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Thread: Will New Trade Deal Come With New Referendum

  1. #1
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    Will New Trade Deal Come With New Referendum

    Does anyone belive that any new trade deal will not come with a commitment to accept migrant labour movement between the countries, if so will we see a new referendum to exit the rest of the world.

  2. #2
    Blue in the Face
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    Re: Will New Trade Deal Come With New Referendum

    It seems a mighty dangerous and unsettling thing to have offered a referendum built on nonsense from all sides promising changes that just cannot happen.

    What use is a referendum if there is no leeway to change things anyway?

  3. #3
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    Re: Will New Trade Deal Come With New Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue in the Face View Post
    It seems a mighty dangerous and unsettling thing to have offered a referendum built on nonsense from all sides promising changes that just cannot happen.

    What use is a referendum if there is no leeway to change things anyway?
    Indeed, what we will now see is Commonwealth migrants instead of European, one thing I can guarantee is we still have migrants and immigration, cant wait for Boris's first defense of the figures as Foreign Secretary , as a London mayor he fully knows that large cities cannot operate without migrants .

  4. #4

    Re: Will New Trade Deal Come With New Referendum

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...-free-movement

    Shocker!!

    "Hollande’s comments suggest it will be difficult for the UK to fulfil the desire of Boris Johnson, the foreign secretary, and other prominent leave figures during the referendum campaign, who favoured access to the single market while imposing limits on immigration."

  5. #5

    Re: Will New Trade Deal Come With New Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    Brexit did not mean (I think) the end of immigration - obviously - just the end of uncontrolled immigration, there is nothing wrong with that - otherwise we could all up sticks and move to Canada, Australia, New Zealand, why dont we get rid of all borders everywhere and we can go wherever we want ffs
    When was immigration uncontrolled?

  6. #6

    Re: Will New Trade Deal Come With New Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    Free movement of workers is a fundamental principle of the Treaty in Article 45 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union and developed by EU secondary legislation and the Case law of the Court of Justice. EU citizens are entitled to: look for a job in another EU country.

    Brexiters should note that the total number of EU citizens living in another EU from where they were born is 2.4% of the EU population - so I have read. However NET EU immigration of 180k a year sounds a lot, especially when you had on the remaining amount from controlled immigration from outside the EU bring the figure up to 330k a year.

    One man's large stat is another man's small percentage.
    My point was that in the UK Immigration IS Controlled.

    Non EEA citizens need a visa, admittedly EEA citizens don't, but we still have passport control.

  7. #7

    Re: Will New Trade Deal Come With New Referendum

    As the UK never signed up to Schengen it had never lost control of its borders anyway.

    Why do you think you pass border controls on leaving and returning to the UK ?

    Just one of the " Leave " big lies.

  8. #8

    Re: Will New Trade Deal Come With New Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWales View Post
    As the UK never signed up to Schengen it had never lost control of its borders anyway.

    Why do you think you pass border controls on leaving and returning to the UK ?

    Just one of the " Leave " big lies.
    Exactly, I've given up trying to correct those who say we had (or still have) uncontrolled immigration.

  9. #9

    Re: Will New Trade Deal Come With New Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    Anyone who has an EU passport can come and work / live in the UK. Passport control is used (believe it or not) to check your passport and see if it says you have been a naughty boy - and that check doesnt always work either
    Is that what uncontrolled immigration is to you?

  10. #10
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    Re: Will New Trade Deal Come With New Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWales View Post
    As the UK never signed up to Schengen it had never lost control of its borders anyway.

    Why do you think you pass border controls on leaving and returning to the UK ?

    Just one of the " Leave " big lies.
    It wasn't a lie, it was a con, and the leave campaign used immigrants as there flag pole fear message, once the other arguements were losses.

  11. #11

    Re: Will New Trade Deal Come With New Referendum

    May believes, probably rightly so, that the vote out was a clear democratic wish to stop the free movement of people. So I cant see the free movement of people being agreed, even though european nations say it must be. I know they have little interest in democratic voices. But I Can't see MAy backing down.

