"From the river to the sea" chant

[JamesWales]

Some British Jews support a two state solution. Are their views to be sidelined?

Surely, without wishing to be controversial, wouldn't most Jews think the situation is tenuous in Israel and not unreasonable that the Palestinians would want their land back? I mean if the Jews were somehow evicted from Israel by some super powerful Arab military coup then do you think they'd take that lying down and just say the best side won?

I should imagine the overwhelming majority support a two state solution, don't they?

Yeah I think in most disputes over land, most reasonable people can understand the opposing argument even if they don't agree with it. It not hard to see the British and Irish claim over Northern Ireland for example, and you would have to be an idiot to not understand Palestine's claim on the land.

However, equally so you would have to be an idiot to not see Israel's claim, again, whether you agree with it is another thing.

The solution is a two-state solution or a war of annihilation. I know which I would prefer.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Yeah I mean you can personally not view it as such, that is of course fine, because we do all interpret things differently. I think most people chanting it don't know what it really means (or could mean) although some certainly do. I don't think we can be naive to some of the very ugly sides that are capable of exploiting what is a very legitimate protests that fundamentally call for peace.

But in a context of rising tensions it is the opinions of British Jews that I think count in relation to this song and many seem concerned by it. Here's a BBC article from today that cites it specifically.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67266475

In Paris we are seeing graffiti reminiscent of the 1930s accompanied by a similar message.

So on balance I just think its a very very dubious message that if nothing else is entirely unhelpful to the cause and I really hope we don't hear it again.

And before anyone pipes up saying that worse things happen..that's true, but we do live in Britain and seeing tensions inflamed more in here is not in our interest, any communities interest, nor the interests of people in Gaza.

You can ponce about with regard to these chants at demos and how it upsets you but you are making a fool out of yourself

Tonight on the news another huge explosion has killed hundreds of innocent Palestinians

You can talk about chanting and anti semitic behaviour as long as you want but here and now we live in 2023 not 1948

The bombing needs to stop now , everything else is going to have to take a back seat , you are playing schoolboy sixth form politics

[JamesWales]

You can ponce about with regard to these chants at demos and how it upsets you but you are making a fool out of yourself

Tonight on the news another huge explosion has killed hundreds of innocent Palestinians

You can talk about chanting and anti semitic behaviour as long as you want but here and now we live in 2023 not 1948

The bombing needs to stop now , everything else is going to have to take a back seat , you are playing schoolboy sixth form politics

For the 10th time, chants like that don't help bring about peace. If anything it's the opposite. And whilst you are right that bombing is of course far more important, I don't see what we gain by making Jews in Britain afraid to go about their daily lives.

Just like you can be mad about Kay Burley and also recognise the horror of people dying, so too others can object to widely viewed racist chants and also recognise the greater picture.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

For the 10th time, chants like that don't help bring about peace. If anything it's the opposite. And whilst you are right that bombing is of course far more important, I don't see what we gain by making Jews in Britain afraid to go about their daily lives.

Just like you can be mad about Kay Burley and also recognise the horror of people dying, so too others can object to widely viewed racist chants and also recognise the greater picture.

You have got more excuses than a master of excuses

You have 1 person , a fellow tory boy , support you on this thread that now runs for 6 pages

Anyone else would graciously retire

[JamesWales]

You have got more excuses than a master of excuses

You have 1 person , a fellow tory boy , support you on this thread that now runs for 6 pages

Anyone else would graciously retire

Thankfully there is a bigger world out there than half a dozen or so people on CCMB, and if you were following what was going on in the media in the last 48 hours or so then you would see that yours isn't a common position.

You may be cool with it, but anything making Jews in this country afraid doesn't help anything.

[jon1959]

For the 10th time, chants like that don't help bring about peace. If anything it's the opposite. And whilst you are right that bombing is of course far more important, I don't see what we gain by making Jews in Britain afraid to go about their daily lives.

Just like you can be mad about Kay Burley and also recognise the horror of people dying, so too others can object to widely viewed racist chants and also recognise the greater picture.

