"From the river to the sea" chant

[Dorcus]

Good one.

I'm glad the truth is starting to ram home; perhaps we'll make an upstanding citizen of you yet. I have hope!

[JamesWales]

You're not sure of my logic because you've been brainwashed from birth and people like you who are lucky enough to live in luxury have no moral repulsion against slaughter of the innocents because it doesn't impinge upon your fortunate lives. People like you live in a cocoon. However, nasty little chants from the fuzzy wuzzies imposes fear into your cosy little existence. Don't worry, you can always shut the lights out and forget all about it.

You no absolutely nothing about me, but I do note you dwell in gross stereotypes.

Probably why you fail to condemn people chanting antisemitic things at rallies in the UK that do nothing whatsoever to help achieve peace and damage the very cause you claim to support.

All you need to do is say..you know what..it's true..chanting anti Semitic tropes about wiping out a country probably isn't helpful. But you are so sectarian on this and every issue that you cannot do that. Last week you were defending the jihad chants. The week before you were saying left-wing authoritarianism is okay. Interesting character you are, but certainly not a fan of peace it seems.

[Dorcus]

You no absolutely nothing about me, but I do note you dwell in gross stereotypes.

Probably why you fail to condemn people chanting antisemitic things at rallies in the UK that do nothing whatsoever to help achieve peace and damage the very cause you claim to support.

All you need to do is say..you know what..it's true..chanting anti Semitic tropes about wiping out a country probably isn't helpful. But you are so sectarian on this and every issue that you cannot do that. Last week you were defending the jihad chants. The week before you were saying left-wing authoritarianism is okay. Interesting character you are, but certainly not a fan of peace it seems.

James you are on another planet. Forget anti -semitic chanting, we have innocent children and babies being slaughtered by Israeli terrorists. Before you start that is no anti -semitic description, many Jewish people are horrified by this murderous onslaught.

If you are so dim and/or bigoted to be more concerned by repressed people voicing their anger at their evil overlords rather than the genocide of innocent people then I can't see how anyone could have an intelligent discourse with you. You're obviously a troubled individual and if I were religious I'd pray for you.

[JamesWales]

James you are on another planet. Forget anti -semitic chanting, we have innocent children and babies being slaughtered by Israeli terrorists. Before you start that is no anti -semitic description, many Jewish people are horrified by this murderous onslaught.

If you are so dim and/or bigoted to be more concerned by repressed people voicing their anger at their evil overlords rather than the genocide of innocent people then I can't see how anyone could have an intelligent discourse with you. You're obviously a troubled individual and if I were religious I'd pray for you.

I think you are the dim one. Where did I say that chanting matters more than people dying? I didn't say that. The point is, antisemitic chanting will not solve the problem, it will only contribute to making it worse. It only adds to the conflict and undermines efforts at peace, emboldened Israel as they can point to such instances happening in many cities.

And that's why you shouldn't support it, but you can't bring yourself to say it, which I find very odd.

And by your logic..that something worse is always happening..you would tolerate all racist or xenophobic chanting. Is that your position? Or is it only in this scenario that it's okay?

[jon1959]

You no absolutely nothing about me, but I do note you dwell in gross stereotypes.

Probably why you fail to condemn people chanting antisemitic things at rallies in the UK that do nothing whatsoever to help achieve peace and damage the very cause you claim to support.

All you need to do is say..you know what..it's true..chanting anti Semitic tropes about wiping out a country probably isn't helpful. But you are so sectarian on this and every issue that you cannot do that. Last week you were defending the jihad chants. The week before you were saying left-wing authoritarianism is okay. Interesting character you are, but certainly not a fan of peace it seems.

Decided to escalate and double down have you?

The ‘river to the sea’ is not anti Semitic. It was originally a Zionist slogan (very popular with Old Testament bashing Christian Zionists) to illustrate their ethnic cleansing ambitions. It was appropriated by the Palestinians to describe their ambition for a free and democratic state (or states if you were persuaded by Oslo) that over turned the colonial occupation we know now.

You have decided to echo the propaganda of the oppressors and vilify their victims. Not a surprise.

