America again.

[Wales-Bales]

What evidence do you have that Trump has anything approximating a strategy. Despite regular suggestions from some quarters that he is the Gary Kasparov of 4d chess all the evidence suggests that he lives off his instincts. How else can you explain his ability to read Presidential statements prepared for him from a teleprompter and ad-lib something venal and contradictory a few hours later.

For a start Trump is a sideshow, he's not the main event.

[cyril evans awaydays]

For a start Trump is a sideshow, he's not the main event.

Sounds fantastic insight. Care to explain.

[Bluebirdman Of Alcathays]

Both sides are at it, and it's not just in America, you only need to look at Brexit, and around Europe to see parallels. I believe we have reached a crossroads, and what we are now witnessing is an ideological war being played out amongst opposing factions of elites from around the world.

One of the things that fuels the media narrative, of course, is sensationalism. With the rise of social media we got the democratisation of sensationalism - for instance, people on a football forum suggesting the news media are a disgrace and believing we are in an ideological war. What happened to the fact based narrative? Seems like we all like a dramatic story.

[Croesy Blue]

I put him ignore a long time ago, he’s a genuine lunatic with issues. Talks nothing but bollocks and has never added anything worthwhile to a debate.

The very type of person who gets taken in by trump, Fox News and their conspiracy nonsense.

[Wales-Bales]

One of the things that fuels the media narrative, of course, is sensationalism. With the rise of social media we got the democratisation of sensationalism - for instance, people on a football forum suggesting the news media are a disgrace and believing we are in an ideological war. What happened to the fact based narrative? Seems like we all like a dramatic story.

We are living in interesting times, when last was there such political turmoil everywhere you look? Even Merkel is standing down from her party role. Regarding the media, I'm going to double down, they are players in everything that is going on right now.

[Wales-Bales]

I put him ignore a long time ago, he’s a genuine lunatic with issues. Talks nothing but bollocks and has never added anything worthwhile to a debate.

The very type of person who gets taken in by trump, Fox News and their conspiracy nonsense.

I contributed Operation Crossfire Hurricane being more to damaging to the perception of democracy than anything Trump has done. What have you contributed besides blah-blah about Fox News and their conspiracy nonsense?

[cyril evans awaydays]

We are living in interesting times, when last was there such political turmoil everywhere you look? Even Merkel is standing down from her party role. Regarding the media, I'm going to double down, they are players in everything that is going on right now.

Gosh, doubling down on I quote "they are players in everything that is going on right now". You couldn't be a bit more vague could you?

[Wales-Bales]

Gosh, doubling down on I quote "they are players in everything that is going on right now". You couldn't be a bit more vague could you?

Is Trump Russia Collusion real or was it a setup? At the end of the day this it what it's all about, everything else is window-dressing.

[cyril evans awaydays]

Is Trump Russia Collusion real or was it a setup? At the end of the day this it what it's all about, everything else is window-dressing.

Ok - the media are supposedly complicit in the Trump Russia Collusion (thought that was a special investigation initiated by Trump appointees but hey-ho). That just leaves everything else that is going on right now to explain!

[Wales-Bales]

Ok - the media are supposedly complicit in the Trump Russia Collusion (thought that was a special investigation initiated by Trump appointees but hey-ho). That just leaves everything else that is going on right now to explain!

The hysteria we are witnessing now is all connected to that investigation. There are two possible outcomes, so it will be interesting to see which one is correct. Until then it's pointless discussing it, as everybody has such a polarised viewpoint regarding what went on.

[cyril evans awaydays]

The hysteria we are witnessing now is all connected to that investigation. There are two possible outcomes, so it will be interesting to see which one is correct. Until then it's pointless discussing it, as everybody has such a polarised viewpoint regarding what went on.

Don't let polarised views stop you setting out your evidence, (in the unlikely event that you have any). So given that you have nothing concrete on " For a start Trump is a sideshow, he's not the main event" or "they are players in everything that is going on right now" then give "The hysteria we are witnessing now is all connected to that investigation" a go!

[A Quiet Monkfish]

Apparently, the man who shot all of those people a few days ago sees Trump as part of the problem - he has not gone far enough in his opinion. So, in my view, to say that Trump is directly to blame for the shootings would be wrong, but indirectly to blame? I think that's different.

When I started this thread, I wondered whether I should put it on the politics board, but decided not to because I thought of the various shootings at schools in America down the years which did not appear to have a political motive behind them, but the way this thread has developed shows that I got it wrong - in these days it seems almost everything is political.