There are rising numbers of real anti Semitic incidents in the UK and across the world and there are rising numbers of Islamophobic incidents. We need to come together to confront those wherever possible.

But there are also invented anti Semitic incidents deliberately designed to raise fears in the Jewish community and to gag all supporters of the occupied Palestinian people. No wonder some Jewish people in the UK get anxious if the media, commentators and those self-selected representatives of their community shout that a slogan for peace and justice is anti Semitic. That despite the fact that large numbers of Jewish people were on the various demonstrations in support of Palestine over the past few weeks and joined in chanting the slogan!

It is clear from the context and the wide range of people joining in the chant that the spin put on it by the Israeli government and their international cheerleaders is false. The focus should be elsewhere, but to the extent that 'from the river to the sea' is a cause of distress to some people, it is those peddling that cynical nonsense that are the problem. You are part of that problem James.

And in response to an earlier come back from you - you have never been even handed in your denunciation of the chant - even though it has been used by Zionists (especially Christian Zionists) for decades to promote the idea of a biblical Israel with Palestinian arabs ethnically cleansed. Your focus has only been one way - to join in the attempts to silence the solidarity movement and the Palestinian resistance. Every form of non-violent action and every form of criticism of the actions and state ideology of Israel is labelled as anti Semitic.

Decades of rolling land grabs, murders by armed settlers (backed by the IDF), imprisonment without trial, daily humiliations and barriers to movement, and the physical dismantling of any possibility of a Two State Solution produces nothing but mild hand wringing in Europe and the USA, backed by UN vetos and massive injections of money and arms. That has not changed even with the creation of an extremist government that includes fascists, a government that makes overt racist statements about non-Jews in the occupied territories, Gaza and Israel, and as the scale of killings of Palestinians in the West Bank has reached new heights.

The victims of this feel abandoned and desperate. It is a powder keg that creates the conditions for the mass terrorist atrocities by Hamas. It also provides cover for Netanyahu and his allies to speed up their move to create a single Jewish Supremacist state 'from the river to the sea'. Demonstrators in London and New York calling for peace and justice in Israel/Palestine is not the problem here.

[Dorcus]

I should imagine the overwhelming majority support a two state solution, don't they?

Yeah I think in most disputes over land, most reasonable people can understand the opposing argument even if they don't agree with it. It not hard to see the British and Irish claim over Northern Ireland for example, and you would have to be an idiot to not understand Palestine's claim on the land.

However, equally so you would have to be an idiot to not see Israel's claim, again, whether you agree with it is another thing.

The solution is a two-state solution or a war of annihilation. I know which I would prefer.

At last we agree about something

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

There are rising numbers of real anti Semitic incidents in the UK and across the world and there are rising numbers of Islamophobic incidents. We need to come together to confront those wherever possible.

But there are also invented anti Semitic incidents deliberately designed to raise fears in the Jewish community and to gag all supporters of the occupied Palestinian people. No wonder some Jewish people in the UK get anxious if the media, commentators and those self-selected representatives of their community shout that a slogan for peace and justice is anti Semitic. That despite the fact that large numbers of Jewish people were on the various demonstrations in support of Palestine over the past few weeks and joined in chanting the slogan!

It is clear from the context and the wide range of people joining in the chant that the spin put on it by the Israeli government and their international cheerleaders is false. The focus should be elsewhere, but to the extent that 'from the river to the sea' is a cause of distress to some people, it is those peddling that cynical nonsense that are the problem. You are part of that problem James.

And in response to an earlier come back from you - you have never been even handed in your denunciation of the chant - even though it has been used by Zionists (especially Christian Zionists) for decades to promote the idea of a biblical Israel with Palestinian arabs ethnically cleansed. Your focus has only been one way - to join in the attempts to silence the solidarity movement and the Palestinian resistance. Every form of non-violent action and every form of criticism of the actions and state ideology of Israel is labelled as anti Semitic.

Decades of rolling land grabs, murders by armed settlers (backed by the IDF), imprisonment without trial, daily humiliations and barriers to movement, and the physical dismantling of any possibility of a Two State Solution produces nothing but mild hand wringing in Europe and the USA, backed by UN vetos and massive injections of money and arms. That has not changed even with the creation of an extremist government that includes fascists, a government that makes overt racist statements about non-Jews in the occupied territories, Gaza and Israel, and as the scale of killings of Palestinians in the West Bank has reached new heights.

