What do you understand a FUNDAMENTALIST to be?

[Taunton Blue Genie]

I note you use the word mimicking in each of your examples.

I suppose my reply to all this supposed plagiarism would have to be…why? i.e. why would a Hebrew author need to do that? Indeed, would he have had knowledge of these examples as they were presumably written in different languages in different places at different times? Also should it be surprising that the recording of some of these different events may have happened elsewhere e.g. the flood – if this was a universal catastrophe then there may have been other survivors in other countries who would have recorded the same event? I bet Job was not the only person on the planet to be angry with God because he had a raw deal in life!

I wonder if any of the other writers of the events you list prophesised the coming of the Messiah, Jesus Christ, God in human form, as the writers of the book of Isaiah did? (I understand that there may have been several writers who contributed to this book). IMO this book is one of the most important in the OT as it points to the coming of Christ although it was written at least 400 years before that. This would beg the question what text did the author(s) “mimic” when this book was written if we follow the plagiarism line that you are proposing. I would be interested to know.

You ask…how anyone can believe these stories as being literal in the 21st century when they were collated by people who had little or no idea about atoms, plate tectonics, bacteria, space-time, electricity, evolution and all the other things we know about now, I don't know. Well, I do really. It's down to indoctrination as a child.

Well, modern man may know a lot about atoms, plate tectonics, bacteria, space-time, electricity, evolution and all the other things we know about now, but he has learned precious little about the basic but important things that Jesus spoke about like justice, self-control, selflessness, envy, greed, hate and aggression. Indeed we seem to be in reverse rather than "evolving" into perfection or maybe you haven’t noticed how things are going lately?

As to indoctrination of a child, that’s possible of course but children do grow up to be questioning teenagers/adults!

As I said, the nature of folklore is that it builds on previous folklore (and it's no coincidence that Christian festivities adopted themes from paganism e.g. Christmas being piggy-backed onto Saturnalia and Easter being named after a pagan godess!)

The concept of human messiahs existed in Zoroastrianism and not in Abrahamism. And there are probably many, many more examples around the world than this simple soul can think of off the top of his head, no doubt!

And considering that Judaism doesn't even recognise your Messiah and that there were many others in the region to make a claim to that concept, your argument doesn't stand up.

You really seem to have no idea about the world outside your indoctrinated bubble and the global cultural context that it sits in.

By the way, do you actually believe in the talking snake, the talking donkey, the virgin birth, Jesus being the Messiah and people being turned to salt? A simple 'yes' or'no' will suffice - and if so, what evidence is there for those things? Something written in a so-called holy book is not evidence as such, by the way. Self-fulfilling prophecies in a book that refer back to a book itself and which contains nonsense, proven fiction, sheer fantasy and laughable tales (and which is wriiten largely by unknown individuals reported hearsay in an era when the vast population were illiterate and parochial) does not constitute evidence to a thinking person, regardless of whether it satisfies you personally.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

As I said, the nature of folklore is that it builds on previous folklore (and it's no coincidence that Christian festivities adopted themes from paganism e.g. Christmas being piggy-backed onto Saturnalia and Easter being named after a pagan godess!)

The concept of human messiahs existed in Zoroastrianism and not in Abrahamism. And there are probably many, many more examples around the world than this simple soul can think of off the top of his head, no doubt!

And considering that Judaism doesn't even recognise your Messiah and that there were many others in the region to make a claim to that concept, your argument doesn't stand up.

You really seem to have no idea about the world outside your indoctrinated bubble and the global cultural context that it sits in.

By the way, do you actually believe in the talking snake, the talking donkey, the virgin birth, Jesus being the Messiah and people being turned to salt? A simple 'yes' or'no' will suffice - and if so, what evidence is there for those things? Something written in a so-called holy book is not evidence as such, by the way. Self-fulfilling prophecies in a book that refer back to a book itself and which contains nonsense, proven fiction, sheer fantasy and laughable tales (and which is wriiten largely by unknown individuals reported hearsay in an era when the vast population were illiterate and parochial) does not constitute evidence to a thinking person, regardless of whether it satisfies you personally.

