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I agree with much of this, although not the last section, but it's all a matter of personal opinion.Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
Israel has gone far too far and is losing its allies but they are dealing with an enemy intent on seeing their destruction that then hides amongst civilians. Their response is either to do nothing or to see death. Had Egypt opened their doors to allow refugees in? Where's the criticism there? In my opinion their response goes far too far, the death of innocents is always absolutely appalling, but I think we would have made more progress if from day one across the west people had made their revulsion to groups like Hamas at least equal to their revulsion of Israel. War is always absolute hell. Israel would argue they are fighting for their very existence and to prevent a second holocaust. Do I agree with that? Not really, but I can tilt my head 45 degrees and see how they may.
As it is, the protests and general language we see here has got us absolutely no where. If anything its made Israel's response harder. I doubt Hamas care less and Israel clearly care little
One thing is for sure. People calling Israel Nazis on the internet isn't going to solve a single damned thing. As I said, if anything it probably emboldens them.
I've got nothing more to say on it really. I would agree with most of the points made, but not when you all get into a circle jerk over calling everyone Nazis. I'll opt out of that one.
Trying to defend your continual right wing defence of anything right wing....in this case Israel.....and "criticising " them instead of condemning them certainly does absolutely nothing for you and gets you absolutely nowhere
If Netanyahu was shot by his own people for the terrible road he has taken them down you would be all over this place like a rash
You have nothing more to say on it ?
Thank christ for that
Because everything you say is leaning heavily to the right , as always
What a relief 😌
I've not defended a single thing, but as usual you put things in people's mouths so you can reply with one of your default options which is an insult followed by a word like Nazi or Tory or Fascist or something else.
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
You were fibbing , you are back
Stop teasing Maggie
People are furious and outraged with Israel
You ? You are criticising them
I bet they are worried
You are right Sludge. They are Nazis and Hitlers.
Phew, problem solved.
Did you bother to read what Miriam Margolyes actually said in that quote?
Hitler set out to destroy the Jews. Despite the Holocaust he failed.
She believes the Israeli state after WW2 has destroyed the essence of Judaism (its values and traditions) by its actions in Israel/Palestine - mass murder, ethnic cleansing and apartheid. That is not making a direct comparison between the political views (or personalities) of Hitler and Netanyahu. It is just saying that the current Israeli state has betrayed the Jewish people and what she believes they stand for - or should stand for.
Although there are fascists in the Netanyahu government - BenGvir, Smotrich and others.
Margolyes is not a lone voice in world Judaism. The post war consensus is breaking down. Whilst opposition in Israel itself has become more muted, opposition to Zionism and the actions of the Israeli state has grown sharply in places like the USA (with a Jewish population of similar size to Israel). It is driven mainly by concern for humanity and human rights but also by despair that the values and traditions of Judaism are being trashed.
And of course, the biggest cheerleaders for the actions of Israel that Margolyes and others like her condemn are Christian Zionists (who in the USA, 'the west', parts of west Africa and on CCMB massively outnumber Jewish Zionists).
And on your first sentence - kids are not 'dying', kids are being killed (often deliberately). I know the western media rules are that Palestinians die, Israelis are killed; that Palestinian deaths are a concern, whilst Israeli deaths are an outrage, but there is no need to parrot that on here.
Of course I read it. It only took thirty seconds and why would I comment on it without reading it?
I disagree with her. That's a valid position to take. Most Jewish people would likely disagree with her. Many wouldn't, and that's all fine
I don't think you need to view everything through the prism of Zionism. In this case it's a nation responding to an attack. Personally I think pretty much every government in the middle east is guilty of horrific crimes against its own or other people. Labelling one of them as Nazis, especially when that state was created in response to nazi crimes is not helpful. It hasn't helped, it won't help, if anything it inflames it.
So no, I don't endorse what she says at all, but if you think it's helpful to make such statements then you are free to do so, but it won't save a single damned life.
If you read the quote from Margolyes you didn't respond to it. You just abused her and then accused her of saying something she didn't.
'The prism of Zionism' is a very useful way of understanding Israel and its backers. Zionism is the political ideology of the Israeli state - the one that leads to ethnic cleansing, apartheid and colonial expansion. It is an ideology shared by many 'western' leaders as well as many evangelical Christians. It includes Mike Pompeo and Mike Pence from the Trump administration, Keir Starmer, Robert Jenrick, Suella Braverman and large parts of the US Republican Party and other leading 'western' politicians.
Who labelled the Israeli government or state as Nazis? I didn't (I said there are fascists in the government not that the government is fascist - not that it makes any difference to the dead kids in Gaza) and I have read back the last few pages of this thread and I can't see anyone else did. You invented that to have a straw man target you could attack.