The Trump apologists in this thread (they can't stand him as a man of course) use the old excuse that the apparent perpetrators of the pipe bombs sent to individuals who have been critical of Donald Trump plan and the synagogue shootings are mentally unstable. To the extent that it looks downright odd to plaster your van in posters which would make you look guilty and to advertise what you were going to do on line, these actions, along with the intention to kill of course, do not mark either of them down as sane men.

In the interests of fairness, it should also be pointed out that not all politically motivated killers come from the right, but this article shows that in the last quarter of century in America there have been much more killings from the political right than there have been from the left.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspi...s-on-u-s-soil/

As for Donald Trump, I for one, find the implication carried by the "just blame it all on Trump" line insulting because it seems to me that it carries the assumption that critics of the man were unaware of him until he decided to run for President - that's not true in my case, I despised Donald Trump for all sorts of reasons for a couple of decades before that happened.

In my opinion, Trump cannot escape blame for what we've seen in America from Cesar Sayoc and Robert Bowers because he uses wholly inappropriate language for someone in the position of great power and influence he finds himself in. In my lifetime, the President of America I can remember who comes closest to comparing to Trump in character is Richard Nixon - in some ways, such a comparison is unfair on Trump mind because he has not been found guilty of the sort of criminal activities Nixon was. However, I saw a programme over the weekend where it was said that Nixon had his mind changed over the Vietnam war when he left the White House to discuss that situation with anti war protesters who were outside the Presidential residence - I find it impossible to believe that Trump would even contemplate doing such a thing.

Trump is unyielding in his opinions and gives no impression whatsoever that he could ever be talked around to a differing viewpoint on the core issues of his Presidency. One of the dangers of this approach is that weak and insecure people (nearly always men) can feel emboldened by such certainty as it helps to create a climate whereby potentially awful thoughts become transformed into actual deeds. We saw something similar in this country with the murder of Jo Cox during the referendum campaign two years ago and how anyone could be shocked by the rise in hate crime following that vote is beyond me given the tone used by some during that campaign.

Trump is either unaware of or doesn't care about the consequences which might follow from some of the things he says - to me, that marks him down as a dangerous and divisive man.

So it is about politics then, and shouldn't be on this board.

I'll get my point in anyway, which is this. Whether it's a muslim in a Ford Escort running down innocent pedestrians or this bloke in Canada, they all have one thing in common. They're high on drugs and consequently raving mad. Trump or Isis have nothing to do with it..

[Wales-Bales]

Don't let polarised views stop you setting out your evidence, (in the unlikely event that you have any). So given that you have nothing concrete on " For a start Trump is a sideshow, he's not the main event" or "they are players in everything that is going on right now" then give "The hysteria we are witnessing now is all connected to that investigation" a go!

To put it very simply, if it was a setup then the media are involved, and that would be the same media who have driven the anti-Trump hysteria since day one.

[life on mars]

Society created Trump?? You will have to explain that one.

Its just my simple view, over the years I've seen peoples behaviors develop and change depending on how they are treated by society or how they treat society , some like Trump become very focused, and believe in their way and only their way , that is then reinforced by others who join him and equally share their narrow views , that then becomes a focal point and ideology, which some in society adopts and apply to their lives , it then shapes the direction of politics , by either becoming a follower, supporting ,building and selling to others in society their narrow views, then all of a sudden they are in power, therefore in my humble view , yes ,created by society .

[life on mars]

What evidence do you have that Trump has anything approximating a strategy. Despite regular suggestions from some quarters that he is the Gary Kasparov of 4d chess all the evidence suggests that he lives off his instincts. How else can you explain his ability to read Presidential statements prepared for him from a teleprompter and ad-lib something venal and contradictory a few hours later.

Trump is simply a clever divisive man, he's got a lot of folk jumping around .

[cyril evans awaydays]

Good luck with that.

You weren't wrong!

[blue matt]

This is the stupidest thing I’ve ever seen. You go to Florida to a ****ing theme park resort and act like you’ve got the feel of a whole country. It’s like going to Disney land Paris and thinking you’ve got an idea of the situation in the Ukraine because you’ve chatted to a few holiday makers by the pool.

Oh Go on then, you must need some attention of me again, its sweet and all that, i guess i should feel flattered

I will run with it

i have been over to the states a few times since hes been in power and its either people support him strongly or despise him with the same strength.

Have to agree, having spent the last month in the States.
There is little middle ground regarding Trump. Very few see him for what he's actually achieving, balanced against any actual negatives.
Most can either see him do no wrong or do no right.