Oops. I meant 'before'

[Gofer Blue]

As I said, the nature of folklore is that it builds on previous folklore (and it's no coincidence that Christian festivities adopted themes from paganism e.g. Christmas being piggy-backed onto Saturnalia and Easter being named after a pagan godess!)

The concept of human messiahs existed in Zoroastrianism and not in Abrahamism. And there are probably many, many more examples around the world than this simple soul can think of off the top of his head, no doubt!

And considering that Judaism doesn't even recognise your Messiah and that there were many others in the region to make a claim to that concept, your argument doesn't stand up.

You really seem to have no idea about the world outside your indoctrinated bubble and the global cultural context that it sits in.

By the way, do you actually believe in the talking snake, the talking donkey, the virgin birth, Jesus being the Messiah and people being turned to salt? A simple 'yes' or'no' will suffice - and if so, what evidence is there for those things? Something written in a so-called holy book is not evidence as such, by the way. Self-fulfilling prophecies in a book that refer back to a book itself and which contains nonsense, proven fiction, sheer fantasy and laughable tales (and which is wriiten largely by unknown individuals reported hearsay in an era when the vast population were illiterate and parochial) does not constitute evidence to a thinking person, regardless of whether it satisfies you personally.

Where to begin!!

Re: me being in my “indocrinated bubble” – it seems I am not alone, as there are about 2.3 billion other people (roughly 30% of the world's population) in there with me! (Data from Wikipedia). Your fabled Zoroastrian guys represent 0.03% so I suppose that must speak for itself. I wonder how many people have converted to Zoroastrianism down the centuries?

Re: my question about the Messiah – I was interested to know if the Zoroastrians had actually encountered a person amongst them who claimed to be the Messiah rather than just coming up with the concept of a Messiah.

Yes, I believe Jesus is THE Messiah. Yes, I believe in the Virgin Birth.

I know that Jews are still waiting for the Messiah. I have pinched the following quote from Wikipedia because it summarises the Jewish position more succinctly than I could!

Judaism has never accepted any of the claimed fulfilments of prophecy and holds that the coming of the Messiah will be associated with a specific series of events that have not yet occurred, including the return of Jews to their homeland and the rebuilding of the Temple, a Messianic Age of peace and understanding during which "the knowledge of God" fills the earth."And since Jews believe that none of these events occurred during the lifetime of Jesus (nor have they occurred afterwards), he is not the Messiah for them.

This sounds very much like the Second Coming to me so maybe they aren't that far off in their belief?

I have no problem with the dates for Christmas or Easter – as far as I am concerned they could be any dates, as long as there are specific days set aside for us to remember the events. I rather think the secular world would be pretty upset if these two festivals were abolished and along with them the public Christmas and Easter holidays. Alternatively I suppose Christians could be given the time off with paid leave and everyone else should go to work as normal!

Finally, regarding the talking snake and donkey, I will give you a typical politician's answer!

It seems to me there are three possible explanations:

1.The animal actually spoke.
2.The humans heard the voice of God coming from the animal.
3.The stories are complete nonsense because everyone knows animals can't speak.

I think number 3 is unlikely because I'm pretty sure the story would never have made it into the Bible – it would have been discounted as being ridiculous. That leaves me with the other two.

For number 1 I could say, well, if God is the creator of everything, then the sky's the limit as they say, and no further discussion is possible or necessary. So, yes, I could believe that. Just because it's extremely improbable, well, so is life itself!

For number 2 I could say, yes, that's possible too. I'm sure there must have been times in your life, even as an atheist, when you have had, shall we say, a “spiritual experience”. For instance standing on a mountain top and having a breath-taking moment when taking in a stunning view such as looking down into the Grand Canyon. I believe in those moments God can speak, maybe not always in audible terms but when particular thoughts suddenly come into your mind. This can also happen in stressful situations too when you are suddenly challenged and unsure what to do or say. So, yes, I could believe number 2 too.

However once again, in cracked record mode, I have to say all of the above have very little bearing on my faith in Jesus. He looks at the heart of each one of us and something tells me he is not going to reject me or anyone else who claims to be his follower because we don't understand everything that is in the Old Testament.