The victims of this feel abandoned and desperate. It is a powder keg that creates the conditions for the mass terrorist atrocities by Hamas. It also provides cover for Netanyahu and his allies to speed up their move to create a single Jewish Supremacist state 'from the river to the sea'. Demonstrators in London and New York calling for peace and justice in Israel/Palestine is not the problem here.

If people who call for a free Palestine are according to JW cool with what he thinks are anti Semitic chanting .....despite being sung by plenty of people of Jewish origin then he clearly is an Israeli stooge

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Thankfully there is a bigger world out there than half a dozen or so people on CCMB, and if you were following what was going on in the media in the last 48 hours or so then you would see that yours isn't a common position.

You may be cool with it, but anything making Jews in this country afraid doesn't help anything.

OK let's call it as you would say

You think people who don't share your view that these songs are blatantly anti Semitic are COOL with anti semitism

You are an Israeli stooge and all your pretence of equal treatment is dependent on Israel being more equal than everybody else

That's Zionism

You are on your own , I really can't be doing with debating with Benjamin Netanyahus love child

[JamesWales]

OK let's call it as you would say

You think people who don't share your view that these songs are blatantly anti Semitic are COOL with anti semitism

You are an Israeli stooge and all your pretence of equal treatment is dependent on Israel being more equal than everybody else

That's Zionism

You are on your own , I really can't be doing with debating with Benjamin Netanyahus love child

Have a word with yourself Sludge. Zionist for objecting to a chant that many consider racist! Ridiculous statement.

Get a grip. If you can't go to protest without engaging in chants that many consider racist then something is wrong with you.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Have a word with yourself Sludge. Zionist for objecting to a chant that many consider racist! Ridiculous statement.

Get a grip. If you can't go to protest without engaging in chants that many consider racist then something is wrong with you.

You said people like me are cool with anti Semitic chanting

That's obviously utter bullshit so I am calling you out as a Israeli sympathiser despite another few hundred dead Palestinians yesterday due to the bombing

It's an Israeli smokescreen and you are clearly sacked right into it

It's almost as if you would rather talk about the semantics of a chant that has been around for decades and lay on fake sympathy than the clear and present bombing of innocent Palestinians

If you were to be commentating on last nights reckless missile launches you might have a defence

But like the Palestinians you have nothing

You will still be arguing the toss on here in 6 months no doubt but it's tiresome so I am going g to leave you to it

[JamesWales]

You said people like me are cool with anti Semitic chanting

That's obviously utter bullshit so I am calling you out as a Israeli sympathiser despite another few hundred dead Palestinians yesterday due to the bombing

It's an Israeli smokescreen and you are clearly sacked right into it

It's almost as if you would rather talk about the semantics of a chant that has been around for decades and lay on fake sympathy than the clear and present bombing of innocent Palestinians

If you were to be commentating on last nights reckless missile launches you might have a defence

But like the Palestinians you have nothing

You will still be arguing the toss on here in 6 months no doubt but it's tiresome so I am going g to leave you to it

I didn't actually say you are cool with antisemitism, I said you are cool with the chant (and you clearly are) and that chant is considered racist. You can put the two together if you want but I didn't say it.

And for the nth time, this is about social harmony in that UK, not the war itself which is plainly massively more traumatic.

However, given you started a thread demanding Kay Burley be sacked for asking a politician a question you rather lose the right to accuse others of not seeing the bigger picture.

[Jordi Culé]

Yeah I mean you can personally not view it as such, that is of course fine, because we do all interpret things differently. I think most people chanting it don't know what it really means (or could mean) although some certainly do. I don't think we can be naive to some of the very ugly sides that are capable of exploiting what is a very legitimate protests that fundamentally call for peace.

But in a context of rising tensions it is the opinions of British Jews that I think count in relation to this song and many seem concerned by it. Here's a BBC article from today that cites it specifically.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67266475

In Paris we are seeing graffiti reminiscent of the 1930s accompanied by a similar message.

