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Think anyone who reads my messages on this board would know which side of the political divide I'm on, but the Labour Party have made a complete and utter mess of this issue.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44875908
I have never been someone who aligns themselves to a political party through thick and thin and I am of neither the left nor the right. However, the Labour party seems to lack a meaningful direction and seem totally inconsequential at a time when the Tories are at their most vulnerable. As for their stance on Brexit.....Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
They have more to lose than gain by actually having a stance. It isn't the first time in UK politics where the opposition have shied away from the difficult questions, they likely won't be judged too harshly for it if history is anything to go by. Like the Brexiteers who promised everything for nothing won't be judged for their phoney rhetoric.
As for the anti-semitism issue. Labour are getting beaten black and blue by it. Looking at BBC article about this the four things that were contoversially left out of the policy are:
- Accusing Jewish people of being more loyal to Israel than their home country
- Claiming that Israel's existence as a state is a racist endeavour
- Requiring higher standards of behaviour from Israel than other nations
- Comparing contemporary Israeli policies to those of the Nazis
1 - Lots of different people get accused of this, will it also be an offence within the Labour party to say that to an Australian or a Pakistani? If anti-semitism is racism and that the conservative party have adopted these rules (as TM said today at PMQ's) then surely the rules need to be applied across all parties and across all nationalities.
2 - stupid vague rubbish, fair enough. I guess this has been left out because Corbyn thinks it is true?
3 - This is kind of thing is frequently thrown at Muslims (that they should openly condemn terrorism) - we expect more of them because of their religion, there wasn't the same uproar then. Both are wrong.
4 - Why can I say Donald Trump is the new Hitler but I can't objectively compare Israeli government policy with German government policy under the Nazi's.
These are just my opinions but I am not sure we are allowed to make our own minds up anymore?
Always voted Labour ,its not just this very divisive decision thats currently puts me off a party I have always heralded. Its as if they are marginalising issues they previously stood.
Margaret Hodge , lost relatives in the Holocaust.
The anti-semitism dispute in the Labour Party is getting me angrier by the day. I'm going to get this off my chest.
We have had loads of debate on this board about it over the past 2 years, and I have moved from shock at the allegations to anger that most of the high profile ones seem to be false or exaggerated, and part of a cynical attack by the anti-Corbyn majority amongst Labour MPs and Peers, most of the media (with the Guardian as chief cheerleader) and a range of Israeli lobby organisations and fronts. There are certainly examples of anti-semitic threats and abuse on social media - thousands of examples - but little I have seen to support claims that Corbyn, or Momemtum, have initiated or encouraged them - quite the opposite. Labour and the left are less infected by anti-semitism than the Tories and the right (despite the racist tropes against Arabs and Muslims used by many commentators). You wouldn't know it from the TV or print media.
The internal soul searching by Labour has been immense. The Chakrabarti Report was wide ranging and considered (unlike the Home Affairs Select Committee fiasco). The Labour Party through its internal disciplinary processes has ramped up the action against members accused of anti-semitism (or when that became untenable, bringing the party into disrepute) and expulsions have been a regular feature - including the purge in June that resulted in expulsions for Marc Wadsworth and Tony Greenstein (I knew both of them a long time ago and they were both principled anti-racist but anti-Zionist campaigners). Tony is Jewish. Both expulsions are scandalous. Livingstone was an idiot (although what he said about German Zionists and the Nazi Regime was nearly true - and he said it responding to a leading journalist question). Jackie Walker (ex vice chair of Momentum) who has Jewish heritage is the next in line and she has probably strayed into a few comments that are unacceptable and untrue - but most of the charge-sheet against her is rubbish. Most of the allegations against Labour students have been shown to be false or malicious, but where genuine they have been expelled.
The anti-Corbyn MPs on the other hand have been given a free ride to accuse, abuse and trash their party as a way of getting at the leader without any significant comeback. Even the latest stuff about Margaret Hodge which is presented as a fast track disciplinary after a complaint about her foul mouthed rant in the Commons chamber came without an accompanying suspension!
The definition of anti-semitism used to be well understood. Then we had the international efforts from early 2005 to 2016 to redefine it in a way that defined opposition to the political ideology of Zionism as anti-semitic, and because the Israeli state is founded on that ideology, to equate many cases of opposition to Israeli government actions as anti-semitic - all of which found their way into the recycled 'working definition' that was adopted by the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance (IHRA). A lot of national governments and agencies then endorsed or adopted the wording (encouraged by Israel and the USA) including the UK government and a raft of agencies and local councils.