Jewish protestors in London and New York against the bloodbath in Gaza had no problem chanting ‘From the river to the sea Palestine will be free’ because they know it is about creating a land which is free of oppression and can be a home to all. It is the defenders of apartheid and ethnic cleansing who call that anti Semitism.

[the other bob wilson]

So mass chanting, viewed as racist by many, and widely viewed as promoting a single Palestinian state is progressive and helps does it?

And yes, mass chanting like that on the streets of Britain is offensive IMO.

As racist and offensive as calling people gammon? You do love throwing the racism accusations around don’t you.

[Jordi Culé]

Despite your whataboutery Jordi, this thread is about a chant widely considered to be racist at worst or calling for the end of a nation at best that is entirely unconnected to finding a peaceful solution.
It doesn't help the peace cause one bit.

Why can't you say it isn't on?

My '"whataboutery" is pointing out both sides in this debate are using similar vocabulary. You don't seem to be offended by the Likud party use of it? Even though it could be construed they are putting their words into practice? Strangely, you've ignored what is actually taking place in Palestine/Israel to become all outraged about flip flops wearing lefties using a slogan in London as you don't think their actions are helpful to any peace process.

Fuuck me.

[pipster]

Well it depends on your perspective

People who want a free Palestine sing it in support of those in gaza

People who are anti Semitic......very different to being pro Palestine and sometimes sing it to intimidate people of Jewish origin

The press have jumped on the song as a reflection of the latter

But that's not a correct conclusion in many cases

Yes you are right - if you are an anti Semite - then your perspective is right and you will chant it.
Maybe as the ccmb international spokes person you could tell us why it's not a correct conclusion?

[Eric Cartman]

James rather than this clickbaity type 'some people think x is racist', why don't you explain why you think the chant is inherently racist/anti-semitic, the thread would go better then I think.

[Dorcus]

I think you are the dim one. Where did I say that chanting matters more than people dying? I didn't say that. The point is, antisemitic chanting will not solve the problem, it will only contribute to making it worse. It only adds to the conflict and undermines efforts at peace, emboldened Israel as they can point to such instances happening in many cities.

And that's why you shouldn't support it, but you can't bring yourself to say it, which I find very odd.

And by your logic..that something worse is always happening..you would tolerate all racist or xenophobic chanting. Is that your position? Or is it only in this scenario that it's okay?

One thing's for sure you obviously never studied logic. Did you study anything?

All that's happened in this thread is that you've shown yourself up to be bigoted, insecure and incapable of original thought.

If you are more bothered by chants than genocide then there's little hope for you.

[JamesWales]

One thing's for sure you obviously never studied logic. Did you study anything?

All that's happened in this thread is that you've shown yourself up to be bigoted, insecure and incapable of original thought.

If you are more bothered by chants than genocide then there's little hope for you.

It's would be harder to find more irony in a post on here if I spent a year searching for it!

[Dorcus]

It's would be harder to find more irony in a post on here if I spent a year searching for it!

So that's another thing you don't understand lol. You need a lot of education I think but in all fairness deep down I think you're an honest trier. Naiive but honest.

[JamesWales]

James rather than this clickbaity type 'some people think x is racist', why don't you explain why you think the chant is inherently racist/anti-semitic, the thread would go better then I think.

I think it's racist as it is interpreted by many Jews as wishing to see the end of the only Jewish state. And under hate crime legislation it is the victim who determines this.

I also think it's a deeply unhelpful chant, that aggravates the situation, takes peace further away and shows that for a minority of people, this isn't about peace or Palestine at all.

It doesn't really surprise me that the usual suspects are okay with it - the same people who seemed to support a certain ex party leader, surprise surprise!

The anti defamation league state here they consider it antisemitic

https://www.adl.org/resources/backgr...e-will-be-free

The American Jewish committee do too

https://www.ajc.org/translatehate/Fr...ver-to-the-Sea

Austria even banned a march based on it

https://www.reuters.com/world/from-r...st-2023-10-11/

Hate crimes rising enormously in the last week.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-67241374

How hard is it to march for peace without chanting a chant that many consider racist? Not that hard, is it?