I spent Aug in the US, from chatting to people in the pool or in a queue for a ride, it seems as you said, most Love or Hate him, nothing between , Trump supporters were always keen to tell you how much change he will make, Trump haters just wanted a Oversea's opinion on him and to point out that they were embarrassed by him

So i was agreeing with JDerrida who was agreeing with Steve Davis, yet you felt the need to challenge my post ? ? its nice and all that, but you really need to move on now how ever did you cope in Aug when i didnt post

But lets address the points you made

Yes I did go to Disney world, At no point did i state i " got the feel of the whole country "
What i said ( and you can re-read it, but do it slowly, you might understand it )
from chatting to people in the pool or in a queue for a ride, it seems as you said, most Love or Hate him, nothing between

Now these people i spoke to in the lines for rides or at the pool, were guess what, yes Americans, the demographic spread is massive at disney world, but a very high % are american, we find that when you are stood in front or behind someone in a line for a ride for 10 mins plus, they overhear our accents and often ask " Hey, where you guys from " then you get chatting, most Americans we spoke to were keen to discuss Trump, as i said, to either defend him or point out he was not the man they wanted


your analogy about disneyland paris and the situation in the Ukraine is farcical, But you knew that anyway
afterall, speaking to Americans in the US is not overly far fetched

Glad to have cleared that up for you

[blue matt]

Apparently, the man who shot all of those people a few days ago sees Trump as part of the problem - he has not gone far enough in his opinion. So, in my view, to say that Trump is directly to blame for the shootings would be wrong, but indirectly to blame? I think that's different.

When I started this thread, I wondered whether I should put it on the politics board, but decided not to because I thought of the various shootings at schools in America down the years which did not appear to have a political motive behind them, but the way this thread has developed shows that I got it wrong - in these days it seems almost everything is political.

The Trump apologists in this thread (they can't stand him as a man of course) use the old excuse that the apparent perpetrators of the pipe bombs sent to individuals who have been critical of Donald Trump plan and the synagogue shootings are mentally unstable. To the extent that it looks downright odd to plaster your van in posters which would make you look guilty and to advertise what you were going to do on line, these actions, along with the intention to kill of course, do not mark either of them down as sane men.

In the interests of fairness, it should also be pointed out that not all politically motivated killers come from the right, but this article shows that in the last quarter of century in America there have been much more killings from the political right than there have been from the left.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspi...s-on-u-s-soil/

As for Donald Trump, I for one, find the implication carried by the "just blame it all on Trump" line insulting because it seems to me that it carries the assumption that critics of the man were unaware of him until he decided to run for President - that's not true in my case, I despised Donald Trump for all sorts of reasons for a couple of decades before that happened.

In my opinion, Trump cannot escape blame for what we've seen in America from Cesar Sayoc and Robert Bowers because he uses wholly inappropriate language for someone in the position of great power and influence he finds himself in. In my lifetime, the President of America I can remember who comes closest to comparing to Trump in character is Richard Nixon - in some ways, such a comparison is unfair on Trump mind because he has not been found guilty of the sort of criminal activities Nixon was. However, I saw a programme over the weekend where it was said that Nixon had his mind changed over the Vietnam war when he left the White House to discuss that situation with anti war protesters who were outside the Presidential residence - I find it impossible to believe that Trump would even contemplate doing such a thing.

Trump is unyielding in his opinions and gives no impression whatsoever that he could ever be talked around to a differing viewpoint on the core issues of his Presidency. One of the dangers of this approach is that weak and insecure people (nearly always men) can feel emboldened by such certainty as it helps to create a climate whereby potentially awful thoughts become transformed into actual deeds. We saw something similar in this country with the murder of Jo Cox during the referendum campaign two years ago and how anyone could be shocked by the rise in hate crime following that vote is beyond me given the tone used by some during that campaign.

Trump is either unaware of or doesn't care about the consequences which might follow from some of the things he says - to me, that marks him down as a dangerous and divisive man.

you say that Trump is indirectly to blame, that might be the case

then go on a anti trump rant and blame him for other things

Speaking to Americans at the time of the elections ( yes in disney again ) his supporters saw trump as a chance to change things, the political system in the us was just voting for the same old same old, people thought that trump might break that up a little

Of course the guy is a idiot, yes is he also dividing the US again, imho the US has always been divided, The north and south divide has always been apparent, The US has a massive rich and poor issue, One thing Trump is doing well is appealing to his supporters, they still appear to feel his is one of them, he is, he is not part of the old political establishment

[StraightOuttaCanton]

My headquarters are in Minnesota

Most of my colleagues believe the economic growth in the US was just a continuation of the Obama policies and while give trump credit for continuing them wonder why a 14% cut in corporation tax was needed... the economy was already stimulated!