The definition is poorly written and the illustrative examples were originally heavily qualified to include context. The UK government ditched the context bits and now it has become (a rambling and vague working document) the touchstone of anti-semitism. Labour has actually adopted the flawed main text into its new Code of Conduct and kept most of the examples unchanged. Those it hasn't have been rewritten to make them clearer, more usable and also to bring back the original idea that context will affect judgements. Personally I think it has already gone too far in accepting that Israel operates as a 'normal' liberal democracy and that Zionism is an integral part of Jewish identity that cannot be questioned. Given recent comments by John McDonnell I expect the Labour Party NEC to cave in and adopt the whole IHRA definition with every dot, comma and spelling mistake untouched in September. It will be a victory for the state of Israel (now this week even more clearly shown to be a racist, apartheid state - not an inclusive liberal democracy) and a defeat for those genuinely trying to defeat racism and anti-semitism, and a further tragedy for the Palestinians.
Whilst internationally this is mainly about the legitimacy or otherwise of Israeli actions and as an afterthought the safety and security of Jewish people wherever they live, in the UK it is almost wholly about the co-ordinated campaign to undermine and remove Corbyn. The Labour Party has allowed itself to implode around the issue (which may be the idea for some) and the leadership has been indecisive and weak. The NEC are holding onto their slightly better Code wording whilst the disciplinary panel is carrying out a fast-track witch hunt against pro-Palestinian rights campaigners. Meanwhile Labour is hamstrung in the face of a Brexit debacle and giving the Tories a very easy ride with everything else. And Labour's relationship with many of the UK Jewish communities and organisations (but not all) has taken a nose dive too - as was bound to happen with the way the issue has been spun.
What a criminal mess.
Margaret Hodge outburst was not a conspiracy , it was personal rage directed at the leader of the party, that we know has institutional problems on this matter , her relatives were German Jews .
These enquiries suspensions ,and social media comments are not conspiracies , nor is the enquiry they had to have, nor is the need to meet with Jewish groups to establish the core of the problem , nor is the reason by the NEC too alter its ant semitsim interpretation from one that most apply and abide by around the world .
You may know that the Labour Party has 'institutional' anti-semitic problems, but I don't. I haven't seen it from the inside for a while - I left the Labour Party 4 years ago - but I have followed the story very closely. All of the evidence I have seen says that Labour has less of a problem than other main parties, and has done much more to tackle it. The perception is different of course. Perception has its own reality, and the relationship between Labour and parts of the UK Jewish community is now toxic.
There are anti-semites in the Labour Party like in all parties, and there are thousands of racist creeps out there who will abuse and threaten people on social media - including Jewish Labour MPs - but I haven't seen any evidence to convince me that this comes from Jeremy Corbyn or Momentum. The opposite in fact. My problem with Corbyn is weak leadership which means he is backing off his principled position in the face of the PLP and media onslaught, but still getting smeared - the worst of all worlds.
I don't normally do conspiracies. I am convinced that cock ups explain most events. But in this case I am 100% convinced that the whole move to redefine anti-semitism internationally (to conflate it with criticism of Israel) has been pushed by Israel in response to successes of the BDS movement. I am convinced that some of the black and Jewish Labour members who have been expelled (like Wadsworth and Greenstein) are victims of an internal witch hunt. I am also convinced that the charge of anti-semitism has been weaponised to attack Corbyn. You may know Margaret Hodge and her motivations better than me. I know she lost family in the holocaust (as have many on the other side of the argument) and I'm sure she is upset, but she is also one of the leaders of the Get Corbyn campaign who initiated the PLP no confidence vote that sparked the Owen Smith challenge.
But to go back to the OP - whilst Labour tears itself apart with Part X of its civil war, there is no effective opposition in Parliament.
Your last paragraph is a big real issue, its almost as if through dogmatic choice the Labour party is unwilling to soften its approach on a number of issues and it's new ideology is its own downfall and barrier.
So many decent Labour MP's seem marginalised over this and many other issues such as Russia, Trident, Free Movement,Brexit to name a few, its a worry , as I see core voters responding to a more centralist social agenda .
