40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

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I don't know why you always come out with this 'there is no hope and no solution' view Sludge. You do it all the time and with all sorts of issues - from anti-Tory electoral pacts to climate change to global conflicts. I don't understand why you are so pessimistic and defeatist. There is always hope.

Israel/Palestine is certainly one of the biggest and most difficult conflicts - over 75 years old and now more entrenched than ever - but the same things were said about South Africa and Ireland.

There is a will for peace amongst many Israeli Jews, Israeli Arabs and Palestinians from the occupied territories. As you said in your post there are brave, committed and non-sectarian people across the divide. That is positive. There also has to be leadership within the Israeli state and from the Palestinian side - not an endless cycle of oppression, rage, provocation and reaction. There is little sign of that at the moment - but even a corrupt thug like Netanyahu could be drawn into a new peace process if he thought it was inevitable or in his own best interests (not so many of his far right, racist, government partners) as happened with South Africa, and even vilified and isolated Hamas has leading members who have made back channel contacts with the Israelis to begin a new peace process as recently as 2018.

I have no idea where a new process will begin - beyond Egypt and Qatar trying to create a short-term truce. Most of the world (including the UN, EU and other regional organisations) claim to support a two state solution, whilst standing by while that option has been dismantled by creeping annexation over the past 20 odd years. Israel gets a diplomatic, economic and military free pass whatever it does in defiance of international law and conventions. Hamas, a product of the occupation, poses as the defender of Palestinians when no one else gives a toss - but ends up using civilians as pawns in a desperate high-stakes game. Yet there is opposition to the current Israeli government in Israel and there is a new generation of Palestinian activists who reject both Hamas (violent Islamists) and the Palestinian Authority (who make big statements but act like the puny agents of the Israeli state on the West Bank - like a Vichy regime).

It won't be easy and it won't be quick but I believe there are enough elements of a solution out there for a settlement to emerge. Not a biblical Jewish supremacist apartheid state that has annexed the West Bank and Gaza and expelled the remaining indigenous people. Not the obliteration of an Israeli state that has existed and created its own roots and history over 75 years. But a compromise that most can live with. Ideally it would be a single democratic state with equal rights for all citizens - but more likely a new partition (creating a viable Palestinian state) where there would be another round of losers (land and citizenship) but a long term internationally guaranteed deal that can be established and protected over the next three generations - with some joint institutions (as in Ireland) and a reconciliation process once the time is right (as in South Africa).

I wish I shared your optimism

I think you are hoping for a settlement and I share that hope

But I think in 200 years they will still be at each other

Of course it's not every Arab and every Jew but its more than enough

" we are fighting animals and we have to act accordingly "

That's an Israeli government spokesman , its clear the whole of the gaza strip is seen as the enemy

As I said , I don't share your optimism

[pipster]

Having just watched Hamas release their 4k hi definition camera footage of them executing people - they are effectively now ISIS.

I have just seen the Pro Palestine march outside the Labour party conference today. Not affilliated to Labour but the 'activists' on that march looked the usual rent a mob crowd etc. After what just happened on Saturday - you would think they'd call it off. Interesting interview from Margaret Hodge on LBC today
"Today is not a good day for anti semitism"

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Israel's Defence Minister orders "complete siege" of Gaza Strip: "No electricity, no food, no fuel"

Two million people live in Gaza, half are children. What an awful, awful situation.

The idea of self defence is being supported when in reality this will be a complete invasion and slaughter

The international peace makers should be in there but that's never going to happen

[ninian opinian]

Having just watched Hamas release their 4k hi definition camera footage of them executing people - they are effectively now ISIS.

I have just seen the Pro Palestine march outside the Labour party conference today. Not affilliated to Labour but the 'activists' on that march looked the usual rent a mob crowd etc. After what just happened on Saturday - you would think they'd call it off. Interesting interview from Margaret Hodge on LBC today
"Today is not a good day for anti semitism"

If the atrocities had happened last week then they would have been demonstrating outside the Tory conference too. You are conflating antisemitism with support for the Palestinian people. It’s not the same thing.

[ninian opinian]

The human cost for 2008 to 2023. Palestinian deaths 6407, Israeli deaths 308. At least 15,560 Palestinian and 6,308 Israelis were injured. Does not include the latest atrocities.

Each one a human being, a mother a father, a brother a sister. Absolutely heartbreaking for both sides.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

The human cost for 2008 to 2023. Palestinian deaths 6407, Israeli deaths 308. At least 15,560 Palestinian and 6,308 Israelis were injured. Does not include the latest atrocities.

Each one a human being, a mother a father, a brother a sister. Absolutely heartbreaking for both sides.