So on balance I just think its a very very dubious message that if nothing else is entirely unhelpful to the cause and I really hope we don't hear it again.

And before anyone pipes up saying that worse things happen..that's true, but we do live in Britain and seeing tensions inflamed more in here is not in our interest, any communities interest, nor the interests of people in Gaza.

I'll never dream of suggesting to British Jews what they should be thinking or feeling but I did read that article and the thought did cross my mind that (unfairly?) that the lad is weaponising the meaning of the chant/slogan to tie in with his beliefs and he's somewhat put a blanket policy that anyone using it is anti semitic.

I think we've established must who have used the chant are not anti semitic although there'll be a few who may well be.

'From the River to the sea' is one of those slogans similar to 'Tiocfaidh ár lá' or 'No Surrender' that got different subtext to the individuals/groups using them.

To a lesser extent 'Yma O Hyd' that if I'm right you felt uncomfortable with due to its Nationalist connotations but the majority singing at CCS as an expression of being Welsh.

My 10 year old loves the song and hasn't started burning down English owned holiday homes yet?

As for 'From the River...' being chanted by lentil eating lefties from London being unhelpful to any peace process I'm going to suggest it's not the biggest obstacle at this minute.

Rising tensions in the UK? Both sides of the Gaza conflict are being led by extremist parties. Any supporters of these parties who whole heartedly support Hamas or Netanhayu will obviously stoke up issues as they have no time for compromise.

Israel totally demolishing Gaza isn't helping either.

[JamesWales]

I'll never dream of suggesting to British Jews what they should be thinking or feeling but I did read that article and the thought did cross my mind that (unfairly?) that the lad is weaponising the meaning of the chant/slogan to tie in with his beliefs and he's somewhat put a blanket policy that anyone using it is anti semitic.

I think we've established must who have used the chant are not anti semitic although there'll be a few who may well be.

'From the River to the sea' is one of those slogans similar to 'Tiocfaidh ár lá' or 'No Surrender' that got different subtext to the individuals/groups using them.

To a lesser extent 'Yma O Hyd' that if I'm right you felt uncomfortable with due to its Nationalist connotations but the majority singing at CCS as an expression of being Welsh.

My 10 year old loves the song and hasn't started burning down English owned holiday homes yet?

As for 'From the River...' being chanted by lentil eating lefties from London being unhelpful to any peace process I'm going to suggest it's not the biggest obstacle at this minute.

Rising tensions in the UK? Both sides of the Gaza conflict are being led by extremist parties. Any supporters of these parties who whole heartedly support Hamas or Netanhayu will obviously stoke up issues as they have no time for compromise.

Israel totally demolishing Gaza isn't helping either.

It does sound as if you are starting to recognise the problematic nature of that chant. I of course recognise that context matters..I have always said that and it does depend who is saying what and how. But it does also matter who is saying what on the receiving end and I think this chant does represent the less savoury side of the marches that we are seeing.

Also, I don't think Hamas and the Israeli government can quite so easily both be labelled as extremist. One is democratic, one isn't. One will kill you for being a Jew, the other doesn't kill you for being an Arab. One is home to one of the great gay cities of the world (Tel Aviv) the other it's illegal for men to be gay.

So I don't think the two are the same, despite both obviously playing a role in escalating where we now are.

I do hope things calm a little in the next couple of weeks and I think less of this kind of thing and more of an emphasis on peace and aid will only help tbh.

As for Yma o Hyd, its a beautiful song but I do think the FAW are unwise to get overly attached to so political a figure.

[jon1959]

It does sound as if you are starting to recognise the problematic nature of that chant. I of course recognise that context matters..I have always said that and it does depend who is saying what and how. But it does also matter who is saying what on the receiving end and I think this chant does represent the less savoury side of the marches that we are seeing.

Also, I don't think Hamas and the Israeli government can quite so easily both be labelled as extremist. One is democratic, one isn't. One will kill you for being a Jew, the other doesn't kill you for being an Arab. One is home to one of the great gay cities of the world (Tel Aviv) the other it's illegal for men to be gay.

