These 3 Wins On The Bounce

[the other bob wilson]

Whatever the budget is it's a tiny fraction of the budget Malky had. He spent around £12m in one season then over £30m the next but was basically scared of his own shadow, had us playing football that made our eyes bleed and yet you wouldn't have a word said against him on here. We had quite a bit of back and forth at the time but you never budged an inch in your admiration for him and his football. How do you feel about that now? I'm certainly not looking for an argument here, I'm interested.

I'd love to see us playing decent football too, we've talked about this loads over the years in the Academy thread and elsewhere. Thing is though that having bought a season ticket through the 80s and 90s, and when Malky was here, and when Slade was here, and Warnock and mad Mick, I'd feel like a complete hypocrite if I turned round now and said my love for the beautiful game overrides my support for City. If it ever did get like that then I'd just stop going (and coming on here) and find another hobby instead. Being a football fan isn't compulsory, surely?

Two things about Malky, although his approach changed after that Charlton 5-4 (for a while after that I think we had the worst away defensive record in the division, we’d conceded a five, a four and two threes in away games before three months of the season was out, but we’d scored nine in those four matches ourselves), I never felt it was as defensive as we’ve been under Bulut. Mackay also had the excuse that he was in the Premier League for the last half a season he was here and that was no more than a battle for survival from day one. Would he have won that battle if he’d stayed? Who knows, but what is clear statistically is that we were a better side under Mackay than we were under Ole.


The other thing is that Mackay was lucky from my perspective that we hadn’t had almost a decade of playing physical, attritional football with an emphasis on set pieces when he took over, if we had, I might have had a different attitude towards him, so, by the same token, it could be argued that Bulut has been unlucky when it comes to my opinion of him. After all, we play much less long ball crap than we used to under him, but our passing football is not played with a positive approach as the way we seem so happy to go back to the keeper once we get close to the halfway line indicates. Also, on Wednesday, Grant and Wilson-Esbrand, two of our better players I’d say, were guilty of shockingly bad basic errors of technique or giving a simple pass which makes you wonder about what they’re doing in training. I didn’t hear him say it, but it was claimed on here that Danny Gabbidon had compared Wednesday’s match unfavourably with pub football and this was a game which I’d say was a bit better than quite a few we’ve been involved in lately= City fans have had around a decade now where the large majority of our victories could be described as “winning ugly” and I’m pretty sure that I’m not the only City fan for whom that line has worn thin.

However, it’s not only the boredom factor that has made me anti Bulut, just as bad for me is how he talks after defeats and how he singles out players for criticism in public (all players who to different degrees have the “x factor” that we so lack without Ramsey). I don’t like how he went from about mid November to the end of December talking as if it was some sort of holding operation until the transfer window opened when he could get some decent players (if I were a regular in the team in the final two months of last year, those comments would have really annoyed me) and then we got his rant after the Plymouth defeat when we hadn’t signed any one yet.

It is possible to support a team and not like the way they play. Nothing would please me more than a win today where we went toe to toe with Ipswich in terms of attacking play and came off deserved winners, but I’ll still be very happy if we get a win by the more likely way of getting ahead, then spending the rest of the match defending our lead because we’ll have done something we’ve not done yet in beating one of the top teams.

I’ll finish by saying that those first three away matches under Bulut were not what we’ve become used to seeing from his teams - think back to the Ipswich game where we played some really nice stuff at times and Ramsey’s goal was a beauty in terms of pass and move football, but what happened at half time with Ollie Tanner was a huge clue as to what we had coming and what happened in the second half had a lot to do with that decision. If you compared our games at Leeds and Leicester with what happened when they came to our place a few months later, it was like chalk and cheese - of course, they’re good sides and we’d probably have lost even if we’d not rolled over like we did, but even last year’s team was never as passive as we were in those games and have been in one or two others at home - let’s hope that a more confident team can give Ipswich more of a testing time of it than Leicester and Leeds got.

