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According to McDonnell this morning, Venezuela was not a socialist country.
Seumas Milne, now Corbyn’s press wrote ""Venezuela and its Latin American allies have demonstrated it’s no longer necessary to accept a failed economic model, as many social democrats in Europe still do.”
Union boss Len McCluskey saw Venezuela as a country that the rest of us should copy. “Europe might want to learn the obvious lessons from Venezuela,” he said.
Diane Abbott agreed that Venezuela showed “another way” of doing politics
Venezuela is, and has been a terrible advert for socialism, much in the way that capitalism has been stained by the tory governments in the UK, there is no moral high ground to be gained by either IMO, where are the centralistsOriginally Posted by Nick
According to McDonnell this morning, Venezuela was not a socialist country.
This is only true for somebody who knows absolutely nothing about the country nor South America in general. It is a kleptocratic gangster state which has been financially levelled by some of the worst corruption and greed on earth. The idea that socialist principles shouldn't be weaved into our society because 'well, look at Venezuela' is about as dumb an argument as you can find.Venezuela is, and has been a terrible advert for socialism, much in the way that capitalism has been stained by the tory governments in the UK, there is no moral high ground to be gained by either IMO, where are the centralists
If the quote is to be taken in isolation, John McDonnell is quite obviously correct in this instance.
Oh, ffs Eric!
Go on...
That article does a great job of not recognising any corruption within Venezuela thereby rendering it 'incomplete' at best or a complete load of biased rubbish at worst. You think there was no government level corruption and that every penny of the income from Venezuela's vast oil reserves was spent on failed social programmes?
What are your thoughts on Bolivia? They have done a far better job of managing a natural resource boom, undeniably socialist government, not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but strangely doesn't get a mention very often.
My view is pretty simple, the human instinct to be greedy will permeate whatever fantastic ideology anybody thinks they have BUT the idea that you can't have a more equal society than we currently have without imminent doom is fantasy.
You would like socialism Croesy, you would be the one stealing the money and sticking it in the Cayman Islands while everyone starves.
lol
Go on...lol
Also there is quite a key difference between a centralist and centrist
(let me guess it was autocorrect..?)
Are you serious ?Go on...
Also there is quite a key difference between a centralist and centrist
(let me guess it was autocorrect..?)
Yes go on, tear me to pieces...Are you serious ?
Correct.
It is amusing that the Tories still seem to be banging the Venezuela drum. Most of the electorate either couldn't care, or couldn't point to the place on a map.
Always the snide little remarks when you find yourself on the wrong side of an argument. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Wrong side? You have yet to make your argument. Posting an article without comment doesnt pass for an opinion.
Snide remarks? Still hurts a little from when you called me a paedo sympathiser.
There can be no argument, Venezuela is and has been for all recent history a socialist / Communist country. All its leaders in recent years have been socialist / communist - from Betancourt through Chavez and through to Maduro.
Interesting to note there that the richest person in Venezuela is Chavez's daughter, Maria Gabriella Chavez, worth $4.2Billion. Not bad from being the daughter of a president who said being rich is very bad.
Venezuela may well be a gangster state but it is impossible to deny that for many, many years the country has been a socialist / Communist state.
Unfortunately, the likes of you nor your leader can see what he has done to the country. Corbyn tweeted - "Thanks Hugo Chavez for showing that the poor matter and wealth can be shared. He made massive contributions to Venezuela & a very wide world" - I am not sure that the good people of Venezuela quite agree with that view.
The imposition of price controls was an utter failure of policy, driving many, many companies supplying and producing the basics in Venezuela out of business. Socialism has meant that the inflation rate in Venezuela is now 18,000% - EIGHTEEN THOUSAND PERCENT, as the Government continues to print more and more money.
Communism and socialism has been the cause of the demise of Venezuela and will continue to do so. Remember this is the country with the highest known oil reserves in the whole world. Who else but the communists / socialists could have blown that for its own people.
An utter an abject failure.
You haven't mentioned one expensive socialist policy that caused the countries downfall but you have accidentally hit the nail on the head and gone a decent distance to proving me correct so thank you. You are right, almost everyone around Chavez got insanely wealthy. Is it a defined principle of socialism that the people in power gain extraordinary personal wealth? Clearly not, in the same way that theoretically capitalism isn't supposed to leave parts of society destitute as we see in the USA and UK? Nope of course not. Failed implementation is the issue here. The main problem with socialism is it concentrates absolute power and therefore the human instinct to **** everyone else over for your own personal gain is quite straightforward to achieve.