    There will be a quasi free trade agreement, which will be somewhere between free trade, and the normal trade agreements. And there will be some free movement of europeans, but limited work access.

  12. #12

    Re: Will New Trade Deal Come With New Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by TH63 View Post
    My point was that in the UK Immigration IS Controlled.

    Non EEA citizens need a visa, admittedly EEA citizens don't, but we still have passport control.
    But EU movement was not controlled. AND NonEU citizens from within the EU could still freely move, and work as an EU citizen because some other country on different principles to what we would apply.

    500,000 new people a year is uncontrolled. I struggle to see how you could see that as controlled migration?

  13. #13

    Re: Will New Trade Deal Come With New Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Dragon View Post
    But EU movement was not controlled. AND NonEU citizens from within the EU could still freely move, and work as an EU citizen because some other country on different principles to what we would apply.

    500,000 new people a year is uncontrolled. I struggle to see how you could see that as controlled migration?
    EU citizens could only stay in the UK after three months if they were a student, had a job, were being supported by someone or apply for an extension as a job seeker.

    The 2015 International Passenger Survey (dudes with clipboards in airports) found that 41% of EU migrants came because they had a job and 32% came to look for work (a further 15% studying).

    The UK Labour Force survey says that of around 3m EU migrants in the UK, 2.15m are working (which excludes self employment).


    In short, far from being uncontrolled, the vast majority have come to the UK because we need them.
    Last edited by lardy; 28-07-16 at 13:11.

  14. #14

    Re: Will New Trade Deal Come With New Referendum

    "Far from retreating into isolation, the UK economy now looks more open than ever. It is gradually dawning on all but the most stubborn in the Remain camp that the world still wants to do business with an independent UK — and that, freed from having to tag along with EU trade deals, this country is now able to negotiate mutually favourable arrangements with fast-growing economies such as India and China. Meanwhile, the EU’s problems continue. Standard and Poor’s, one of the world’s top credit ratings agencies, warned recently that the EU is ‘unsustainable in its current form’.

    This is precisely the concern that persuaded 52 per cent of Brits that our long-term future is best served outside the EU. Nobody doubted that economic turbulence would follow, but the case for optimism far outweighs the case for pessimism. Brexit is neither an economic drag nor a stimulus: it is simply the removal of a constraint. What Britain now goes on to achieve depends entirely on the vision and ambition of those in power. Politicians and businesses should snap out of their sulk, and see Brexit for what it is: the greatest opportunity ever handed to a government by an electorate." The Spectator

    Spot on. Time for all Remnants to stop whinging and just let's make use of this great opportunity. We're free of the dead hand of the EU. Cause for celebration if ever there was one.

  15. #15

    Re: Will New Trade Deal Come With New Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by lardy View Post
    EU citizens could only stay in the UK after three months if they were a student, had a job, were being supported by someone or apply for an extension as a job seeker.

    The 2015 International Passenger Survey (dudes with clipboards in airports) found that 41% of EU migrants came because they had a job and 32% came to look for work (a further 15% studying).

    The UK Labour Force survey says that of around 3m EU migrants in the UK, 2.15m are working (which excludes self employment).


    In short, far from being uncontrolled, the vast majority have come to the UK because we need them.
    And thats still uncontrolled even having a job. The reason why we are the only major economy to have wages falling in the last decade is the 2million people that have come here to work, and keep our wages suppressed.

    Our wages have (under 1 measure that is not wholly accurate) fallen by nearly 10%, whilst germany have risen 10%.

    Yes some migration is needed and will always be needed, but the sheer numbers have simply been considerably more than is required, and the average working person has paid for it. Missing out on some £4,000 in wages.

    They have not come because we need them, they have come because they need us. We need a tiny number of the migrants that have actually come.

  16. #16

    Re: Will New Trade Deal Come With New Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Dragon View Post
    And thats still uncontrolled even having a job. The reason why we are the only major economy to have wages falling in the last decade is the 2million people that have come here to work, and keep our wages suppressed.

