What is my Political stance ?

[chris lee]

Hi there, my first post on the politics board.

In the last few years I have started to take a keen interest in politics but I do not find myself aligned with any of the current party's or politicians viewpoints. I have outlined a few of my general thoughts below and I am genuinely curios to see if you believe I have a completely poor ill-educated mish mash of points, or if there is an actual sub culture of philosophy that I reasonably fit into.

I have always believed myself to be a liberal person, certainly culturally, believe in gay rights, non discrimination, religious freedom.

I come from a working class background, and would always fight in the corner of the working class man or women.

However I feel that for true liberal progression and to provide opportunity and choice and freedom to the working class, this is achieved by breaking down power structures and layers, however liberal's and the left often support big government, regulation, high taxes, trade unions as a way to to keep the rich in check and to stop wealth monopoly.

This just seems to me to exacerbate the problem, for example the financial crisis, was caused by banks taking huge financial risks, with little regard for everyone else, because they knew (rightly so) that the government would guarantee personal accounts and bail the banks out.

I have since heard people argue, that a true conservative capitalist position would be to have let them fail, do not have government involvement in regulating banking at all, this would have devastated the sector, and they would have never taken those risks, less regulation and and truly free market, would increase competition towards being the safest and most secure banks for their clients. but instead people ask for more regulation and control of banking

I guess the point I am trying to make above is surely, a really true capitalist society (which we have never really had, america got the closest which happened to coincide with its crazy boom years) with low regulation, no minimum wage, low taxes. This is all seen as right wing conservative thought, but it would in my view actually be of most benefit to the working class, we would have much stronger labour choices, cheaper prices due to less bureaucracy and most importantly freedom to choose to spend our money in the best way we feel fit for ourselves.

I find it weird that, working people hand over so much money for the government to spend it as they feel fit for us, meanwhile employing tens of thousands of government workers on great salary's and pension benefits, it is just a whole level disrupting and slowing down free market economics.

So far I understand that much of this sounds like an average conservative viewpoint, but then why is conservative viewpoints regards as against the working class, I see the exact opposite, breaking down structures of the elite and taking power and influence away is going to help stop the the top 1% and big business influencing policy and keeping the rich, rich.

Now this is where I differ lots of working class / left people seem to be fighting against inequality by blaming capitalism and turning more towards socialist politics, but my understand of socialism and democrats is they seem to want to control business via regulation and high tax's in order to control the economy and stop exploitation, now unless my history is wrong, that is basically what fascism is? my goodness the Nazi's were literally called the national socialist party.

So I still do not understand why conservative thoughts like I myself hold get called fascists by the progressive, Surely the way to stop the threat of fascism in not to encourage nationalisation of business and give more power to the government.

In summary I just feel that lots of politics just seems arse backwards, a good example of this is brexit (whatever your opinion lets not debate that) but the paradox I see with EU, is that remain is supported hugely by politicians on the left, but yet the biggest votes for leave are amongst traditional labour communities, you can flip it upside down or take it back 20 years and you can just as easily have torries supporting remain, because they see it as reducing tariffs and obstacles for big business to grow and get rich, and the labour voters not liking the fact it benefits big business and we have hundreds of already rich highly educated mep's flying back and forth Brussels sitting in pointless chamber meetings collecting huge salaries, pensions and expenses.

In final summary, maybe lets give true free market, Libertarianism , small government a go, the closest anyway has ever come to it, was the Americans back in the day, it is created the worlds most powerful nation and turned a significant proportion of the working american into a brand new middle class. There are some people calling for it and it me it makes sense, it just seems strange that I come to it from what I believe is a leftist perspective.



P.S It is important to say some of my views are derived from Peter Schiff at occupy wall street, the video is below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RY0R0NpIdQQ

[the other bob wilson]

I don't know how old you are, but you sound like someone who is making/has made the common left to right progression that effects so many as they go into their middle ages and beyond.

Others will say I'm wrong, but I'm proud to have maintained the left wing credentials of my youth into my sixties and so I come at things in a completely different way to you in one important respect.

For me, deregulation lay at the heart of the 2008 crash as Conservative and Labour Governments showed a laissez-faire attitude towards financial institutions which resulted in the hardly surprising endorsement of what for me is a standard belief - some rich people and companies will do all they can to get richer if allowed to, even if it means going outside the laws of the time.

All of this "small government" stuff is, in essence, an attempt to provide more for those who already have it - regulation is necessary in some quarters, because those the rules are aimed at have shown that they are incapable of looking after the interests of anyone else but themselves when left to their own devices.

[life on mars]

I agree with TOBW where folk as they age, and I'm one , leave some lefty credentials behind , as I've matured and understood the world has a broader view ,theirare a lot us in the UK that require a third way .

I took an on line test once about all things political and came out as a Social Conservative / Democrat eeek .