Absolutely

There was a funeral of a young Israeli soldier from London who had gone over to Israel at 18 and was killed on Saturday

The funeral was halted because of threats of incoming missiles

What a complete waste of a young life and there will be funerals on the west bank today too

[jon1959]

The human cost for 2008 to 2023. Palestinian deaths 6407, Israeli deaths 308. At least 15,560 Palestinian and 6,308 Israelis were injured. Does not include the latest atrocities.

Each one a human being, a mother a father, a brother a sister. Absolutely heartbreaking for both sides.

Well said.

[jon1959]

I wish I shared your optimism

I think you are hoping for a settlement and I share that hope

But I think in 200 years they will still be at each other

Of course it's not every Arab and every Jew but its more than enough

" we are fighting animals and we have to act accordingly "

That's an Israeli government spokesman , its clear the whole of the gaza strip is seen as the enemy

As I said , I don't share your optimism

I have very little short term optimism. It is going to get worse before it gets better. But long term we all have the ability to do a little to change things for the better. Support what promotes peace and justice and oppose the opposite. There is always change and always choices.

I hope and believe that courage and political will and a new generation of activists in Israel, the occupied territories, the USA and parts of the Islamic world will help to shape a route out of this open sore of a conflict. There are templates to follow.

It will help too if the international power brokers drop their hypocrisy and also commit to 'peace and justice'.

[JamesWales]

I have very little short term optimism. It is going to get worse before it gets better. But long term we all have the ability to do a little to change things for the better. Support what promotes peace and justice and oppose the opposite. There is always change and always choices.

I hope and believe that courage and political will and a new generation of activists in Israel, the occupied territories, the USA and parts of the Islamic world will help to shape a route out of this open sore of a conflict. There are templates to follow.

It will help too if the international power brokers drop their hypocrisy and also commit to 'peace and justice'.

In a practical sense Jon, what would be your vision of that on the ground in terms of West Bank, Gaza Strip etc? Ie, what do you think the middle ground that could be sought is?

[JamesWales]

Must say this is very unsavoury.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...Palestine.html

[Jordi Culé]

Must say this is very unsavoury.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...Palestine.html

It's also brain fuucking dead when they see how the Israeli state will retaliate against Hamas and it'll be Palestinian civilians dying in their hundreds.

No empathy, no humanity, no compassion, just hate.

[Eric Cartman]

Absolutely

There was a funeral of a young Israeli soldier from London who had gone over to Israel at 18 and was killed on Saturday

The funeral was halted because of threats of incoming missiles

What a complete waste of a young life and there will be funerals on the west bank today too

This is what pisses me off about the 'defend your country' bullshit that we hear from cozy brits in response to any conflict and judging people who leave rather than staying to add themselves to the pile of bodies.

What a ****ing waste on both sides.

[pipster]

If the atrocities had happened last week then they would have been demonstrating outside the Tory conference too. You are conflating antisemitism with support for the Palestinian people. It’s not the same thing.

Have you ever seen any pro palestine demos at a tory party conference or even a lib dem conference? - the most you would get is the blue rinse brigade demanding more toilets. Labour conferences tend to attract the anti Israel pro Palestine crowd.

[Eric Cartman]

It's also brain fuucking dead when they see how the Israeli state will retaliate against Hamas and it'll be Palestinian civilians dying in their hundreds.

No empathy, no humanity, no compassion, just hate.

People reach a simple solution to a difficult problem all the time. It's easier to pick a side and say Israel are *****, Hamas are terrorists, Palestinians who vote for Hamas deserve it, Israelis who vote for Netanyahu deserve it etc. It just makes me realise how comfortable we are and how we probably should not try to have much of an opinion. If I had family in Israel or Gaza, I would almost certainly hate the other side.

What we absolutely do need to avoid though is this 'UK political class support for Israel defending itself' turning into the 'UK political class support for Israel doing whatever the **** it wants in retaliation', there needs to be a line. I am starting to think that line might already have been crossed with shutting off food/water (there could be some strategic argument made for cutting off power/fuel I suppose) unless this is temporary.

[Jordi Culé]

People reach a simple solution to a difficult problem all the time. It's easier to pick a side and say Israel are *****, Hamas are terrorists, Palestinians who vote for Hamas deserve it, Israelis who vote for Netanyahu deserve it etc. It just makes me realise how comfortable we are and how we probably should not try to have much of an opinion. If I had family in Israel or Gaza, I would almost certainly hate the other side.

What we absolutely do need to avoid though is this 'UK political class support for Israel defending itself' turning into the 'UK political class support for Israel doing whatever the **** it wants in retaliation', there needs to be a line. I am starting to think that line might already have been crossed with shutting off food/water (there could be some strategic argument made for cutting off power/fuel I suppose) unless this is temporary.

Civilians from both sides have and will now suffer due to political and nationalist ideologies.