    Our wages have (under 1 measure that is not wholly accurate) fallen by nearly 10%, whilst germany have risen 10%.

    Yes some migration is needed and will always be needed, but the sheer numbers have simply been considerably more than is required, and the average working person has paid for it. Missing out on some £4,000 in wages.

    They have not come because we need them, they have come because they need us. We need a tiny number of the migrants that have actually come.
    But Germany are under the same migration rules as us? Even more 'uncontrolled', if you insist on using the word wrongly.

    So I'm a little confused how this can be the reason our wages are down and theirs are up. I'm sure you can help me out.

  17. #17

    Re: Will New Trade Deal Come With New Referendum

    Can you link me to the 4 grand stat please? Ta in advance.

  18. #18

    Re: Will New Trade Deal Come With New Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by lardy View Post
    Can you link me to the 4 grand stat please? Ta in advance.
    Simple maths. lost 10%, when we could of gained 10%, so assuming a 20% rise in average wage. Which is £24k here in Wales, £28 across the UK, gives you £4,800 and £5,400. Put a little less than the calculated figure as its a bit of a generalisation But when you take into account we had less austerity than the EU, we have a stronger recovery than any of the european nations, and employment levels are high, it would suggest that 2m cheap labour individuals coming in has suppressed wages significantly.
    Last edited by Barry Dragon; 29-07-16 at 10:11.

  19. #19

    Re: Will New Trade Deal Come With New Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Dragon View Post
    Simple maths. lost 10%, when we could of gained 10%, so assuming a 20% rise in average wage. Which is £24k here in Wales, £28 across the UK, gives you £4,800 and £5,400. Put a little less than the calculated figure as its a bit of a generalisation But when you take into account we had less austerity than the EU, we have a stronger recovery than any of the european nations, and employment levels are high, it would suggest that 2m cheap labour individuals coming in has suppressed wages significantly.
    This just doesn't make sense. If you're assuming that 99.9% of EU workers in the UK are cheap labour (which common sense and experience should tell you is miles from the truth), then you need to be looking at that area of wage and not average.

    And this one factor really doesn't explain why UK wages should drop when the same factor affects Germany and they've seen a rise (by your figures). That should again tell you that the reason is elsewhere.

  20. #20

    Re: Will New Trade Deal Come With New Referendum

    Wages rise in Germany, wages fall in uk, Germany has higher immigration than uk.

    = Blame immigration for wages falling in uk.

    Baffling. Broken record.

  21. #21

    Re: Will New Trade Deal Come With New Referendum

    Germany has only had higher immigration for 1 year. We had higher immigration for 6 years previous.

  22. #22

    Re: Will New Trade Deal Come With New Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Dragon View Post
    Germany has only had higher immigration for 1 year. We had higher immigration for 6 years previous.
    Haa Germany had no immigration? Still waiting for an explanation as to why immigration makes our wages fall when it makes german wages rise.

    When I studied research/stats in the very first lesson we were told correlation does not mean causation. That certainly comes to mind in this thread.
    Last edited by lardy; 29-07-16 at 22:02.

  23. #23

    Re: Will New Trade Deal Come With New Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Dragon View Post
    Germany has only had higher immigration for 1 year. We had higher immigration for 6 years previous.
    I don't think that is true either, do you just make this stuff up on the spot?

  24. #24

    Re: Will New Trade Deal Come With New Referendum

    I am pretty sure net migration to Germany has been higher for at least the last 3 years, in 2014 I am pretty sure it was significantly higher and obviously in 2015.

    There is a higher percentage of foreign nationals living in Germany than the UK.

  25. #25

    Re: Will New Trade Deal Come With New Referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    I don't think that is true either, do you just make this stuff up on the spot?
    Thing is, 'higher immigration' could mean anything. It could be a number or percentage comparison with each other, it could be a comparison with itself of the previous year. It could mean compared to the eu average.

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