I generally think the old Tory world of the awful Thatcher years and before have gone , they are more socially minded, but not enough in my view . I think that battle rages within the Tory party and in the country as a whole, as most want a social caring country , however that has to come with a firm balance of what/how we fund , how efficiently we allocate it , and regulate its distribution, ensuring its not wasted by inflated management / sundry spends , as I believe tax payers are happy to pay if they get the correct values and not poor management and outputs .

I'm sure I will get the usual insults after posting this suggesting I'm a Tory , because I actual challenge behaviours , and don't sit comfortable with the current Labour party views and behaviours .


Its a pity the coalition has gone, as I thought some good stuff came from that , like the triple lock , deficit halved as a share of GDP ,giving full control to folks pension pot , same sex marriage , downside was NHS /social care funding ,Universal Credit .


Great post Chris Lee ,nice to see some other views, it can be lonely on here , luckily I can manage it , lol ,

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Socialist till I die , like my father and grandfather

The Tories are the friends of the rich and privileged

The person I would like to leather most is the working class take Gary Barlow from take that , the epitome of scum

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

I agree with TOBW where folk as they age, and I'm one , leave some lefty credentials behind , as I've matured and understood the world has a broader view ,theirare a lot us in the UK that require a third way .

I took an on line test once about all things political and came out as a Social Conservative / Democrat eeek .


I generally think the old Tory world of the awful Thatcher years and before have gone , they are more socially minded, but not enough in my view . I think that battle rages within the Tory party and in the country as a whole, as most want a social caring country , however that has to come with a firm balance of what/how we fund , how efficiently we allocate it , and regulate its distribution, ensuring its not wasted by inflated management / sundry spends , as I believe tax payers are happy to pay if they get the correct values and not poor management and outputs .

I'm sure I will get the usual insults after posting this suggesting I'm a Tory , because I actual challenge behaviours , and don't sit comfortable with the current Labour party views and behaviours .


Its a pity the coalition has gone, as I thought some good stuff came from that , like the triple lock , deficit halved as a share of GDP ,giving full control to folks pension pot , same sex marriage , downside was NHS /social care funding ,Universal Credit .


Great post Chris Lee ,nice to see some other views, it can be lonely on here , luckily I can manage it , lol ,

This Tory party is more right wing than Thatcher , no question at all

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

This Tory party is more right wing than Thatcher , no question at all

I am middle aged and I am more left wing than I have ever been , some of us can see what's going on with this Tory scum

[Wales-Bales]

This Tory party is more right wing than Thatcher , no question at all

The Tory party are not the right party to deliver what the OP is suggesting, and the Labour party are not the right party to deliver socialism. The current political system needs a reset, a new way of doing things.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

The Tory party are not the right party to deliver what the OP is suggesting, and the Labour party are not the right party to deliver socialism. The current political system needs a reset, a new way of doing things.

Indeed it does ......the socialist Labour party .......I would vote for them ........Corbyn is a chicken shit conformist

[the other bob wilson]

I agree with TOBW where folk as they age, and I'm one , leave some lefty credentials behind , as I've matured and understood the world has a broader view ,theirare a lot us in the UK that require a third way .

I took an on line test once about all things political and came out as a Social Conservative / Democrat eeek .


I generally think the old Tory world of the awful Thatcher years and before have gone , they are more socially minded, but not enough in my view . I think that battle rages within the Tory party and in the country as a whole, as most want a social caring country , however that has to come with a firm balance of what/how we fund , how efficiently we allocate it , and regulate its distribution, ensuring its not wasted by inflated management / sundry spends , as I believe tax payers are happy to pay if they get the correct values and not poor management and outputs .

I'm sure I will get the usual insults after posting this suggesting I'm a Tory , because I actual challenge behaviours , and don't sit comfortable with the current Labour party views and behaviours .


Its a pity the coalition has gone, as I thought some good stuff came from that , like the triple lock , deficit halved as a share of GDP ,giving full control to folks pension pot , same sex marriage , downside was NHS /social care funding ,Universal Credit .


Great post Chris Lee ,nice to see some other views, it can be lonely on here , luckily I can manage it , lol ,

Here's a Tory (or a Tory sympathiser) who doesn't agree with you it seems.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...pellent-brexit

[chris lee]

I don't know how old you are, but you sound like someone who is making/has made the common left to right progression that effects so many as they go into their middle ages and beyond.

Others will say I'm wrong, but I'm proud to have maintained the left wing credentials of my youth into my sixties and so I come at things in a completely different way to you in one important respect.

For me, deregulation lay at the heart of the 2008 crash as Conservative and Labour Governments showed a laissez-faire attitude towards financial institutions which resulted in the hardly surprising endorsement of what for me is a standard belief - some rich people and companies will do all they can to get richer if allowed to, even if it means going outside the laws of the time.

