307 mass shooting

[Gofer Blue]

You didn’t answer my first question.

Sorry, what first question?

[jon1959]

Of course I would. After all I did exactly that! Not sure if at 10 a child is mature enough to make such a decision though?

Mature enough to reject or blindly follow their parents beliefs? As you said to a different point - it works both ways.

My parents were Congregationalists (Roath Park Congregationalist Church originally) - what became the United Reformed Church. I was brought up to go to church, Sunday School and the local scouts. However, when I was 12 I went to a series of church membership evening meetings with half a dozen others my age with the minister at The Manse. These went through the whole gammut of beliefs and practices in the church and the normal outcome was that a few weeks later the group would be accepted into the church at a brief ceremony during the service. After 6 weeks - aged 12 - I decided I was an atheist and never went to church again (until this summer for my dad's funeral). I also left the scouts at that time because of all the god and queen nonsense at the start of each meeting. And just to complete my transformation from a god-following dib-dib-dibber I bought and read The Communist Manifesto.

My brother went through the same thing a little later and turned into a Buddhist.

My Mam and Dad carried on in the church - she as a conformist; he as a self-labelling 'heretic' along with a few of his non-conformist mates. I doubt he ever believed in god or the devil or heaven or hell. The called himself (and others like him) a secular Christian.

Maybe you are right that 10 is too young to form a view on these big issues, but 12 isn't.

[Croesy Blue]

God did nothing about that shooter in the church

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

[TH63]

God did nothing about that shooter in the church

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

I know I'm wasting my time here, but God gives us free choice. Ideally to do good, but some of us also do evil.

That said, I too find it very difficult to reconcile myself with the doctrine when such tragedies happen.

[Mrs Steve R]

He's been replaced by the Snoopers Charter

[Croesy Blue]

Free choice to be infected with aids at birth? Or free choice to get cancer as a child?

[ian gibson]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-suvkwNYSQo

[I.8.POLITICAL.CORRECTNESS]

Mature enough to reject or blindly follow their parents beliefs? As you said to a different point - it works both ways.

My parents were Congregationalists (Roath Park Congregationalist Church originally) - what became the United Reformed Church. I was brought up to go to church, Sunday School and the local scouts. However, when I was 12 I went to a series of church membership evening meetings with half a dozen others my age with the minister at The Manse. These went through the whole gammut of beliefs and practices in the church and the normal outcome was that a few weeks later the group would be accepted into the church at a brief ceremony during the service. After 6 weeks - aged 12 - I decided I was an atheist and never went to church again (until this summer for my dad's funeral). I also left the scouts at that time because of all the god and queen nonsense at the start of each meeting. And just to complete my transformation from a god-following dib-dib-dibber I bought and read The Communist Manifesto.

My brother went through the same thing a little later and turned into a Buddhist.

My Mam and Dad carried on in the church - she as a conformist; he as a self-labelling 'heretic' along with a few of his non-conformist mates. I doubt he ever believed in god or the devil or heaven or hell. The called himself (and others like him) a secular Christian.

Maybe you are right that 10 is too young to form a view on these big issues, but 12 isn't.

a book you may enjoy on the subject Jon by the late Christopher Hitchens
god is not great : how religion poisons everything

[Gofer Blue]

Free choice to be infected with aids at birth? Or free choice to get cancer as a child?

Surely free will relates to something I do as a person? What kind of person would deliberately infect a new-born baby with aids or give a child cancer, certainly not a loving God. If you are asking why would God allow this to happen, well that’s a different question and as I said in an earlier reply that’s one of the first questions I will have when I get to heaven.

For now I reconcile myself to the fact that human beings are incredibly complicated biological machines. If they were non-biological machines of similar complexity then it would be amazing if they never went wrong and didn’t need repairing from time to time, or sadly, reach the stage of being beyond repair.

[Organ Morgan.]

Surely free will relates to something I do as a person? What kind of person would deliberately infect a new-born baby with aids or give a child cancer, certainly not a loving God. If you are asking why would God allow this to happen, well that’s a different question and as I said in an earlier reply that’s one of the first questions I will have when I get to heaven.