Adding 1.7 trillion dollars onto the deficit on an already stable and growing economy seems barmy. Especially when 90% of savings has gone to buying back shares in their own corporations. While the stock market has that kind of movement the markets react well .. but it’s all based on a deficit

Additionally you have a republican president giving hand outs to farmers, a trationaly no-no for republicans and lambasted by republicans when democratic administrations done similar things as ‘socialism’

To service the deficit the administration are attempting to cut social welfare funds

The whole trump economic success is based on a lie and a seeking out the poorest of the poor

Non partisan world economic experts expect a major US recession as the country comes to terms with a huge deficit, tax cuts that will not increase the working wages in line with inflation, trade wars that will eventually see jobs being lost and corporations gaining more and more power.

Time will tell but the economic arguments for trump seem very short sighted

It’s a generalization at a high level but don’t people have a very short sighted view of their own personal economic position?

[StraightOuttaCanton]

This is just not true, the economy recovered under Obama and it continues under Trump. However, after Tump's new tax laws it's the corporations and the people at the top who see most of the money. Healthcare is becoming more expenisive, petrol is over a dollr more a gallon than it was 2 years ago, social programs are being cut, regulations have been slashed in the name of of job creation but it's really in the name of corporate profits. Poluted rivers, selling goverment land to energy companies. Private prisons. Even detaining immigants. ($745 per person per day to private companies on the taxpayers dime) It's all a huge con.

If the election happened again tomorrow middle America would deliver the same result.

The NE would be an outlier

[JDerrida]

There's no doubt elements of the media push a narrative that will help them (more often that not it's the right that does this) but to suggest they're all a disgrace is disingenuous and misleading, and recently has become dangerous. If we were to have a purely fact based narrative a calmer voice is necessary.

In the States, it's more like 90% favouring the left.

They call it 'spinfluence'.

Because people already have the perception of Trump, they will believe 'anything' that is put out by the media.

Some of the comments on here attributed to Trump are just untrue or exaggeration. Obviously some true.

I am no Trump supporter, but do like to see and seek the truth. I don't just accept what is being said about someone I dislike, just because of a blind bias.

I can't stand the man since he allegedly bribed the Scottish Parliament, to accept his request to buy land for his golf courses on the East coast of Scotland.

The Scottish Parliament and he and his actions around this stank very badly and how he treated local people near the golf course location was appalling. He's a bully.

I certainly made a mistake about the disgusting human being that killed those poor people at the Synagogue. He is ultra right wing.

[the other bob wilson]

In the States, it's more like 90% favouring the left.

They call it 'spinfluence'.

Because people already have the perception of Trump, they will believe 'anything' that is put out by the media.

Some of the comments on here attributed to Trump are just untrue or exaggeration. Obviously some true.

I am no Trump supporter, but do like to see and seek the truth. I don't just accept what is being said about someone I dislike, just because of a blind bias.

I can't stand the man since he allegedly bribed the Scottish Parliament, to accept his request to buy land for his golf courses on the East coast of Scotland.

The Scottish Parliament and he and his actions around this stank very badly and how he treated local people near the golf course location was appalling. He's a bully.

I certainly made a mistake about the disgusting human being that killed those poor people at the Synagogue. He is ultra right wing.

Trouble is, so much of what makes people judge Trump the way they do comes from his own mouth. As I said earlier in this thread, I despised Trump in the nineties and noughties when I didn't have a clue what his politics were. True, I don't like his politics now I'm aware of them, but my original dislike of the man had nothing to do with left or right, it was down to the type of person he is - it's strange, but I just can't stand obnoxious, egotistical boors.

Also, do you have anything in the form of proper evidence to back up your contention that 90% of the media in America favours the "left"?

[the other bob wilson]

If the election happened again tomorrow middle America would deliver the same result.

The NE would be an outlier

What? The person who got three million votes more (more that twice the margin leave won by in the Referendum) than the other contender would lose ?

[Wales-Bales]

And again today, Trump is tweeting that the Fake News Media are the true Enemy of the People. Continuing to fan the flames as best he can because it suits him.

Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump

The Fake News is doing everything in their power to blame Republicans, Conservatives and me for the division and hatred that has been going on for so long in our Country. Actually, it is their Fake & Dishonest reporting which is causing problems far greater than they understand! There is great anger in our Country caused in part by inaccurate, and even fraudulent, reporting of the news. The Fake News Media, the true Enemy of the People, must stop the open & obvious hostility & report the news accurately & fairly. That will do much to put out the flame of Anger and Outrage and we will then be able to bring all sides together in Peace and Harmony. Fake News Must End!

5:12 pm - 28 Oct 2018

[Wales-Bales]

Trump has a point. Fake news lardy was continually spreading discord by pumping out fake news Trump Russia Collusion propaganda on a daily basis, and most people on here believed it!