Reply With QuoteI suspect you are taking the wacky USA style evangelists as every evangelist!Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
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I reject all religion
I find the evangelical lot even worse than the Catholic stuff I was forced to listen as a kid
I suspect you are taking the wacky USA style evangelists as every evangelist!
Robin Friday's Ghost - I wonder if you have had any further thoughts on this? I'd be interested if you have.
I'd you believe the most likely explanation is, that a dead person came back to life and escaped them fair enough. But that argument wouldn't even stand up to the civil law test of probability let alone the criminal test of being beyond all reasonable doubt.
Any number of other explanations would be more plausible. For example, the guards falling asleep, them being closet followers of Jesus, etc.
If you haven't already I recommend you read the book "Who moved the stone" by Frank Morison. A non-Christian, he examined every facet of the cruxifixion and resurrection* of Jesus and found that all the alternative explanations are less plausible than Jesus rose from the dead.
*Including the theories that the guards fell asleep and body was stolen by the disciples, plus a whole lot more.
Burke & Hare?
Don’t be daft jeepster. Clearly this is a case of the corpses rising from the dead and shuffling off to the surgeons slabs, where they had a little think and decided to expire after all.
Any other explanation is so improbable it is really impossible!
I challenge you both to read the book and then come back and debate its findings with me.
I think the problem here is two fold
We are talking about events as if they are facts that are alleged to have happened 2000 plus years ago
Huge alarm bells
Then we have someone who is a non Christian.....yeah right ... coming to the conclusion that Jesus rising from the dead is more likely than some of Jesus's mates taking his body away
If I was listening to someone telling me this I would think he's either having a laugh and a joke ,hes a conman and must think I am stupid or he needs to be talking to a psychiatrist
It's a load of nonsense
I don't have to read the autobiography of David ike to realise he's off his cake
He's deluded
And if this book you quote is saying that Jesus waking from the dead is more likely than Jesus in a dead state being taken away then the author is a conman or completely mad or both
I haven't read that book and I'm not likely to. I'm up to my eyes writing up my doctoral thesis. It's on the interwar era in South Wales. As an historian I know that historical "evidence" is a. rarely, if ever, objective and b. often not accurate. Your claim that this book examines "every facet" of the events is a bit daft. No offence intended. My own research has brought to light new evidence (acknowledging the caveats I've mentioned above) which calls into question some well-established views on historical events in interwar Wales. Any study which claims to offer the definitive account of anything should be treated with extreme caution. We are constantly revising our views on historical events in the light of new research. Otherwise there would be no point in historians bothering to do new research. Your view is clearly different, but personally I would be especially sceptical about any research which found that the most likely explanation for the events it describes is dead matter being brought back to life. I'm not going to pursue this matter with you. If you think I'm wrong or afraid to debate it then that's fine. It's simply that I find the whole thing ludicrous, it holds very limited interest for me and I have, what to me, are more important things to do with my time.
I havent read this 100 year old book. But Morrison I believe was a church goer and from what I can gather is virtually all his evidence is from the gospels.
Also isnt it the resurrection hes specifcally looking at?
Doesnt he almost immediately into this book describe those who deny the historical existence of Jesus as an absurd cult.?
When you declare that if the evidence leads to Christ's resurrection being a fact of history then your skepticism will kick in, then this means you are creating a fresh set of rules for the way you view science and history simply to maintain your world view.
Your denial is certainly more sophisticated than many others here, but in the end it is still denial and an unwillingness to honestly engage the evidence head on.
I'm sure Gofer would agree that this is the most important issue (who Christ actually is) anyone will consider at any point in their earthly life.
When you declare that if the evidence leads to Christ's resurrection being a fact of history then your skepticism will kick in, then this means [in this case] you are creating a fresh set of rules for the way you view science and history simply to maintain your world view.
Your denial is certainly more sophisticated than many others here, but in the end it is still denial and an unwillingness to honestly engage the evidence head on.
I'm sure Gofer would agree that this is the most important issue (who Christ actually is) that anyone will consider at any point in their earthly life; as it will impact their eternal destiny.
I don't disagree, but I am not aware of any new evidence that has emerged that has undermined Morison's work which he wrote nearly 100 years ago, so plenty of time for that to happen.
Like you I found the whole subject ludicrous until I read Morison's very reasoned arguments and proved, at least to me, that the resurrection did, beyond reasonable doubt, occur.
Whether you want to debate it or not is your choice – I can't say I don't care because that would be incorrect. Like you I was too busy getting on with my life to be bothered to look into the claims of Christianity but I feel sure there will come a time when something will prompt you to investigate what are essentially outrageous claims!
Re your thesis – an interesting topic! I have only some limited knowledge of that period from talking with my Dad. He was born in 1913 and grew up in Mountain Ash, so he experienced first hand those inter-war years in the Valleys. His father was a coal miner who was killed in a pit roof fall in 1933. Sadly my Dad died nearly 30 years ago and how I wish I had asked him more questions about those days! Good luck with the thesis.
The book was written in 1930 so yes, nearly 100 years ago but of what significance that is I don't follow. Has some later evidence come to light that disproves what he has written?
He was a church-goer I believe, but that doesn't mean he was a Christian of course! It seems he was a sceptic just as I was before I read his book. I was a church-goer too until my mid teens when I got into science and dismissed Christianity for the next 25 years or so. Most of his evidence is from the gospels but he does also refer to Jewish texts and archeological evidence.
Yes the book is all about the resurrection because this is the crux of the Christian faith – no resurrection, no Christianity. End of.