It's a mess. It has been all my lifetime and I don't see it being resolved by the time I pop my cloggs. Some of the stories and imagery are horrific from Israel and Gaza. Why those who enjoy family life in a country far removed from the actual trouble are just devoid of any humanity.

Netanyahu is a ****ing war criminal as is Hamas.

Anyone celebrating or supporting either of the gaggle of cuunts is a cuunt too.

My overly simplistic view on it.

[pipster]

It wont end until one side wins and the other one loses in that region. Someone said a line has been drawn re shut down of power, food etc. I think that's right. A line has been drawn - Hamas started a war with Israel - it now has 2 options - fight or back down. We know they wont back down and neither will Israel. So Hamas need to either start an evacuation plan or prepare to fight. Eitherway the Gaza strip will flattened over the next few weeks, unless something remarkable happens.

[ninian opinian]

Have you ever seen any pro palestine demos at a tory party conference or even a lib dem conference? - the most you would get is the blue rinse brigade demanding more toilets. Labour conferences tend to attract the anti Israel pro Palestine crowd.

Stop making these posts to score political points. Demonstrations happen everywhere. It’s an absolute shit show with innocent people being killed.

[chrisp_1927]

Richard Hecht is the colonel and spokesman of the Israeli Army

He's originally from Glasgow and like a lot of the settlers in Israel is so clearly entrenched in his view that he and his side are right and the Palestinians are wrong

He was on the news talking about defeating the enemy what an absolute delusion

The young man from London who has died fighting for the Israeli army is entitled to do what he wants with his life which sadly has now ended but instead of living as a young man with friends from all backgrounds his faith or religion or whatever it is has propelled him over to a land to fight people he has learned to hate .....his family said he was a good boy but he's taken free will at the age of 20 to fight for a land and its people based upon what he's learned about at Jewish school

And there are obviously young Palestinians who will be on the opposite side and involved in acts of violence despite being in reality just kids

There are huge communities of secular Jews and Arabs living together in Israel , Tel Aviv was until recently a fairly chilled out place , given its history but when in countries faraway from Israel and Palestine young people are being fed and educated by people on both sides who hate and live in the past then it's the viscous circle of tit for tat

There's absolutely no chance of this conflict ever being resolved I am afraid

No chance

Tel Aviv still is to be fair, as is much of the heavily populated gush Dan conurbation it sits in. The loons tend to be in the settlements and Jerusalem. I do think there tends to be one major difference between the Tel Aviv type Israeli liberals and certain other progressives around the world though, that's that the Israeli progressives realise that the actions of the Israeli right are wrong and cause a lot of hatred and a lot of the problems, BUT, also that many in the countries around hate them purely for being Jews, and that if Israel retreats to the pre 1967 borders those people will still hate them just for being Jews. Too many so called progressives in the rest of the world seem to be able to see what Israel does wrong, but never want to challenge the attitudes towards Israel/Jews.

I'm all for a 2 state solution, it's the only choice surely. But I don't think for a minute it would stop attacks from the likes of Hamas

[Dorcus]

It wont end until one side wins and the other one loses in that region. Someone said a line has been drawn re shut down of power, food etc. I think that's right. A line has been drawn - Hamas started a war with Israel - it now has 2 options - fight or back down. We know they wont back down and neither will Israel. So Hamas need to either start an evacuation plan or prepare to fight. Eitherway the Gaza strip will flattened over the next few weeks, unless something remarkable happens.

Neither side will back down: the only inevitability is continuing mass bloodshed.

[chrisp_1927]

Civilians from both sides have and will now suffer due to political and nationalist ideologies.

It's a mess. It has been all my lifetime and I don't see it being resolved by the time I pop my cloggs. Some of the stories and imagery are horrific from Israel and Gaza. Why those who enjoy family life in a country far removed from the actual trouble are just devoid of any humanity.

Netanyahu is a ****ing war criminal as is Hamas.

Anyone celebrating or supporting either of the gaggle of cuunts is a cuunt too.

My overly simplistic view on it.

You say overly simplistic. Personally I think you're spot on.

[chrisp_1927]

I don't know why you always come out with this 'there is no hope and no solution' view Sludge. You do it all the time and with all sorts of issues - from anti-Tory electoral pacts to climate change to global conflicts. I don't understand why you are so pessimistic and defeatist. There is always hope.

Israel/Palestine is certainly one of the biggest and most difficult conflicts - over 75 years old and now more entrenched than ever - but the same things were said about South Africa and Ireland.