For now I reconcile myself to the fact that human beings are incredibly complicated biological machines. If they were non-biological machines of similar complexity then it would be amazing if they never went wrong and didn’t need repairing from time to time, or sadly, reach the stage of being beyond repair.

There's nowt complicated about human beings because they fall into one of two categories. They are either corrupt or corruptible. The corruptible are aged circa four and under.

[Organ Morgan.]

The Yanks are not stupid enough to sacrifice their weapons as they know their number one enemy is their government.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

a book you may enjoy on the subject Jon by the late Christopher Hitchens
god is not great : how religion poisons everything

Superb book

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-suvkwNYSQo

That sums it up very well

If god does exist , he's a complete ****

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Surely free will relates to something I do as a person? What kind of person would deliberately infect a new-born baby with aids or give a child cancer, certainly not a loving God. If you are asking why would God allow this to happen, well that’s a different question and as I said in an earlier reply that’s one of the first questions I will have when I get to heaven.

For now I reconcile myself to the fact that human beings are incredibly complicated biological machines. If they were non-biological machines of similar complexity then it would be amazing if they never went wrong and didn’t need repairing from time to time, or sadly, reach the stage of being beyond repair.

Well kids do get home cancer and die young so clearly god is not loving or omnipresent or all powerful as he allows this to happen

They say his son turned water into wine and fed the 5000 with loaves of bread and fish so surely his father can save young children , stop Hitler and Stalin etc ?

[I.8.POLITICAL.CORRECTNESS]

That sums it up very well

If god does exist , he's a complete ****

Enjoyed that little interview , what a very intelligent man Mr Fry is.
The interviewers face was a picture

[jon1959]

a book you may enjoy on the subject Jon by the late Christopher Hitchens
god is not great : how religion poisons everything

Thanks - it's on my 'to read' list.

[I.8.POLITICAL.CORRECTNESS]

Superb book

The wife got me it last Christmas mate
i agree its a great read
she ordered me one of his other books witch I'm waiting to be delivered
Why ORWELL matters

[Sparticus_Mills]

USA: Where retrospective prayers are preferred to gun control. Says it all.

SO very true, the fact they were gunned down in a church should really dent anyones belief in the power of prayer. The NRA has far too much political power.

[Wales-Bales]

a book you may enjoy on the subject Jon by the late Christopher Hitchens
god is not great : how religion poisons everything

Sapiens : A Brief History of Humankind is also a good book, as it goes right back to the very beggining of human development, and it explains how humans are more likely to believe in fairytales than the cold hard truth. Rulers and politians have been using this knowledge against us for thousands of years.

While we may like to think we are smart because we can now see religion for what it is, the reality is they have developed a whole new bag of tricks which can be used to manipulate us and keep us in line. With the advent of TV, radio and the mass media, religion soon became superfluous to requirements as far more effective methods of control came in being. Religion was also expensive to run, and the clergy wanted a slice of the pie too. They still control huge assets which was payment for keeping the population under surveillance and teaching them how to think and behave, but as an organisation they are pretty much finished.

BTW who do you think it was that first put these ideas into our heads that religion was a load of old tosh?

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Well kids do get home cancer and die young so clearly god is not loving or omnipresent or all powerful as he allows this to happen

They say his son turned water into wine and fed the 5000 with loaves of bread and fish so surely his father can save young children , stop Hitler and Stalin etc ?

It's interesting to note that many nonbelievers on here associate the concept of 'God' with the Abrahamist one, which is perhaps understandable due to the statistics at this point in history. For my part, all gods have the same status.
It is also not without irony that Abrahamism is a wonderful example of schism upon schism and deep enmity between those endless schisms. It seems that the Abrahamism god not only has done nothing for 2,000 years but he can't keep his flock from fracturing and setting themselves against each other.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

It's interesting to note that many nonbelievers on here associate the concept of 'God' with the Abrahamist one, which is perhaps understandable due to the statistics at this point in history. For my part, all gods have the same status.
It is also not without irony that Abrahamism is a wonderful example of schism upon schism and deep enmity between those endless schisms. It seems that the Abrahamism god not only has done nothing for 2,000 years but he can't keep his flock from fracturing and setting themselves against each other.