I can't recall that he describes those who deny the historical existence of Jesus as an absurd cult because it was many years ago that I read the book (approx 40 years!). I would have to dig it out and check that for myself I guess. I don't suppose you have a reference to whereabouts in the book it is? BTW where did you read that if you haven't read the book? It does seem rather extreme language, however you will find that most historians accept that there was an historical Jesus.
I agree. See also my reply to Robin Friday's Ghost repsonse.
Thank you. Yes it is fascinating. Mine focuses upon the Ebbw Fach valley - Abertillery area - where I was born and lived until a few years ago. My dad was a miner and a local councillor. He would have been a mine of info (no pun intended) but he died when I was quite young. His and your dad's generation were very special and deserve to be honoured.
OK! I guess it is pretty odds-on that any man of working age in the Valleys during that period was a coal miner! My ancestors came from Wiltshire (agricultural labourers) and Devon (copper miners) in the 1850's when the Valleys were like the Klondyke i.e. for coal rather than gold.
Dad was the youngest of four brothers and the two oldest became miners. He and his next oldest brother “got on their bikes” (literally) and set off for a new life. WW2 intervened and, as for countless others, it changed the course of my Dad's life completely.
He eventually came back to Mountain Ash but it's a very long story which I am in the (very slow) process of writing up in the form of a biography of my Dad. This is primarily for my grandchildren who never knew my Dad and know nothing of life in the Valleys.
I know most people think their Dad is a hero, but as you say these particular men were special. They grew up in relative poverty, endured the General Strike and then WW2. I know I couldn't hold a candle to them!
My dream is to write a novel about our ancestors along the lines of “How green was my valley” but rather less sentimental I think. It would make a good TV serial too. Sadly time is running out for me so I doubt it'll ever materialise!
My brother lives in the States and over there they call them the Greatest Generation. My uncle died in WW2 and is buried in Padua cemetery in Italy. I've been there to visit his grave. It's beautifully maintained and very peaceful. My cousin (who was in the armed services) and I put together a dossier of his life including his time at war. He was actually captured twice and was eventually injured by US friendly fire and died of gangrene later. We even have letters from the Italian nurse who looked after him.
I became interested in the interwar era after becoming friends in my early 20s with an old chap who was a lifelong communist and had been active in the political struggles of that time. An incredible man among many incredible men and women.
I hope you get to write your story. There is never a better time than now.
Yes thanks for that, we can learn a lot from every generation, and also appreciate how much easier we have it in comparison.
I envy the fact that so many more knew the Lord in those days, so it must have been so much easier having a 'normal' conversation about matters outside this brief existence in time. I feel that way when I meet many people from Africa (for example), as they are able to talk about faith as casually as we do the weather, with no sign of a nose bleed!
As for your comments on character and our approach to those who are seeking reliable answers in the fog of war, politics, materialism, lust and vanity, then one guy I work alongside on our leadership team is very much like yourself, measured and much less confrontational than I often am. I suppose I see him as the 'John' and I am more the 'Peter', though I don't have a collection of ears in my freezer
I just feel that if someone wishes to sweep their hand (like dismissing an email on their mobile) at what Christian's believe, then they should at least have two things; firstly a good reason for why they think otherwise, and secondly their reason for dismissing the claims of Christ including His Resurrection, particularly given the irrefutable evidence.
I have chosen to work on the 'front line' for just over 40 years, discussing key matters with (for example) Muslims, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Religious Protestants, Catholics (R), open minded Agnostics, and of course the more common close minded Agnostics.
Each of them have a position on Christ, even if it's only His Name on their angry lips.
Of course many would assume I have blazing arguments with these people, but with the exception of a few over-heated 'religious christians', I end up having a mutually enjoyable time with the majority, often exchanging email addresses for further correspondance or arranging to meet regularly to talk things through properly. One such retired JW couple I have met on and off since 2018.
During WW2 your uncle would have been in Italy at the same time as my Dad. Our Dad was with a field ambulance unit in the 78th (“The Battleaxe") Division and came to Italy via North Africa. I have read the war diaries for his unit at the NA in Kew and subsequently retraced his movements all the way through Italy to Austria where he was demobbed. I took photos of all the towns and villages that his unit had stopped at and talked to some of the locals, at least the ones who were old enough to remember the war. We actually stayed one night at the same villa which his unit had commandeered back in 1944 - it's now a B&B!
I was thinking of him yesterday in particular as it was the 80th anniversary of the battle at Monte Cassino. Although he rarely spoke about the war (again I wish I had asked him more about his memories) I discovered after he died that the battle there had had a huge impact on him, because so much so that he had written a poem about it. I didn't know this until going through his papers - he called it "A Lament for Liri Plain". It is very moving.
The war time exploits will form quite a big section of the biography I think, as it brought about a huge change in his life circumstances.
I too have visited some of the military cemeteries in Italy. As you say they are immaculately kept. The one with the biggest impact on me was the Polish cemetery at Cassino. I actually cried when I saw the number of graves there (over 1000) and in particular reading the inscription there:
"We Polish soldiers, For our freedom and yours, Have given our souls to God , Our bodies to the soil of Italy, And our hearts to Poland."
Heartbreaking.
My father's brother was killed in WW2 , he was a gunner in a Stirling bomber
He was 19 , my father was 7
My grandfather on my dad's side was a very religious man a quaker but that was the end of his faith for him and the reason why my father was atheist
My father believed that if God existed and was all powerful then the horror of world war two ......and of course other awful events wouldn't happen
I agree
My uncle was in the Green Howards. We were fortunate that my cousin's forces background gave us access to records that would otherwise be difficto obtain. I also found details of his death online at the The National Archives and ordered copies. It might be worth looking to see if they have any details for your dad. https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
By the way, my uncle was first captured in north Africa. He was taken to a camp in Italy where he was released but then recaptured and eventually mortally wounded.
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