[Jordi Culé]

I think it's racist as it is interpreted by many Jews as wishing to see the end of the only Jewish state. And under hate crime legislation it is the victim who determines this.

I also think it's a deeply unhelpful chant, that aggravates the situation, takes peace further away and shows that for a minority of people, this isn't about peace or Palestine at all.

It doesn't really surprise me that the usual suspects are okay with it - the same people who seemed to support a certain ex party leader, surprise surprise!

The anti defamation league state here they consider it antisemitic

https://www.adl.org/resources/backgr...e-will-be-free

The American Jewish committee do too

https://www.ajc.org/translatehate/Fr...ver-to-the-Sea

Austria even banned a march based on it

https://www.reuters.com/world/from-r...st-2023-10-11/

Hate crimes rising enormously in the last week.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-67241374

How hard is it to march for peace without chanting a chant that many consider racist? Not that hard, is it?

How did the Netherlands judiciary regard the chant/slogan?

Have you conveniently disregarded their ruling?

Differing interpretations to the same words I guess?

I guess you could call it nuance?

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Yes you are right - if you are an anti Semite - then your perspective is right and you will chant it.
Maybe as the ccmb international spokes person you could tell us why it's not a correct conclusion?

I
So the people who are not anti jew but chant it to display their support of a free Palestine?

That's most people ......what's your conclusion about them ?

Do you think they are anti Semitic?

You are down a dark alley here

You are on the same level of stupidity and right wing nonsense spouting as James Wales , he's taken a right beating on here and it's his ego that's making it worse for him

A middle class white boy outraged by songs being sung on a public demo and suggesting there will be no peace because of this song ?

It's pathetic

Hamas and the far right zionist nutcases are the problem

Stop the bombing ff sake .....along comes JW with the oh Israel has the right to defend its self you know !

I am outraged !

Send more missiles , repeat ad nauseum

[JamesWales]

How did the Netherlands judiciary regard the chant/slogan?

Have you conveniently disregarded their ruling?

Differing interpretations to the same words I guess?

I guess you could call it nuance?

So only some Jews find it racist then? Is that your basis for it being cool?

Inflames the situation, considered racist by some, so all good? No discomfort at all.

[JamesWales]

I
So the people who are not anti jew but chant it to display their support of a free Palestine?

That's most people ......what's your conclusion about them ?

Do you think they are anti Semitic?

You are down a dark alley here

You are on the same level of stupidity and right wing nonsense spouting as James Wales , he's taken a right beating on here and it's his ego that's making it worse for him

A middle class white boy outraged by songs being sung on a public demo and suggesting there will be no peace because of this song ?

It's pathetic

Hamas and the far right zionist nutcases are the problem

Stop the bombing ff sake .....along comes JW with the oh Israel has the right to defend its self you know !

I am outraged !

Send more missiles , repeat ad nauseum

I haven't taken a beating. I've consistently claimed this is an unhelpful song that is likely racist and at a time of rising antisemitism is not good to hear on the streets of Britain.

The usual apologists, some of whom last week couldn't even bring themselves to condemn the calls for jihad on our streets, are now incapable of seeing the issue with it.

How toxic do things need to be?!

There is calling for peace and there chants that many consider racist. Wtf would you pick the latter to celebrate?

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

I haven't taken a beating. I've consistently claimed this is an unhelpful song that is likely racist and at a time of rising antisemitism is not good to hear on the streets of Britain.

The usual apologists, some of whom last week couldn't even bring themselves to condemn the calls for jihad on our streets, are now incapable of seeing the issue with it.

How toxic do things need to be?!

There is calling for peace and there chants that many consider racist. Wtf would you pick the latter to celebrate?

I think you are full of fake outrage

It's pathetic

What have you achieved by saying on here you are outraged by a song that has been sung for generations by both Palestinians and Arabs ?

I am outraged by the time bombing of little kids

You are not doing anything about your virtue signalling

If there was a pro Israel march in London or Cardiff the chances of you joining it would be zero

You would be on here , sniffling and moaning

Talk TV is made for you

[Jordi Culé]

So only some Jews find it racist then? Is that your basis for it being cool?