Well she says (in relation to Israel) "it seems as if Hitler has won". Now given that since 1942 at least Hitlers policy was the annihilation of the race not it's resettlement, I think we can conflude that had Hitler won then a strong Israel wouldn't exist. Ergo, I interpret her quote there as "nudge nudge wink wink, Israel are Nazis". In answer to your question "who labelled the Israeli state as Nazis?" Btw, it was done on Page 1 of this thread. Not only when the blood of Oct 7th wasn't dry, it was still being shed.
I think at this point though it is probably worth us confirming what we are actually debating here. If you think it's reasonable that people HAVE to agree with her quote, and if not then they support the killing of children, then we have no where to go with it.
However, if you want to put some specific questions to me then maybe we can see where we are, as I don't doubt for one second that everyone wants to see an end to bloodshed.
No - I don't think 'people HAVE to agree with her quote. Many or most won't. But she is clearly talking about the destruction by Israel of Jewish values as she sees them - not the bizarre ('nudge nudge wink wink') interpretation you have put on her words.
In what version of reality could anyone (critic or supporter) think or claim that 'the annihilation of the (Jewish) race' (to use your words) has happened to give the ghost of Hitler a victory? It is a complete nonsense of an argument, and if put forward as a live threat not a reality, it would only come from those with the complete opposite viewpoint to that of Miriam Margolyes - from those who endorse all the actions of Israel in Gaza!
I did check back to page 1 and you are right that NYCBlue called Israel a Nazi state. I disagree with him. But you were not referring to page 1 with your deflection; you were talking about the last few pages since I posted the Margolyes quote. No one who has contributed to this particular strand of the discussion has said what you claim.
But I do think thats what she is saying. We all know that many people have made this lazy and inaccurate analysis and at the very least she should use less clumsy language. If she really is saying that it's as if Hitler won, either shes saying Israel are acting like him (ie his legacy lives on) or that he has successfully reduced a Jewish state to barbarism. But he never wanted that. The idea of a strong nuclear armed Israel would have appalled her. So that's why I interpret her statement as I did, and many others would too.
Anyway, it's an interesting discussion, albeit about a particularly small part of a much wider debate, about which I don't doubt we agree on the end goal (a two state solution). It's about how you get there.
It's Friday evening now Jon, I've given it my best shot and no doubt the debate will continue. For now I wish you a lovely evening.
Last note - I seem to have misgendered Adolf at the tail end of the first paragraph. A serious offence for which I can only apologise.
On Monday, around 50 settlers attacked Aqraba near Nablus, killing Mohammed Bani Jame, 21, and Abdulrahman Bani Fadel, 30. During the rampages, roads were blocked, 60 homes and businesses and more than 100 cars were torched, and hundreds of sheep were killed or stolen, according to first responders and rights groups.
In al-Mughayyir, a fire engine that came to extinguish the blazes on Saturday was also attacked, causing the firefighters to flee. The fire engine was later set alight. Video taken by journalist Mohammed Turkman in al-Mughayyir shows Israel Defense Forces (IDF) soldiers on foot, as well as armoured patrol vehicles, doing nothing to stop the attacks.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...on-the-rampage
Calls for the Met commissioner to resign cos a Jewish guy couldn't cross the road.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4n19j892neo
Israeli strikes on the southern Gaza city of Rafah overnight killed 13 people, including nine children, health officials have said.
The first strike killed a man, his wife and their three-year-old child, according to the nearby Kuwaiti hospital, which received the bodies.
The woman was pregnant and the doctors managed to save the baby, the Associated Press has cited the hospital as saying.
The second strike killed eight children and two women, all from the same family, according to hospital records.
An airstrike in Rafah the night before reportedly killed nine people, including six children.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/li...s-in-west-bank
Another case of the police being damned if they do or damned if they don't. Suppose this chap had had his way, was allowed to cross the road to confront the pro-Palestinian marchers and was immediately set upon for his trouble. Imagine the outcry because the police failed to defend him!
That is what just said to the Mrs.
Worth noting that the arrest of Tommy Robinson that was discussed at length here during the antisemitism rally came to a head today, as the dispersal order was ruled unlawful.
It is funny the way these protests have impacted on things in unexpected ways
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crim...-b1153321.html
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-protest-seder
Hundreds of Jewish anti-war demonstrators have been arrested during a Passover seder that doubled as a protest in New York, as they shut down a major thoroughfare to pray for a ceasefire and urge the Senate majority leader, Chuck Schumer, to end US military aid to Israel.
The 300 or so arrests took place on Tuesday night at Grand Army Plaza, on the doorstep of Schumer’s Brooklyn residence, where thousands of mostly Jewish New Yorkers gathered for the seder, a ritual that marked the second night of the holiday celebrated as a festival of freedom by Jews worldwide.
The seder came just before the US Senate resoundingly passed a military package that includes $26bn for Israel.
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...rk-gaza-israel
Zionism is a false idol that has taken the idea of the promised land and turned it into a deed of sale for a militaristic ethnostate
That’s a brilliant piece Jon. I missed that one so thanks for sharing 👍
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