All of this "small government" stuff is, in essence, an attempt to provide more for those who already have it - regulation is necessary in some quarters, because those the rules are aimed at have shown that they are incapable of looking after the interests of anyone else but themselves when left to their own devices.

yep you have hit the nail on the head, all my family are labour, I have voted labour previously, now I am 25 and starting to change my perspectives.

[life on mars]

yep you have hit the nail on the head, all my family are labour, I have voted labour previously, now I am 25 and starting to change my perspectives.

I think your first post has nailed the UK position, we are a Liberal Left society , I always wonder what would have happened if Clegg had formed a coalition with Labour , then you realise they would not have a majority to govern that well as we have now .


The country is badly split, there some wonderful middle ground Labour folk I like but the current leadership doesn't ,how the likes of Hilary Benn , Yvette Cooper , Chukka Umunna , Dan Jarvis , Jess Phillips, Alan Johnson , Miliband's, Frank Field ( yes old but a significant political mind ) Caroline Flint,Harriet Harman ( sadly left politics , IMO would have been a great leader)Tristram Hunt ,etc etc . gosh there are so many , now not in the frontline of the party , they would crush the current Tory party .

Makes me sad .

[Wales-Bales]

I think your first post has nailed the UK position, we are a Liberal Left society , I always wonder what would have happened if Clegg had formed a coalition with Labour , then you realise they would not have a majority to govern that well as we have now .


The country is badly split, there some wonderful middle ground Labour folk I like but the current leadership doesn't ,how the likes of Hilary Benn , Yvette Cooper , Chukka Umunna , Dan Jarvis , Jess Phillips, Alan Johnson , Miliband's, Frank Field ( yes old but a significant political mind ) Caroline Flint,Harriet Harman ( sadly left politics , IMO would have been a great leader)Tristram Hunt ,etc etc . gosh there are so many , now not in the frontline of the party , they would crush the current Tory party .

Makes me sad .

Quite a few Tory Light in that lot

[CardiffIrish2]

Quite a few Tory Light in that lot

At least they’re opposing the govt as opposed to the great enabler Corbyn.

[Heathblue]

Hi there, my first post on the politics board.

In the last few years I have started to take a keen interest in politics but I do not find myself aligned with any of the current party's or politicians viewpoints. I have outlined a few of my general thoughts below and I am genuinely curios to see if you believe I have a completely poor ill-educated mish mash of points, or if there is an actual sub culture of philosophy that I reasonably fit into.

I have always believed myself to be a liberal person, certainly culturally, believe in gay rights, non discrimination, religious freedom.

I come from a working class background, and would always fight in the corner of the working class man or women.

However I feel that for true liberal progression and to provide opportunity and choice and freedom to the working class, this is achieved by breaking down power structures and layers, however liberal's and the left often support big government, regulation, high taxes, trade unions as a way to to keep the rich in check and to stop wealth monopoly.

This just seems to me to exacerbate the problem, for example the financial crisis, was caused by banks taking huge financial risks, with little regard for everyone else, because they knew (rightly so) that the government would guarantee personal accounts and bail the banks out.

I have since heard people argue, that a true conservative capitalist position would be to have let them fail, do not have government involvement in regulating banking at all, this would have devastated the sector, and they would have never taken those risks, less regulation and and truly free market, would increase competition towards being the safest and most secure banks for their clients. but instead people ask for more regulation and control of banking

I guess the point I am trying to make above is surely, a really true capitalist society (which we have never really had, america got the closest which happened to coincide with its crazy boom years) with low regulation, no minimum wage, low taxes. This is all seen as right wing conservative thought, but it would in my view actually be of most benefit to the working class, we would have much stronger labour choices, cheaper prices due to less bureaucracy and most importantly freedom to choose to spend our money in the best way we feel fit for ourselves.

I find it weird that, working people hand over so much money for the government to spend it as they feel fit for us, meanwhile employing tens of thousands of government workers on great salary's and pension benefits, it is just a whole level disrupting and slowing down free market economics.

So far I understand that much of this sounds like an average conservative viewpoint, but then why is conservative viewpoints regards as against the working class, I see the exact opposite, breaking down structures of the elite and taking power and influence away is going to help stop the the top 1% and big business influencing policy and keeping the rich, rich.

Now this is where I differ lots of working class / left people seem to be fighting against inequality by blaming capitalism and turning more towards socialist politics, but my understand of socialism and democrats is they seem to want to control business via regulation and high tax's in order to control the economy and stop exploitation, now unless my history is wrong, that is basically what fascism is? my goodness the Nazi's were literally called the national socialist party.

So I still do not understand why conservative thoughts like I myself hold get called fascists by the progressive, Surely the way to stop the threat of fascism in not to encourage nationalisation of business and give more power to the government.