I know as an atheist you are interested in challenging my faith, that's fine because if you think I haven't already thought about a lot of these issues you are mistaken! Christianity is based on Jesus Christ and the New Testament recording of the events of that time. You reject these writings because they cannot be corroborated by independent sources or are simply hearsay. We must remember the time when all this took place. Yes, most people were illiterate but as a consequence of that, the oral tradition was very strong and accurate, something which is difficult for us to appreciate today in this world of instant written communication. Hence I have no problem with the work of the gospel writers or of Paul the apostle who was highly literate and could speak/write in at least three languages: Greek, Latin and Hebrew.

Finally, sorry for the delay in replying - I do have a life outside the CCMB!

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Faith is accepting something even though you haven’t seen it. Surely you can grasp that? Don’t you think there must be something in ‘these fairy stories’ you easily dismiss that has brought people to faith for 2000 years when other ‘fairy stories’ don’t last 2 minutes? There is little ‘control’ on our lives these days yet this faith survives and is prospering all over the world. A bit deep to dismiss casually as bollocks don’t you think?

Dave God has had 2000 years to give us evidence of his existence

I require evidence not someone telling me that Jesus said to someone in chapter 4 verse 17 that we should all love each other etc etc

It's happening again in this thread

If I boil the kettle I get hot water ......fact

If its a hot summer and I don't water the plants they die .....fact

In the winter its colder than it is in the summer

Facts

Christians , Muslims etc all tell us about stuff that has no basis in fact and in the case of Christians in particular they flip and flop continually

An old lady from a church is ill ......the church says it will have prayers for her ......she dies ......it was gods will .......not oh these prayers were a waste of time .....I wonder if this god and Jesus thing is nonsense ?

You simply can't debate the facts with religious people as they don't have any

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

True,you do not have to be a christian to treat others with respect.

Christians think their morality and kindness comes from God and Jesus

If you say that millions of people are kind and caring and live in communities where there is no knowledge of God or the Bible and these people are kind and caring because they just are ......Christians will say God is spreading his love even to people who don't know he's there

It's fairytale nonsense and they have an answer for everything but it's all based on nothing

[jon1959]

Fundamentalist:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...allowed-caning

[Gofer Blue]

Fundamentalist:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...allowed-caning

The characteristics of a Christian are love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Ask your self: by her actions does this woman fit this description?

[jon1959]

The characteristics of a Christian are love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Ask your self: by her actions does this woman fit this description?

She fits my description of a fundamentalst.

[life on mars]

She fits my description of a fundamentalist.

Other fundamentalist : hate woman's rights , gays , free speech , Jews , Christians , any forthright views on that ?

[Taunton Blue Genie]

The characteristics of a Christian are love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Ask your self: by her actions does this woman fit this description?

That doesn't exactly describe the most vociferous member of your flock on here who described my evidencing his misquoting of other posters as being Hamas-like.

[truthpaste]

That doesn't exactly describe the most vociferous member of your flock on here who described my evidencing his misquoting of other posters as being Hamas-like.

Twist away BG. Nobody is taken in by your distorted whining.
I said the rabbit holes you create are at the same level as Hamas, yet you twisted that round to imply that I was likening you to Hamas themselves! Really!! Is that all you've got?

Talk about desperation

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Twist away BG. Nobody is taken in by your distorted whining.
I said the rabbit holes you create are at the same level as Hamas, yet you twisted that round to imply that I was likening you to Hamas themselves! Really!! Is that all you've got?

Talk about desperation

No rabbit holes. No twisting of your words regardless of your proven twisting of mine on several occasions (and quoted in 'direct speech' I reproduced to boot.

And you highlighted comment above just about says everything about you. A total hypocrite for someone who supposedly espouses Christianity. I have a number of Christian friends who would find your simile as totally outrageous and highly offensive - and if you had any decency you would retract it and be severely embarrassed. No hope of that though.

[truthpaste]

No rabbit holes. No twisting of your words regardless of your proven twisting of mine on several occasions (and quoted in 'direct speech' I reproduced to boot.

And you highlighted comment above just about says everything about you. A total hypocrite for someone who supposedly espouses Christianity. I have a number of Christian friends who would find your simile as totally outrageous and highly offensive - and if you had any decency you would retract it and be severely embarrassed. No hope of that though.