[Loramski]

Two things about Malky, although his approach changed after that Charlton 5-4 (for a while after that I think we had the worst away defensive record in the division, we’d conceded a five, a four and two threes in away games before three months of the season was out, but we’d scored nine in those four matches ourselves), I never felt it was as defensive as we’ve been under Bulut. Mackay also had the excuse that he was in the Premier League for the last half a season he was here and that was no more than a battle for survival from day one. Would he have won that battle if he’d stayed? Who knows, but what is clear statistically is that we were a better side under Mackay than we were under Ole.


The other thing is that Mackay was lucky from my perspective that we hadn’t had almost a decade of playing physical, attritional football with an emphasis on set pieces when he took over, if we had, I might have had a different attitude towards him, so, by the same token, it could be argued that Bulut has been unlucky when it comes to my opinion of him. After all, we play much less long ball crap than we used to under him, but our passing football is not played with a positive approach as the way we seem so happy to go back to the keeper once we get close to the halfway line indicates. Also, on Wednesday, Grant and Wilson-Esbrand, two of our better players I’d say, were guilty of shockingly bad basic errors of technique or giving a simple pass which makes you wonder about what they’re doing in training. I didn’t hear him say it, but it was claimed on here that Danny Gabbidon had compared Wednesday’s match unfavourably with pub football and this was a game which I’d say was a bit better than quite a few we’ve been involved in lately= City fans have had around a decade now where the large majority of our victories could be described as “winning ugly” and I’m pretty sure that I’m not the only City fan for whom that line has worn thin.

However, it’s not only the boredom factor that has made me anti Bulut, just as bad for me is how he talks after defeats and how he singles out players for criticism in public (all players who to different degrees have the “x factor” that we so lack without Ramsey). I don’t like how he went from about mid November to the end of December talking as if it was some sort of holding operation until the transfer window opened when he could get some decent players (if I were a regular in the team in the final two months of last year, those comments would have really annoyed me) and then we got his rant after the Plymouth defeat when we hadn’t signed any one yet.

It is possible to support a team and not like the way they play. Nothing would please me more than a win today where we went toe to toe with Ipswich in terms of attacking play and came off deserved winners, but I’ll still be very happy if we get a win by the more likely way of getting ahead, then spending the rest of the match defending our lead because we’ll have done something we’ve not done yet in beating one of the top teams.

I’ll finish by saying that those first three away matches under Bulut were not what we’ve become used to seeing from his teams - think back to the Ipswich game where we played some really nice stuff at times and Ramsey’s goal was a beauty in terms of pass and move football, but what happened at half time with Ollie Tanner was a huge clue as to what we had coming and what happened in the second half had a lot to do with that decision. If you compared our games at Leeds and Leicester with what happened when they came to our place a few months later, it was like chalk and cheese - of course, they’re good sides and we’d probably have lost even if we’d not rolled over like we did, but even last year’s team was never as passive as we were in those games and have been in one or two others at home - let’s hope that a more confident team can give Ipswich more of a testing time of it than Leicester and Leeds got.

Fair enough, thanks for the reply. Personally I'd say that having flirted with relegation twice in a row and being under a transfer embargo made this season more of a battle for survival than Malky going into a Premier League season back then having spent the best part of £50m and having a winning momentum from the season before but that's just my opinion.

Entertainment in sport is a tricky one. Ultimately, a team (or even a sport itself) will lose followers without it but I think sometimes you have to be careful what you wish for. I seem to remember a few sets of fans having protests about the way a team was playing (probably involving Allardyce) but the change of direction led to a drop down the table. Ipswich fans finally chased Mick out the club when they were 12th in the Championship, they finished 24th the following season. How entertaining did they find that? How entertained by Bazball are all the England fans in India this week, the Brighton fans in Rome etc? We had bigger crowds to watch Malky and Warnock's teams than anyone else here, what's the moral of that?