In summary I just feel that lots of politics just seems arse backwards, a good example of this is brexit (whatever your opinion lets not debate that) but the paradox I see with EU, is that remain is supported hugely by politicians on the left, but yet the biggest votes for leave are amongst traditional labour communities, you can flip it upside down or take it back 20 years and you can just as easily have torries supporting remain, because they see it as reducing tariffs and obstacles for big business to grow and get rich, and the labour voters not liking the fact it benefits big business and we have hundreds of already rich highly educated mep's flying back and forth Brussels sitting in pointless chamber meetings collecting huge salaries, pensions and expenses.

In final summary, maybe lets give true free market, Libertarianism , small government a go, the closest anyway has ever come to it, was the Americans back in the day, it is created the worlds most powerful nation and turned a significant proportion of the working american into a brand new middle class. There are some people calling for it and it me it makes sense, it just seems strange that I come to it from what I believe is a leftist perspective.



P.S It is important to say some of my views are derived from Peter Schiff at occupy wall street, the video is below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RY0R0NpIdQQ

Bunch of C***s the lot all of them, no exceptions, career crooks.

[life on mars]

At least they’re opposing the govt as opposed to the great enabler Corbyn.

Agenda's huh??

[life on mars]

Quite a few Tory Light in that lot

And ?

[Organ Morgan.]

Bunch of C***s the lot all of them, no exceptions, career crooks.

Aye. Here's every MPs top two priorities - 1, Self-enrichment, which includes voting to up their pay above the prevailing inflation rate at every opportunity, wangle as much expenses as they can, employ at the state's expense as many friends, family or whomever they're bonking. Other legal fiddles include renting out their own homes to receive an income while renting another property that everyone else pays for. 2, Maintaining the status quo, the most critically important element of which is to ensure the continued enrichment of private commercial bankers who control the money supply by having a licence to create money from nothing then issue loans to collect interest on what doesn't actually exist.

It matters not what colour the rosette they wear because they all play for the same team who have an identical agenda.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Aye. Here's every MPs top two priorities - 1, Self-enrichment, which includes voting to up their pay above the prevailing inflation rate at every opportunity, wangle as much expenses as they can, employ at the state's expense as many friends, family or whomever they're bonking. Other legal fiddles include renting out their own homes to receive an income while renting another property that everyone else pays for. 2, Maintaining the status quo, the most critically important element of which is to ensure the continued enrichment of private commercial bankers who control the money supply by having a licence to create money from nothing then issue loans to collect interest on what doesn't actually exist.

It matters not what colour the rosette they wear because they all play for the same team who have an identical agenda.

It's easy to be totally cynical but many MP's can earn more elsewhere and without the indignity of failing in the elections and losing their jobs. Yes, I know they get really good pensions but I don't believe that some of them aren't altruistic.

[Organ Morgan.]

I'll stick with my belief that they're all corrupt, and not one would ever volunteer to submit to a publicly held lie detector test for they know they would be exposed.

[Pearcey3]

I’m 54 and showing no sign of moving to the right. I would love to see a radical Labour Government in power really changing the country for the better

[Wales-Bales]

And ?

Uniparty, remember when Benn backed Cameron over Syria? Same deal with Brexit. They always come together on the big issues, and argue over the minor stuff. That is how the illusion of democracy works

[Wales-Bales]

It's easy to be totally cynical but many MP's can earn more elsewhere and without the indignity of failing in the elections and losing their jobs. Yes, I know they get really good pensions but I don't believe that some of them aren't altruistic.

George Osborne is a good example of earning a lot more elsewhere.

[Organ Morgan.]

There's people on this thread who recall the Tories from 1979 to 1997 and also know much of the reforms they brought in which Labour opposed, or pretended to, such as anti-trade union legislation and privatising citizen-owned utility companies, etc, and they will also know that Labour from 1997 to 2010 failed to undo any of it, which meant they shared culpability for flogging them off on the cheap. Yet they continue to delude themselves that fundamental differences exist between the red and blue teams.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

As political parties change direction and emphasis it makes more sense to me not to be loyal to any particular party but to see which party aligns to one's own values at any juncture.

[life on mars]

There's people on this thread who recall the Tories from 1979 to 1997 and also know much of the reforms they brought in which Labour opposed, or pretended to, such as anti-trade union legislation and privatising citizen-owned utility companies, etc, and they will also know that Labour from 1997 to 2010 failed to undo any of it, which meant they shared culpability for flogging them off on the cheap. Yet they continue to delude themselves that fundamental differences exist between the red and blue teams.

And those decisions made by the Labour from 1997 to 2010 were accepted as a rule by society, as they were voted for those governments in very big numbers , the thing that did for them was Iraq, not the domestic policy.

I seem to recall the NHS , Education and Policing were funded well, and performed very well ,devolution was driven through ,gay marriages established , Irish peace deal finalised , not a total evil era .