If all rabbit holes were produced for evil intent like those in Gaza are, then you may have a point.
The quality and extent of rabbit holes have NO connection with evil on their own.
So me saying the quality of your rabbit holes being up there with the quality of those in Gaza is just that.
It is only you, desperately seeking to pin any blame on anyone associated with Christ that is the issue here.
The fact that you are still trying to muddy the waters with this nonsense is only verifying my point.

So keep digging!

Holes won't appear on their own

[Gofer Blue]

That doesn't exactly describe the most vociferous member of your flock on here who described my evidencing his misquoting of other posters as being Hamas-like.

I suspect he would own up, as I would, to fall a long way short of the sort of people Jesus wants us to be. If you find someone who ticks all the boxes let me know, because I would love to meet him/her!

For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23).

[truthpaste]

I suspect he would own up, as I would, to fall a long way short of the sort of people Jesus wants us to be. If you find someone who ticks all the boxes let me know, because I would love to meet him/her!

For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23).

Indeed, a Christian isn't some sort of goody-goody. While their morals should be better than you'd expect from your average citizen and their life aims very different indeed, they will let God, relatives and friends down as we all do.

The key difference between them and others is this, they've admitted their lives do fall short, they are NOT a good person (by God's definition) and because of this they realise they need and have then sought - and at some point - found a Saviour, in fact the only individual that can save them from falling into the Hands of the Living God, and that is The Lord Jesus Christ.

[jon1959]

[jeepster]

That was as funny as fcuk.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

So you've bought into Evolution as absolute truth and rejected man-made religion for what it is, just as flawed as evolution.
Like many Roman Catholics (which you may or may not have been), you have rejected it as one big mess. Join a long confused queue, that is hardly unique.

What Gofer (and others) have here is nothing to do with that, and the sooner you can spot the difference, the less irrational and confused you will be.

How incredibly laughable that is coming from someone who believes in a talking snake!

And, as usual, and as I have proven previously, you misquoted me. Your lies are tiresome.

[truthpaste]

How incredibly laughable that is coming from someone who believes in a talking snake!

And, as usual, and as I have proven previously, you misquoted me. Your lies are tiresome.

As usual, all froth, 100% whining, no content.

Is that all you can produce after 2 days?

Your delusion is complete.

[jon1959]

Your delusion is complete.

Irony has risen again!

[truthpaste]

Irony has risen again!

If you think you have a robust world view then let's hear it?

[jon1959]

If you think you have a robust world view then let's hear it?

I have, thank you.

I think we live in a physical world that operates to certain scientific laws that we are slowly starting to understand.

I do not believe there are any gods or fairies in the mix.

We are born. We live and achieve consciousness. We die. The end.

But my comment - the one that drew your deflecting response - was pointing out that if anyone on this board deserves the label of deluded, it is you. But self-awareness must be difficult with a closed mind and fetishising a book of bronze age folk tales.

[pipster]

A fundamentalist is someone who sticks very strictly to the basic teachings or beliefs of their religion or ideology etc. They usually take these teachings very seriously and don't like to change them or see them interpreted in new ways. They might prefer things to be done the same way they were traditionally done and might not be open to new ideas or changes - unfortunately.

But on the other side of the coin - that then means you have blokes wanting to identify as women, who can have a penis and go on the Labour party women only list for a constituency. Most of us seem to be in the middle - but it's the ones on either extreme that gets the light

[Taunton Blue Genie]

If all rabbit holes were produced for evil intent like those in Gaza are, then you may have a point.
The quality and extent of rabbit holes have NO connection with evil on their own.
So me saying the quality of your rabbit holes being up there with the quality of those in Gaza is just that.
It is only you, desperately seeking to pin any blame on anyone associated with Christ that is the issue here.
The fact that you are still trying to muddy the waters with this nonsense is only verifying my point.

So keep digging!

Holes won't appear on their own

You are a disgusting hypocrite and a serial, and proven liar. You are an absolute disgrace to decent Christians and an idiot to boot.

[jeepster]

You are a disgusting hypocrite and a serial, and proven liar. You are an absolute disgrace to decent Christians and an idiot to boot.

Well said, he accused me aswel.