Bulut has been a frustrating character at times this season, of course, but the players seem to be putting the effort in for him and hopefully he's just been concentrating on building the platform that Llan Bluebird talked of earlier and a more palatable end-product will come in time.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Fair enough, thanks for the reply. Personally I'd say that having flirted with relegation twice in a row and being under a transfer embargo made this season more of a battle for survival than Malky going into a Premier League season back then having spent the best part of £50m and having a winning momentum from the season before but that's just my opinion.

Entertainment in sport is a tricky one. Ultimately, a team (or even a sport itself) will lose followers without it but I think sometimes you have to be careful what you wish for. I seem to remember a few sets of fans having protests about the way a team was playing (probably involving Allardyce) but the change of direction led to a drop down the table. Ipswich fans finally chased Mick out the club when they were 12th in the Championship, they finished 24th the following season. How entertaining did they find that? How entertained by Bazball are all the England fans in India this week, the Brighton fans in Rome etc? We had bigger crowds to watch Malky and Warnock's teams than anyone else here, what's the moral of that?

Bulut has been a frustrating character at times this season, of course, but the players seem to be putting the effort in for him and hopefully he's just been concentrating on building the platform that Llan Bluebird talked of earlier and a more palatable end-product will come in time.

I'd like to offer some of my thoughts as well as I think it's a fascinating subject.

Malky. I remember us getting walloped 4-1 at Vicarage Road by his Watford side and some fans thinking then that they wish he could be our manager. I think it's important to be as historically accurate as possible and say that, despite some entertaining games and promotion pushes, Dave Jones wasn't universally popular as manager as we kept falling short season on season. Back then we knew we needed a bit of steel about us if we were going to push on. Looking back now, it might be strange for a club to sack a manager that gets to two successive playoff campaigns, but there was a feeling that if Jones was going to get promotion, he would have done so.

I've never been one for money = guaranteed success. Lots of clubs have wasted money on poor transfers. I've felt it unkind to suggest Malky wouldn't have won promotion without spending. I'm not sure where the £12m figure comes from in his first season with us - I presume that includes wages. It certainly doesn't just come from transfer fees. In his first season we played some terrific stuff. Nobody expected a playoff bid but we managed that, plus a league cup final. I remember how we battered Palace over two legs in that cup semifinal yet it somehow went to penalties. We lost the first leg away from home but played really well. It was a shame that we came up against a West Ham side that was (apart from at home) too good for the Championship.

When Malky came to the club he was given 3 seasons to win promotion. It wasn't Malky's fault that the club decided to reduce that to 2 after his first year. As TOBW rightly said, we changed tactics after that 5-4 at Charlton. In another piece I wrote on here recently, we had 7 successive wins of a single goal that season. It became football where, if we didn't concede, we'd have enough up front. I recall a match, maybe Leicester away on Sky, where we were outplayed, but scored a winner and held on. We had little of that the season before.

There was also another underlying factor - getting to the Premier League. We'd kept missing out, had lost 3 playoff campaigns, while a certain club down the M4 went up through their only playoff campaign. I don't speak for everyone, but that made our failings all the more unpalatable. In just a few seasons they'd become top dogs of Welsh club football. I don't recall many caring how we won promotion, just as long as we did. Even the red shirts, though for some at the time decided it was an act they could not support, and after relegation, more joined in the protests, didn't really dampen the mood when we finally made it. I look back at it now and it feels like an alien side wearing red, but back then I didn't care. Now, I don't feel any connection to the PL side wearing red and even the win over Man City hardly raises a smile, but back then it was just a relief to be there. I look back and think I got that wrong.

When Warnock won promotion, that was on the back of some dreadful stuff, keep it tight, launch it long and win your battles. Yet, we did score some cracking goals that season and could play some exciting football.