...and adopting different collections of literature as their guide along the way, of course.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

...and adopting different collections of literature as their guide along the way, of course.

Our book is the truth , no it isnt, ours is !!

[Tokyo Blue]

a book you may enjoy on the subject Jon by the late Christopher Hitchens
god is not great : how religion poisons everything

Awesome book. Hitchens could've made a speech claiming that the grass is blue and the sky is green and I think he might almost sway my views on that. You might say that his political views weren't always popular, but regardless of that he was a great speaker and an intellectual powerhouse. I've spent countless hours watching YouTube videos of him and wishing we still had him here today.

[I.8.POLITICAL.CORRECTNESS]

Sapiens : A Brief History of Humankind is also a good book, as it goes right back to the very beggining of human development, and it explains how humans are more likely to believe in fairytales than the cold hard truth. Rulers and politians have been using this knowledge against us for thousands of years.

While we may like to think we are smart because we can now see religion for what it is, the reality is they have developed a whole new bag of tricks which can be used to manipulate us and keep us in line. With the advent of TV, radio and the mass media, religion soon became superfluous to requirements as far more effective methods of control came in being. Religion was also expensive to run, and the clergy wanted a slice of the pie too. They still control huge assets which was payment for keeping the population under surveillance and teaching them how to think and behave, but as an organisation they are pretty much finished.

BTW who do you think it was that first put these ideas into our heads that religion was a load of old tosh?

Sapiens : A Brief History of Humankind is also a good book, as it goes right back to the very beggining of human development, and it explains how humans are more likely to believe in fairytales than the cold hard truth. Rulers and politians have been using this knowledge against us for thousands of years.

While we may like to think we are smart because we can now see religion for what it is, the reality is they have developed a whole new bag of tricks which can be used to manipulate us and keep us in line. With the advent of TV, radio and the mass media, religion soon became superfluous to requirements as far more effective methods of control came in being. Religion was also expensive to run, and the clergy wanted a slice of the pie too. They still control huge assets which was payment for keeping the population under surveillance and teaching them how to think and behave, but as an organisation they are pretty much finished.

BTW who do you think it was that first put these ideas into our heads that religion was a load of old tosh?

I just had a quick peruse of this review from the guardian
https://www.theguardian.com/books/20...al-noah-harari
that actually looks very interesting Bales Thank you mate
thats going on my Christmas list

your question has kind of stumped me with it being so philosophical
but for me personally it was
my earliest possible memory would be when I was 6 years of age
I had a cream coloured Labrador dog named Sandy.
One winter on a walk over the woods in the snow he ran across the ice on the river the ice broke and he went under and got trapped
firemen even waded in on with a rope attached to them to bring him out gave him the kiss the life
as I prayed for Sandy to be alright , he wasn't he died
then I got slightly older 8 or 9 maybe
and I possibly just did not buy it and religious people always came across as untrustworthy cruel hypocrites I don't think it was an individual or a group of of people generally , something instinctively felt it was a form of control "do this or you will be hurt"
my fathers side of the family my Grandfathers funeral service was last year was a humanist service
my mothers parents they was in a church with mass (optional)
Maybe media,tv ect has had an impact or maybe as you get a bit older you read more literature, get information I don't know,
Wasn't karl Marx that quoted something about religion being the opium to the people (I'm not sure on the exact quote)

what about you mate ?

[I.8.POLITICAL.CORRECTNESS]

Awesome book. Hitchens could've made a speech claiming that the grass is blue and the sky is green and I think he might almost sway my views on that. You might say that his political views weren't always popular, but regardless of that he was a great speaker and an intellectual powerhouse. I've spent countless hours watching YouTube videos of him and wishing we still had him here today.

so so true Blue,
his videos have me in stiches