide prayers, and each intercessor was given an assigned patient's first name, diagnosis, and general condition. Intercessors prayed for the quick recovery, prevention of complications and death, and any other areas that they felt might be useful to their assigned patients. “No one—not patients, staff, or Byrd—knew who was being prayed for and who wasn't. Byrd found that patients who were the subjects of prayer … needed fewer antibiotics, experienced a lower percentage of congestive heart failure, and were less likely to develop pneumonia. [After analyzing the data, Byrd] concluded that ‘intercessory prayer to the Judeo-Christian God has a beneficial therapeutic effect in patients admitted to the CCU.’”

Article:NLM provides access to scientific literature.

[Robin Friday's Ghost]

I've just found that story and it's obviously constructed for the benefit of readers who would rather God didn't exist.

Many scientific studies have been conducted re Prayer over the years, this is one such example:-

In 1988, the third study, published in the Southern Medical Journal, yielded strikingly positive results, at least in some measures of patient outcomes (although not overall). Dr. Randolph Byrd, a cardiologist, oversaw a double-blind study of intercessory prayer in which 393 coronary-care-unit (CCU) patients agreed to participate. “Born-again” intercessors were given a prayer script to guide prayers, and each intercessor was given an assigned patient's first name, diagnosis, and general condition. Intercessors prayed for the quick recovery, prevention of complications and death, and any other areas that they felt might be useful to their assigned patients. “No one—not patients, staff, or Byrd—knew who was being prayed for and who wasn't. Byrd found that patients who were the subjects of prayer … needed fewer antibiotics, experienced a lower percentage of congestive heart failure, and were less likely to develop pneumonia. [After analyzing the data, Byrd] concluded that ‘intercessory prayer to the Judeo-Christian God has a beneficial therapeutic effect in patients admitted to the CCU.’”

Article:NLM provides access to scientific literature.

This study shows that prayers have what is effectively a placebo effect. It did not claim that prayers worked in the sense you imply. Nor could it of course because praying to a non-existent entity is never likely to succeed.

[truthpaste]

This study shows that prayers have what is effectively a placebo effect. It did not claim that prayers worked in the sense you imply. Nor could it of course because praying to a non-existent entity is never likely to succeed.

When did I imply anything in the above post?

[Robin Friday's Ghost]

When did I imply anything in the above post?

Everything you write has the implication that god exists. You don't really have much else to offer.