Since Warnock's side deservedly went down, we've had little to shout about. Most football has been boring, home form has been one of the worst in the 4 divisions. Long gone are the days of a cult hero to cheer on. We used to love home grown talent coming through but there's been precious little of that. It all feels a long way from the sides we had before we first won promotion.

I've seen some amazing moments as a City fan. I remember my jaw dropping when Earnshaw scored a 30 yarder against Stoke - controlled a long ball on his shoulder and let fly. I saw Whittingham score way too many amazing goals. I saw Chopra make chances in the box out of nothing, McPhail splitting defences with incredible accuracy, Mendez-Laing and Hoilett terrorising fullbacks and scoring extraordinary goals. Even Noone could score something spectacular. At the moment we're getting orgasmic over a goal scored by Diedhiou, which, yes, decent cut back and finish, but it was the sort of goal we used to be used to. Tanner's beauty against the Jacks would have just been a "decent goal" 15 years ago but, because we've been bereft of so many moments like that over the last few seasons as we've struggled and made so many poor decisions on and off the field, they have become special.

Some are happy just to win, don't care how we score and that's fine, that's up to them. I guess I've grown up on watching good football at times with the City (perhaps not Leicester's winner at Ninian Park in 2007 which even Ali was embarrassed to announce), and how much we've fallen. Particularly when the Jacks won promotion, winning meant everything. I know I could be a right arse on here when we lost 15 years ago. Now I don't care. I don't celebrate wins that much (apart from Swansea this season). Most of my experiences watching us at home over the last few seasons is being bored shitless.

[Loramski]

I'd like to offer some of my thoughts as well as I think it's a fascinating subject.

Malky. I remember us getting walloped 4-1 at Vicarage Road by his Watford side and some fans thinking then that they wish he could be our manager. I think it's important to be as historically accurate as possible and say that, despite some entertaining games and promotion pushes, Dave Jones wasn't universally popular as manager as we kept falling short season on season. Back then we knew we needed a bit of steel about us if we were going to push on. Looking back now, it might be strange for a club to sack a manager that gets to two successive playoff campaigns, but there was a feeling that if Jones was going to get promotion, he would have done so.

I've never been one for money = guaranteed success. Lots of clubs have wasted money on poor transfers. I've felt it unkind to suggest Malky wouldn't have won promotion without spending. I'm not sure where the £12m figure comes from in his first season with us - I presume that includes wages. It certainly doesn't just come from transfer fees. In his first season we played some terrific stuff. Nobody expected a playoff bid but we managed that, plus a league cup final. I remember how we battered Palace over two legs in that cup semifinal yet it somehow went to penalties. We lost the first leg away from home but played really well. It was a shame that we came up against a West Ham side that was (apart from at home) too good for the Championship.

When Malky came to the club he was given 3 seasons to win promotion. It wasn't Malky's fault that the club decided to reduce that to 2 after his first year. As TOBW rightly said, we changed tactics after that 5-4 at Charlton. In another piece I wrote on here recently, we had 7 successive wins of a single goal that season. It became football where, if we didn't concede, we'd have enough up front. I recall a match, maybe Leicester away on Sky, where we were outplayed, but scored a winner and held on. We had little of that the season before.

There was also another underlying factor - getting to the Premier League. We'd kept missing out, had lost 3 playoff campaigns, while a certain club down the M4 went up through their only playoff campaign. I don't speak for everyone, but that made our failings all the more unpalatable. In just a few seasons they'd become top dogs of Welsh club football. I don't recall many caring how we won promotion, just as long as we did. Even the red shirts, though for some at the time decided it was an act they could not support, and after relegation, more joined in the protests, didn't really dampen the mood when we finally made it. I look back at it now and it feels like an alien side wearing red, but back then I didn't care. Now, I don't feel any connection to the PL side wearing red and even the win over Man City hardly raises a smile, but back then it was just a relief to be there. I look back and think I got that wrong.

When Warnock won promotion, that was on the back of some dreadful stuff, keep it tight, launch it long and win your battles. Yet, we did score some cracking goals that season and could play some exciting football.