Compromise is a good thing .
I had a crazy thought the other day if Labour backed May to get us over this fudged Brexit they could be in power as they would be seen as the compromise party . The deal is nearer their view ,than the right loops, of the Tory party.
I'm sniffing a general election anyway, very soon ,watch this space .
Fix the fudge by implementing a fudged deal that absolutely nobody wants?
Russia, trident, free movement, brexit? Some flesh on those bones please otherwise it is just regurgitated rubbish
Well done, you have just described the playbook used to stop leaders being elected who don't have the establishment stamp of approval. I think it goes well beyond the wranglings of a particular party, and you will find there are other actors involved. A good case study is currently underway in America, where all of the dark arts are slowly being revealed. I doubt if this is a new phenomenon either, these methods have been used before.
UN estimates current world population at 7.6 billion people: https://www.un.org/development/desa/...-revision.html
Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics (CBS) estimate 14.5 million of them are Jews: https://www.nst.com.my/world/2018/04...million-israel
The last sentence found at the above article is interesting: 'The CBS said their definition of a Jew included "persons who define themselves as Jewish, or persons of Jewish parentage with no current religious or ethnic identity". Taking its and the UN numbers as gospel then around one in every 528 people alive today is a Jew... an astonishingly low number given that anyone can self-identify as a Jew according to the CBS itself.
Not one of the 14.5 million are descendants of Biblical Jews because the Romans killed every last one of them. To put it another way, they're all impostors.
It must be sheer coincidence that the state of Israel is mentioned in each of those four points....
I think there is a general dislike of Jews,not just reading these types of posts but in life generally.
Bugger all to do with Israel and it's nasty protectionism, hey perhaps that's why they are like they are , hatred ?
This has nothing to do with the 'dislike of jews' and everything to do with censorship and a worrying slow slide towards living in a country where for making a clumsy ill-informed comparison involving the Israeli government, instead of being labelled a wally you will be labelled anti-semitic. The implications a label like this has on your life could be significant.
A definition lacking clarity will always mean punishment being dished out inconsistently. The 'examples' are intended to clear it up but they just muddy the water by contradicting each other.
I'm actually saying it exists in a broader way , through my life time , I've known bad humor , grave desecration , slogans/murals on walls on walls , abuse in the streets if they wear there gear in the open , comments of how tight they are ,or how rich they have become , it all sees like an envy culture , and now we see the social media outpourings , some of which are dreadful on a humane level.
Sorry Eric I do think there is an ingrained hatred of Jews in politics and beyond , Political Parties whoever they are, should be beyond this , as they should represent every culture or person , honest question Eric , are they ???? .
The Guardian has been the most consistent paper pushing the anti-Corbyn agenda (from a Blairite/Remainer stance) and promoting the antisemitism claims (including giving a platform to every critic they can find with very few alternative voices).
However today they have published a very interesting panel opinion piece on the IHRC definition of antisemitism. I almost missed it amongst the usual daily diet of Corbyn-bashing articles, but it is well worth a read to understand why Labour has resisted (so far) signing up to every last dot and comma to make it go away.
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...jewish-writers
The Free Speech On Israel website it also a useful corrective to most reporting on this issue:
http://freespeechonisrael.org.uk/abo....4xYjVrqu.dpbs
People are mean and they should be prosecuted for anything that breaks the law. Anti semitism is racism and therefore was already covered by our legal system.
Do you want people prosecuted for 'bad humour'?
What is the end game here? If you just want everyone to be courteous and nice then a) it isnt going to happen and b) laws telling people to do that don't have the desired effect.
How well do you know the journalism game? Not all journalists are what you think they are.
No I dont people prosecuted for 'bad humour'? however doing by saying it is institutional racism ,their is a lot of humor no one goes near as it crosses many racist /sexist boundaries ,and you seem to have missed the other categories , there relatives went through unimaginable horror, and I guess deserve a bit more slack as a consequence,in fact I simply dont understand how any of this exists ,its not a minority either.,trouble is now if you right anything about antisemitism ,everyone assumes your digging at Corbyn ,well Im not , not sure about some of his party members though
What do I think they are?
Biased for starters.
This is definitely the actions of a well meaning campaign to clean up bigotry and not a big pantomime performance to get rid of a leader.
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