Inflames the situation, considered racist by some, so all good? No discomfort at all.

You're trying to control the narrative again Jimbo, failing by the way.

So far you've recognised the words used by peace protestors as being anti semetic but not anti Arab when used by the party currently in government in Israel as their stated aim. In fairness, you do acknowledge the vocabulary of both groups being very similar but have managed to control your outrage towards the Likud Party/Israeli Government who are currently practicing what they preach in the form of bonbing the fuuck out of Gaza and its population, the majority who are civilians.

You are though, outraged by a number of lentil eating, lemon tea drinking flip flop wearers in London as they may cause trouble to any peace process and are obviously calling for the extermination of all Jewish people.

Also you're now conclusively (in your eyes) proving the words used by both Pro Palestinian and Pro Israeli groups are inflammatory and considered racist (you still haven't said they were for Pro Israeli groups though?). Your extensive research shows that Austria agrees with your sentiments, other facts presented show that not all countries agree with those sentiments.

You appear to be very intransigent about this matter which for me is surprising as you've regularly put it out on CCMB how you are able to interpret situations that those with much lower intelligence levels just cannot fathom. If I may dare suggest, you seem blinkered in relation to the topic which sort of nicely sums up the whole wider issue of Israel/Palestine at the moment and that includes both sides of the fence.

[Dorcus]

I think you are full of fake outrage

It's pathetic

What have you achieved by saying on here you are outraged by a song that has been sung for generations by both Palestinians and Arabs ?

I am outraged by the time bombing of little kids

You are not doing anything about your virtue signalling

If there was a pro Israel march in London or Cardiff the chances of you joining it would be zero

You would be on here , sniffling and moaning

Talk TV is made for you

Jimmy's taken an absolutely thrashing in this thread: No one agrees with him except for little Pipsqueak who always seems to pop up to lick Jim's entrails.

Jimmy cannot or more likely refuses to see he's wrong but of course being the faux "intellectual one" he resorts to belittle anyone else as "apologists" and extremists just because they disagree with him. Didn't he even try to decry people who happened to have supported the previous Labour leader because in Jim's book anyone who doesn't support his one-eyed view are heathens.

[JamesWales]

You're trying to control the narrative again Jimbo, failing by the way.

So far you've recognised the words used by peace protestors as being anti semetic but not anti Arab when used by the party currently in government in Israel as their stated aim. In fairness, you do acknowledge the vocabulary of both groups being very similar but have managed to control your outrage towards the Likud Party/Israeli Government who are currently practicing what they preach in the form of bonbing the fuuck out of Gaza and its population, the majority who are civilians.

You are though, outraged by a number of lentil eating, lemon tea drinking flip flop wearers in London as they may cause trouble to any peace process and are obviously calling for the extermination of all Jewish people.

Also you're now conclusively (in your eyes) proving the words used by both Pro Palestinian and Pro Israeli groups are inflammatory and considered racist (you still haven't said they were for Pro Israeli groups though?). Your extensive research shows that Austria agrees with your sentiments, other facts presented show that not all countries agree with those sentiments.

You appear to be very intransigent about this matter which for me is surprising as you've regularly put it out on CCMB how you are able to interpret situations that those with much lower intelligence levels just cannot fathom. If I may dare suggest, you seem blinkered in relation to the topic which sort of nicely sums up the whole wider issue of Israel/Palestine at the moment and that includes both sides of the fence.

I think the issue Jordi is that there has been a massive rise in antisemitism, little Jewish kids schools in London daubed in blood, some windows snashed, arrests for racism and mass chanting on the streets calling for something that many call racist.

I've never ever defended what Israel do. It's not me defending that, and there is another thread on that

The war itself is of course more abhorrent. But this kind of rhetoric as well as bringing racial discord to the UK and making some fear walking the streets is only likely to prolong that. It doesn't promote nor make the two state solution any easier.

I think this is about some pretty disturbing events and opinions latching onto a legitimate peace movement that helps absolutely no one and I think it should be called out for what it is, without turning a blind eye.

You were more angry about the Rubiales kiss than people chanting racist slogans on the street. Fancy that.