Since Warnock's side deservedly went down, we've had little to shout about. Most football has been boring, home form has been one of the worst in the 4 divisions. Long gone are the days of a cult hero to cheer on. We used to love home grown talent coming through but there's been precious little of that. It all feels a long way from the sides we had before we first won promotion.

I've seen some amazing moments as a City fan. I remember my jaw dropping when Earnshaw scored a 30 yarder against Stoke - controlled a long ball on his shoulder and let fly. I saw Whittingham score way too many amazing goals. I saw Chopra make chances in the box out of nothing, McPhail splitting defences with incredible accuracy, Mendez-Laing and Hoilett terrorising fullbacks and scoring extraordinary goals. Even Noone could score something spectacular. At the moment we're getting orgasmic over a goal scored by Diedhiou, which, yes, decent cut back and finish, but it was the sort of goal we used to be used to. Tanner's beauty against the Jacks would have just been a "decent goal" 15 years ago but, because we've been bereft of so many moments like that over the last few seasons as we've struggled and made so many poor decisions on and off the field, they have become special.

Some are happy just to win, don't care how we score and that's fine, that's up to them. I guess I've grown up on watching good football at times with the City (perhaps not Leicester's winner at Ninian Park in 2007 which even Ali was embarrassed to announce), and how much we've fallen. Particularly when the Jacks won promotion, winning meant everything. I know I could be a right arse on here when we lost 15 years ago. Now I don't care. I don't celebrate wins that much (apart from Swansea this season). Most of my experiences watching us at home over the last few seasons is being bored shitless.

Sorry but I haven't quite got time to give this the reply it deserves.

Firstly, going by Wiki, Malky spent around £11m in the promotion season and about 31m the following summer. Slightly lower than I remember but close enough to make my point valid I think. I wasn't talking about his first season which was done on a comparative shoestring but, even then, the £2.4m is surely more than Bulut's had to play with.

Secondly, you've lost your buzz for the City. I'm not sure what I'm meant to say to that. The ground's half empty these days so you're not the only one. Thankfully the other 15,000 or so don't come on here to tell us about it every five minutes, if you don't mind me saying. People have other stuff going on, that's fine. Like I said to TOBW, when I lose the buzz I'll find another hobby, I'm not sure why it's such a big issue. I've been speaking to a girl I know who's just 'divorced' from her partner after 16 years. That's an issue.

I don't think 'entertainment' is simply the answer with sport. If was just about that there'd be no point in keeping score. There has to be a level of game management in there or it's pointless. Getting that balance is the issue. People feel Bulut has gone too far the one way, it's fine to feel like that and there's a debate to be had. But, like I said to SP, throw caution to the wind against Swansea, play some kids and see how entertained people are on here if we take a hiding.

[the other bob wilson]

Fair enough, thanks for the reply. Personally I'd say that having flirted with relegation twice in a row and being under a transfer embargo made this season more of a battle for survival than Malky going into a Premier League season back then having spent the best part of £50m and having a winning momentum from the season before but that's just my opinion.

Entertainment in sport is a tricky one. Ultimately, a team (or even a sport itself) will lose followers without it but I think sometimes you have to be careful what you wish for. I seem to remember a few sets of fans having protests about the way a team was playing (probably involving Allardyce) but the change of direction led to a drop down the table. Ipswich fans finally chased Mick out the club when they were 12th in the Championship, they finished 24th the following season. How entertaining did they find that? How entertained by Bazball are all the England fans in India this week, the Brighton fans in Rome etc? We had bigger crowds to watch Malky and Warnock's teams than anyone else here, what's the moral of that?

Bulut has been a frustrating character at times this season, of course, but the players seem to be putting the effort in for him and hopefully he's just been concentrating on building the platform that Llan Bluebird talked of earlier and a more palatable end-product will come in time.