There is a will for peace amongst many Israeli Jews, Israeli Arabs and Palestinians from the occupied territories. As you said in your post there are brave, committed and non-sectarian people across the divide. That is positive. There also has to be leadership within the Israeli state and from the Palestinian side - not an endless cycle of oppression, rage, provocation and reaction. There is little sign of that at the moment - but even a corrupt thug like Netanyahu could be drawn into a new peace process if he thought it was inevitable or in his own best interests (not so many of his far right, racist, government partners) as happened with South Africa, and even vilified and isolated Hamas has leading members who have made back channel contacts with the Israelis to begin a new peace process as recently as 2018.

I have no idea where a new process will begin - beyond Egypt and Qatar trying to create a short-term truce. Most of the world (including the UN, EU and other regional organisations) claim to support a two state solution, whilst standing by while that option has been dismantled by creeping annexation over the past 20 odd years. Israel gets a diplomatic, economic and military free pass whatever it does in defiance of international law and conventions. Hamas, a product of the occupation, poses as the defender of Palestinians when no one else gives a toss - but ends up using civilians as pawns in a desperate high-stakes game. Yet there is opposition to the current Israeli government in Israel and there is a new generation of Palestinian activists who reject both Hamas (violent Islamists) and the Palestinian Authority (who make big statements but act like the puny agents of the Israeli state on the West Bank - like a Vichy regime).

It won't be easy and it won't be quick but I believe there are enough elements of a solution out there for a settlement to emerge. Not a biblical Jewish supremacist apartheid state that has annexed the West Bank and Gaza and expelled the remaining indigenous people. Not the obliteration of an Israeli state that has existed and created its own roots and history over 75 years. But a compromise that most can live with. Ideally it would be a single democratic state with equal rights for all citizens - but more likely a new partition (creating a viable Palestinian state) where there would be another round of losers (land and citizenship) but a long term internationally guaranteed deal that can be established and protected over the next three generations - with some joint institutions (as in Ireland) and a reconciliation process once the time is right (as in South Africa).

Interestingly the Oslo accords were 30 years ago now. A beginning of a roadmap for peace was set. Netanyahu killed it with vitriolic rhetoric that played a big part in the Israeli pm being killed by a Jewish extremist. Hamas killed it with suicide bombs.

But at the time it was signed the vast majority of both Israeli and Palestinian populations supported it. The sad thing is, those poisonous b*stards who ruined the peace process are still around on both sides. But as you say, there is definitely hope. If they managed to get close before there's no reason they can't get further in the future. I just hope it's sooner rather than later, before too many more have to die

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Tel Aviv still is to be fair, as is much of the heavily populated gush Dan conurbation it sits in. The loons tend to be in the settlements and Jerusalem. I do think there tends to be one major difference between the Tel Aviv type Israeli liberals and certain other progressives around the world though, that's that the Israeli progressives realise that the actions of the Israeli right are wrong and cause a lot of hatred and a lot of the problems, BUT, also that many in the countries around hate them purely for being Jews, and that if Israel retreats to the pre 1967 borders those people will still hate them just for being Jews. Too many so called progressives in the rest of the world seem to be able to see what Israel does wrong, but never want to challenge the attitudes towards Israel/Jews.

I'm all for a 2 state solution, it's the only choice surely. But I don't think for a minute it would stop attacks from the likes of Hamas

A friend went to tel aviv at the end of the summer

Liberal , Jews and Arabs and plenty of other cultures mixing , a big vibrant cosmopolitan city

What a mess it's all going to be now

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Interestingly the Oslo accords were 30 years ago now. A beginning of a roadmap for peace was set. Netanyahu killed it with vitriolic rhetoric that played a big part in the Israeli pm being killed by a Jewish extremist. Hamas killed it with suicide bombs.

But at the time it was signed the vast majority of both Israeli and Palestinian populations supported it. The sad thing is, those poisonous b*stards who ruined the peace process are still around on both sides. But as you say, there is definitely hope. If they managed to get close before there's no reason they can't get further in the future. I just hope it's sooner rather than later, before too many more have to die

I remember the Israeli pm funeral after his murder by the zionist and his wife turning herself away from Netanyahu as he went past her at the service as she refused to greet him

He's lucky she didn't smack him one , he had some front turning up to that

[chrisp_1927]

A friend went to tel aviv at the end of the summer

Liberal , Jews and Arabs and plenty of other cultures mixing , a big vibrant cosmopolitan city

What a mess it's all going to be now

It's one of my very favourite places, vibrant and cosmopolitan as you say. Also home to great universities and scientific research and a huge tech scene. A great advert for what happens when religion takes a back seat and enjoying life takes precedence.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

It's one of my very favourite places, vibrant and cosmopolitan as you say. Also home to great universities and scientific research and a huge tech scene. A great advert for what happens when religion takes a back seat and enjoying life takes precedence.

I didnt realise how big it is , it's not major European city size but over half a million and the metro area

Great climate , great food from all over the world

And right by the beach 🏖