[JamesWales]

Jimmy's taken an absolutely thrashing in this thread: No one agrees with him except for little Pipsqueak who always seems to pop up to lick Jim's entrails.

Jimmy cannot or more likely refuses to see he's wrong but of course being the faux "intellectual one" he resorts to belittle anyone else as "apologists" and extremists just because they disagree with him. Didn't he even try to decry people who happened to have supported the previous Labour leader because in Jim's book anyone who doesn't support his one-eyed view are heathens.

Why don't you try to explain to us why in an period of conflict, rising gare crime on all sides but particularly towards Jews in the UK you are so happy to defend a chant that many would consider racist?

Aside from anything else it muddies the aims of the protests doesn't it?

No one disputes calling for peace or a free Palestine, but the song in question is considered racist by many. Do you really not care a jot about that? Your response is to defend it and personally attack the person pointing out it's not Okay.

Why is that?

[Dorcus]

Why don't you try to explain to us why in an period of conflict, rising gare crime on all sides but particularly towards Jews in the UK you are so happy to defend a chant that many would consider racist?

Aside from anything else it muddies the aims of the protests doesn't it?

No one disputes calling for peace or a free Palestine, but the song in question is considered racist by many. Do you really not care a jot about that? Your response is to defend it and personally attack the person pointing out it's not Okay.

Why is that?

James any so called personal attacks I make are only in response to your continual ad hominem sneers. Maybe you could consider conducting your debates more on a structured basis rather than resorting to risible personal slights. Just a bit of friendly advice, you might find more people take your arguments seriously if you avoid abusing people.

As for the main thrust of your argument I find any instance of anti-Jewish personal abuse, particularly against children, abhorrent and I would be happy to see any perpetrator collared by the police. On the other hand I think any protest against Zionism and the Israeli government is justified and only cynics and malcontents will try to conflate the two issues.

The "River to the Sea" chant is in my opinion firmly in the camp of Arab/Palestinian reaction to repression and the longing for a free homeland. Despite some Jews not liking it that doesn't mean it should be proscribed because it has been pointed out the true meaning of the chant is open to misinterpretation.

However my main point is that at this time I think all our energies should be directed at trying in some small way to get to a ceasefire quickly and stop the horrific daily carnage. I can't get over exercised about a mass call for freedom.

By the way you may have noticed I never use the term anti-Semitic and prefer anti-Jewish because the former is problematic in the sense that both Jews and Muslims in the main are, among other ethnic groups, Semites. I think it an unfortunate use of terminology.

[JamesWales]

James any so called personal attacks I make are only in response to your continual ad hominem sneers. Maybe you could consider conducting your debates more on a structured basis rather than resorting to risible personal slights. Just a bit of friendly advice, you might find more people take your arguments seriously if you avoid abusing people.

As for the main thrust of your argument I find any instance of anti-Jewish personal abuse, particularly against children, abhorrent and I would be happy to see any perpetrator collared by the police. On the other hand I think any protest against Zionism and the Israeli government is justified and only cynics and malcontents will try to conflate the two issues.

The "River to the Sea" chant is in my opinion firmly in the camp of Arab/Palestinian reaction to repression and the longing for a free homeland. Despite some Jews not liking it that doesn't mean it should be proscribed because it has been pointed out the true meaning of the chant is open to misinterpretation.

However my main point is that at this time I think all our energies should be directed at trying in some small way to get to a ceasefire quickly and stop the horrific daily carnage. I can't get over exercised about a mass call for freedom.

By the way you may have noticed I never use the term anti-Semitic and prefer anti-Jewish because the former is problematic in the sense that both Jews and Muslims in the main are, among other ethnic groups, Semites. I think it an unfortunate use of terminology.

Have you read what you've written to me in this thread?! All for....saying that chanting racist chants on the street is disturbing and unhelpful. Have a word with yourself.

[Dorcus]

Have you read what you've written to me in this thread?! All for....saying that chanting racist chants on the street is disturbing and unhelpful. Have a word with yourself.

Of course I read it. Did you think it was written by AI?

I dispute your description of racism. You don't get to be Judge, Jury and Executioner you know.