Must say I think you could have picked better examples to try and justify what you believe. As a City fan, the prospect of playing Roma in March (ie well into the competition) in a European tournament is one I’d gladly accept even if it meant losing 4-0. I’d also gladly swap the last ten years of what Brighton have done for our last decade. Every club in this season’s Championship should be using Brighton as a template because their recruitment is superb and although I accept there will be some frustration with how things have gone this season for their supporters they know they are living through the best period in the club’s history and all of this is coming on the back of them playing attractive football.

Bazball has to be judged a success over the whole of its existence surely - it’ll be interesting to see if there is a change of approach after this tour, but I doubt if there will be because taken as a whole, it’s entertaining and winning cricket.

Ipswich is a bit different because I’m sure there was a lot of frustration when they stayed in League One longer than most fans would have expected them to. I used to say that it was a bit precious of their fans treating Mick McCarthy the way they did, but having now had the “pleasure” of experiencing the man in charge of my club, I have more sympathy for them. Anyway, despite their relegation and time in League One I’d guess that your average Ipswich fan would say it was worth it given where they are now (I would in their position) - they have also got there by playing attacking football.

Ipswich are just one example of the notion that you have to play pragmatic football to succeed being proved wrong, there are hundreds more of them as well. You can succeed by playing pragmatic football of course, but the attitude at City (and among some on here as well lately) appears to be that you have to play that way if you want to win anything.

[Loramski]

Must say I think you could have picked better examples to try and justify what you believe. As a City fan, the prospect of playing Roma in March (ie well into the competition) in a European tournament is one I’d gladly accept even if it meant losing 4-0. I’d also gladly swap the last ten years of what Brighton have done for our last decade. Every club in this season’s Championship should be using Brighton as a template because their recruitment is superb and although I accept there will be some frustration with how things have gone this season for their supporters they know they are living through the best period in the club’s history and all of this is coming on the back of them playing attractive football.

Bazball has to be judged a success over the whole of its existence surely - it’ll be interesting to see if there is a change of approach after this tour, but I doubt if there will be because taken as a whole, it’s entertaining and winning cricket.

Ipswich is a bit different because I’m sure there was a lot of frustration when they stayed in League One longer than most fans would have expected them to. I used to say that it was a bit precious of their fans treating Mick McCarthy the way they did, but having now had the “pleasure” of experiencing the man in charge of my club, I have more sympathy for them. Anyway, despite their relegation and time in League One I’d guess that your average Ipswich fan would say it was worth it given where they are now (I would in their position) - they have also got there by playing attacking football.

Ipswich are just one example of the notion that you have to play pragmatic football to succeed being proved wrong, there are hundreds more of them as well. You can succeed by playing pragmatic football of course, but the attitude at City (and among some on here as well lately) appears to be that you have to play that way if you want to win anything.

And who started that here? And who's trying to defend him even now?

I picked those examples because I reckon that England cricket fans and Brighton fans are thinking this week that a bit of game management wouldn't go amiss at times alongside the entertainment. I don't think any fan enjoys watching their team getting stuffed, it's not the first time it's happened to both of them recently too. I don't think any fan enjoys watching their team get relegated either. Of course it can turn out to be a happy accident in the long term but I don't think fans or clubs see it as part of a masterplan at the time.

You see it differently though, fair enough. You think entertainers should stick to their principles and shouldn't compromise. Pragmatism and game management aren't for you and you'll mock the posters on here who see it differently. It's all about playing the game the right way, keep doing that and success will follow. Win win.

But

City played entertainingly under Dave Jones, Malky's Watford were entertaining too so it should've been a good match here. He'd been given millions to spend so there should've been success to go with the entertainment but it turned out Malky was a pragmatist. No more entertainment for him, it was game management all the way with football that would send a glass eye to sleep, even after being given another £30m to spend.

I've no idea how you can take the moral high ground on here while sticking up relentlessly for Malky. It's one or the other, surely?