So I don't think the two are the same, despite both obviously playing a role in escalating where we now are.

I do hope things calm a little in the next couple of weeks and I think less of this kind of thing and more of an emphasis on peace and aid will only help tbh.

As for Yma o Hyd, its a beautiful song but I do think the FAW are unwise to get overly attached to so political a figure.

You don't think the Israeli government is extremist?

You don't think the Israeli government (via the IDF and/or armed settlers) kill people for being Arab (or for being Arab demonstrators or Arab farmers in the way of a new illegal settlement)?

Wow!

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

You don't think the Israeli government is extremist?

You don't think the Israeli government (via the IDF and/or armed settlers) kill people for being Arab (or for being Arab demonstrators or Arab farmers in the way of a new illegal settlement)?

Wow!

The Israeli government is democratic extremist

Which basically means they kill people if they have to and sometimes when they don't have to

There is video footage of gangs of Israelis in tel aviv chanting kill the Arabs! circulating on the news tonight

But that's OK because Israel is a democracy

[JamesWales]

You don't think the Israeli government is extremist?

You don't think the Israeli government (via the IDF and/or armed settlers) kill people for being Arab (or for being Arab demonstrators or Arab farmers in the way of a new illegal settlement)?

Wow!

I don't think they can be casually talked about in the same way as a terrorist organisation such as Hamas, no. They were voted in, they can be voted out. And as I say, you need to consider how Jews or gay people would be treated in Gaza vs how arabs or gay people are treated in Israel before casually equating them as the same thing.

If you are being killed by someone it may not seem that different, but that can apply to any conflict in history

[jon1959]

I don't think they can be casually talked about in the same way as a terrorist organisation such as Hamas, no. They were voted in, they can be voted out. And as I say, you need to consider how Jews or gay people would be treated in Gaza vs how arabs or gay people are treated in Israel before casually equating them as the same thing.

If you are being killed by someone it may not seem that different, but that can apply to any conflict in history

I'm not equating them as the same thing.

I am challenging you on the way you described the Israeli government.

I am not disputing that a gay Arab man living under the Hamas regime in Gaza will be a lot less comfortable (and safe) than a gay Jewish man living in Israel.

But an Arab baby living in Gaza (it makes no real difference whether in the north or the south of the strip - both are bombed by Israel) is a lot less safe than a Jewish baby living in Israel.

There is almost 100% agreement about the character of Hamas on this board (maybe not on how and why they evolved as they did) but only some posters are determined to pour perfume over the Israeli government (in fact the Israeli state as it is based on an ideology that has found its perfect vehicle in the current government).

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

I'm not equating them as the same thing.

I am challenging you on the way you described the Israeli government.

I am not disputing that a gay Arab man living under the Hamas regime in Gaza will be a lot less comfortable (and safe) than a gay Jewish man living in Israel.

But an Arab baby living in Gaza (it makes no real difference whether in the north or the south of the strip - both are bombed by Israel) is a lot less safe than a Jewish baby living in Israel.

There is almost 100% agreement about the character of Hamas on this board (maybe not on how and why they evolved as they did) but only some posters are determined to pour perfume over the Israeli government (in fact the Israeli state as it is based on an ideology that has found its perfect vehicle in the current government).

Indeed

It may be a pseudo democracy but that doesn't mean it isn't prone to killing and lying

Blimey Thatcher and the sinking of the belgrano and Blair in Iraq!

Legitimacy by election doesn't clear states of illegality

[JamesWales]

I'm not equating them as the same thing.

I am challenging you on the way you described the Israeli government.

I am not disputing that a gay Arab man living under the Hamas regime in Gaza will be a lot less comfortable (and safe) than a gay Jewish man living in Israel.

But an Arab baby living in Gaza (it makes no real difference whether in the north or the south of the strip - both are bombed by Israel) is a lot less safe than a Jewish baby living in Israel.

There is almost 100% agreement about the character of Hamas on this board (maybe not on how and why they evolved as they did) but only some posters are determined to pour perfume over the Israeli government (in fact the Israeli state as it is based on an ideology that has found its perfect vehicle in the current government).