I know you really want to blame this theory because you have been taught to hate equality and intuitively adore the idea of an extreme meritocracy but it's more complicated than one being bad and another being good. What you are doing is no different to blaming 'capitalism' for our problems.
Eric - For your information, I have not been taught to hate equality in any way, shape or form. That is a massive leap of faith from you to suggest that someone has taught me to hate equality. Neither do I support the idea of "Supreme meritocracy" - Again, another massive leap of faith. You appear to love to put words, deeds and thoughts forward on behalf of others!!
Chavez was socialist / Communist as have been the others before him and since him. They have actually not given a flying one about the citizens of their country, much like, in reality, but to a lesser degree, is the case with the socialists and communist now running what used to be the Labour Party. They don't really give a damn about the population in general, all they are concerned about is their ideology, whilst sat in their gilded Islington mansions, whilst their children toddle off to the best Grammar schools and private schools that their money can pay for, whilst sneering at the working classes, as per Thornberry / Lady Nugee from a short while back.
With regards to expensive socialist policies that you say I did not mention, perhaps you should read more closely then, I'd suggest -
"The imposition of price controls was an utter failure of policy, driving many, many companies supplying and producing the basics in Venezuela out of business. Socialism has meant that the inflation rate in Venezuela is now 18,000% - EIGHTEEN THOUSAND PERCENT, as the Government continues to print more and more money."
This together with other policies such as state control of foreign currency exchange, encouraging the black market and with it hyper inflation. Also, as mentioned the Governments decision to constantly print extra money and to regularly increase the minimum wage in the country, leaving the country unable to get credit following previous default on Government bonds and having to continue to print cash further increasing inflation as the value of their money free-falls.
First paragraph - that is rich considering yours and ninianclarks behaviour in the other thread.
Ofgem recently announced price controls within the energy industry. Do we have a socialist government.
All your examples are just proof that the Venezuelan government did a really shit job.
Socialism is defined as a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
Now, can I remind you estimates suggest that hundreds of billions of dollars of oil revenue has gone 'missing' over the past decade and plenty more diverted beforehand. Does that look like a government who is following a socialist model?
Your paragraph about socialist leaders and socialists within the Labour party not being interested in the people they represent is in complete agreement with my point above about intuitive human greed. Can you not see that? People are people whether they describe themselves as socialist or not.
Not everyone is greedy as you are suggesting. It would not have been possible to do what the likes of Chavez has done in other countries.
Have you now managed to read all the bits where I gave examples of expensive socialist policies? Or are you going to conveniently ignore these?
You mentioned price controls, that was it wasn't it?
In the other thread you badgered me for answers to incomplete questions because you felt obliged to stick up for your little chum. He will probably be in here to give you a belly rub shortly.
'That's what they all say but certainly not what they all do' - ah so what you are saying is that the failing in Venezuela is down to people not doing what they said they were going to do. Yes I agree with that because it is exactly what I have been saying for the entire bloody thread.
Badgered you??? I asked you twice. If you consider that to be badgering then I would suggest that you need a little help.
Obliged to stick up for my chum?? I don't know what you are on about. There is certainly nobody on here I even know, let alone consider to be a chum.
What you have said all along is that Venezuela is not a socialist country, which quite blindingly obviously it is. To all but the challenged.
On a broader point and not trying to score points, what is the best model for a communists / socialists country that we could compare or wish to become ,or with power do they simply become the same ego centrist ,greedy , self centered folk, that they accuse the right of becoming?
This is not about left or right. People are selfish and greedy, naturally, biologically! Socialism is theory based on everyone acting in the interests of the group, it can't work without violence and tyranny. Theoretical socialism hasn't been tried anywhere and won't be tried anywhere. Free market doesn't work either, these are economic and political theories.
Nah, no autocorrect, used the wrong word, you got meGo on...
Also there is quite a key difference between a centralist and centrist
(let me guess it was autocorrect..?)
they spoiled, spoilt the South African world cup however.
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