Don't disagree with much of that tbh. I just think sometimes we forget that Israel is by far the most liberal and democratic state in the middle east.

As I said though, that makes no difference if that state is responsible (or even part responsible if you blame Hamas first) for a family member dying.

I also think it's unfortunate that Netanyahu is in power, but I think he's also a product of the wider arena there. Who in that part of the world seeks a weak leader? Irrespective, he is in power and I don't think the response would be much different if he wasn't really and Hamas knew what would happen. I can only hope that somehow after this we reach some kind of reckoning that means people demand peace in future, from both sides. But I can't see this happening until Hamas are no more.

[Jordi Culé]

It does sound as if you are starting to recognise the problematic nature of that chant. I of course recognise that context matters..I have always said that and it does depend who is saying what and how. But it does also matter who is saying what on the receiving end and I think this chant does represent the less savoury side of the marches that we are seeing.

Also, I don't think Hamas and the Israeli government can quite so easily both be labelled as extremist. One is democratic, one isn't. One will kill you for being a Jew, the other doesn't kill you for being an Arab. One is home to one of the great gay cities of the world (Tel Aviv) the other it's illegal for men to be gay.

So I don't think the two are the same, despite both obviously playing a role in escalating where we now are.

I do hope things calm a little in the next couple of weeks and I think less of this kind of thing and more of an emphasis on peace and aid will only help tbh.

As for Yma o Hyd, its a beautiful song but I do think the FAW are unwise to get overly attached to so political a figure.

James, I suggest you re-read my posts to see what my opinion on 'From the River...' is and the political motivations for its use by the majority of Pro Palestinian peace ptotestors in London.

I think I'm right in acknowledging that the 'slogan' can be viewed as both problematic and anti semitic/anti Arab when used by certain political groups, organisations or individuals.

I'll reaffirm my points that the slogan is being interpreted by different groups to legitimise and give credibility to their opinions, politics, beliefs, that's pro Palestinian and Pro Israeli by the way.

You've become concerned, outraged even, about woke lefties probably named Tamara and Tarquin, destabilising the peace process by marching around London sporting a shemagh each. How is the peace process doing this morning as a quick glimpse on a news website says a UN official is stating there is no actual safe place in the whole of Gaza.

As for not seeing the Israeli government as being extremist, I'll suggest their current policy of collective punishment on Gaza (which is construed as a war crime) supports my opinion they're as bad as Hamas.

Not sure why you've thrown 'gay rights' into the equation of a thread you started quite specifically? For me, we lost any credibility on that when the World Cup was hawked to Qatar and very little was said about their lack of equality. I'll wait for the great and the good to ramp up the support of 'gay rights' when the World Cup trots off to Saudi in 2034, or the next Tyson Fury fight is held in Saudi. Perhaps St. Pep of Catalonia can say something in support of gay rights or we can expect the Man City and Newcastle teams to sport rainbow t-shirts before a game at the Ethiad when playing a fixture?

As pointed out, no one will disagree with your point regarding gay civil rights in Gaza but you're swerving the original discussion and points. The discussion and points you've brought to the table butt.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

I don't care how liberal and democratic people who support Israel think it is

I couldn't give a toss

Those are just words

Facts show that liberal and democratic Israel, our friends apparently , are bombing kids

If that's being liberal and democratic take us back to the caves

[Dorcus]

I don't care how liberal and democratic people who support Israel think it is

I couldn't give a toss

Those are just words

Facts show that liberal and democratic Israel, our friends apparently , are bombing kids

If that's being liberal and democratic take us back to the caves

I think countries can be democratic and still abhorrent. Often it's due to the fact they have an abhorrent majority within their populace. Whether a country is democratic or not is irrelevant.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

I think countries can be democratic and still abhorrent. Often it's due to the fact they have an abhorrent majority within their populace. Whether a country is democratic or not is irrelevant.

America has plenty of moronic rednecks

[Jordi Culé]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/livebl...nd-or-deserts/

Seems like a reasonable suggestion?

In fairness Netanhayu has binned him for the moment.