Stay in the EU petition

[Croesy Blue]

Remainer's terms? What does that even mean? The brexit that remainer's wanted? What, leaving the customs union and single market?

I think the media in this country have spun things so much that people genuinely believe stuff like that.

[Wales-Bales]

You think the EU is a bureaucratic nightmare? Is that why the EU civil service numbers 32,000 and the UKs numbers 440,000.

I wish everyone would stop putting the blame for the UKs woes on the EU and start having a closer look at our own government.

To gain control

Step 1: Leave the EU
Step 2: Vote for a government that will serve it's citizens

[Croesy Blue]

To gain control

Step 1: Leave the EU
Step 2: Vote for a government that will serve it's citizens

What do you think the EU are stopping us doing?

[Taunton Blue Genie]

It’s not her deal you twats.
It’s the only deal the EU will offer.

More reasoned debate...

[Croesy Blue]

More reasoned debate...

The thread is full of reasoned debate, are you just quoting the 2 insult so you can have an air of superiority over the 2 people swearing?

[xsnaggle]

It isn't just about what they are stopping us doing, its about having some other authority that has powers to prevent our government enacting laws for our people and having last say in our national affairs at different levels.
I do not like the fact that some foreign judges, some if not all of whom are political appointees can overrule judgements handed down in british courts by british judges to and for british people.
I don't like that fact that the common agricultural policy is in serious need of review but it never happens because the french are held to ransom by their farmers and veto changes.
I do not like the fact that France subsidises its major companies contrary to EU policy and no one stops them.
I do not like the fact that we put more money into the EU that we take out and we are subsidisiing countries that cannot or will not run their economies within manageable figures, like Italy and Greece..

Whilst on the subject, if we contribute more than we take out how can it be categorically untrue that they are just giving us our own money beck?
I don't like how the fishing regulations favours spanish ships fishing in our waters and that they have a bigger say in the policy because they eat a lot of fish.
I do not like the way that EU countries ignore the law that says refugeees must be registered for asylum in the first country they enter, and allow them to just cross the whole of Europe to get to UK. And the EU takes no action against them for doing it. In fact they tried to penalise Italy when as a Sovereign state they prevented refugee ships from docking. Hungary (I think it was) had to build a fence to keep them out because other countries weren't acting on the first country rule and they got into trouble with the EU for their actions to protect, as they saw it, their own country.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

The thread is full of reasoned debate, are you just quoting the 2 insult so you can have an air of superiority over the 2 people swearing?

Exchanging insults debases any debate and achieves absolutely nothing. In fact, it detracts from valid points that could be made in a more reasonable manner. Calling each other twats or similar hardly wins an argument.

[Zenith]

Over 2 million signatures...

[lardy]

All this talk about why people voted and Project Fear, it makes me think how strange it is that illegal immigration went from being massive news, constantly on the front pages in the first half of 2016 to rarely mentioned at all I the second half.

[RichardM]

I agree with you 100%. I am the same.
We voted in a referendum. It is binding on the politicians.
they have a duty to deliver.

On normal bills and things each MP can vote as he sees fit, but with a referendum he doesn't. Anyone in parliament attempting to stop it should be removed for obstructing the will of the people.

Only 17million out of about 46m eligible to vote actually voted to leave and there was nothing in the bill that called the referendum saying it was binding. It was one of Cameron's cock ups. It is usual to have minimum turnouts and to specify that not only must the minimum turnout must met but there must be a majority of at least 60% for the referendum to be binding. If Cameron had enacted that we wouldn't be in the mess we are now.

PS MPs don't normally vote as they see fit, they vote according to how they are whipped by their party.

[Croesy Blue]

It isn't just about what they are stopping us doing, its about having some other authority that has powers to prevent our government enacting laws for our people and having last say in our national affairs at different levels. what laws are they stopping us enacting


I do not like the fact that some foreign judges, some if not all of whom are political appointees can overrule judgements handed down in british courts by british judges to and for british people. what judgements have been over ruled

I don't like that fact that the common agricultural policy is in serious need of review but it never happens because the french are held to ransom by their farmers and veto changes. fair point

I do not like the fact that France subsidises its major companies contrary to EU policy and no one stops them. fair point

I do not like the fact that we put more money into the EU that we take out not true, plus the benefits we get on trading etc are worth it

and we are subsidisiing countries that cannot or will not run their economies within manageable figures, like Italy and Greece.. not true

Whilst on the subject, if we contribute more than we take out how can it be categorically untrue that they are just giving us our own money beck? it is untrue

I don't like how the fishing regulations favours spanish ships fishing in our waters and that they have a bigger say in the policy because they eat a lot of fish. that won’t be any better when we are out though

I do not like the way that EU countries ignore the law that says refugeees must be registered for asylum in the first country they enter, and allow them to just cross the whole of Europe to get to UK. And the EU takes no action against them for doing it. In fact they tried to penalise Italy when as a Sovereign state they prevented refugee ships from docking. so you don’t like it when they don’t register in the first country but also don’t like it when they punish a country when they’re the first country

Hungary (I think it was) had to build a fence to keep them out because other countries weren't acting on the first country rule and they got into trouble with the EU for their actions to protect, as they saw it, their own country. Hungary built a fence because they have a far right government

There’s still not one tangible benefit of leaving in that. No one is saying the EU is perfect, in fact they do need big reforms. But the current U.K. government aren’t any better.

[xsnaggle]

There’s still not one tangible benefit of leaving in that. No one is saying the EU is perfect, in fact they do need big reforms. But the current U.K. government aren’t any better.

I don't think I mentioned anywhere in that that the things I was mentioning were benefit or getting out of them was. What may or may not be a benefit is subjective and if anyone says X is a benefit someone else can say its not, so if anyone says something is a benefit you can find something that appears to disprove it.
What I listed are SOME of the things I don't like about the EU. There are more. There are also many people who think the same way.

With regard to opinion polls saying 63% now favour remaining means nothing. You only have to look at polls for the last referendum and the last several elections to see the value of them.

My understanding regarding referenda was always that for a thing to change 50% of the #Eligible@ vote had to vote for it, in other words half the people on the electoral roll plus 1. Any non vote being classed as a vote to maintain the status quo.
Tony Blair was the person who first changed the rules in order to get the result he promised to welsh labour on devolution. That was even narrower than this referendum but no one shouted for a re-vote, even though it resulted in our being governed by people elected by about 12% of the population, and tiers of government which cost a fortune.

[Croesy Blue]

Im talking tangible benefits though, there are so many people in this country deep in poverty, there are people working full time jobs and still starving, homelessness has increased massively, violent crime is up. Austerity has killed this country and we are forcing ourselves towards another financial crash. Is Brexit worth that, because of some imagined statistics and “dodgy” politicians?!

This is purely the negatives without even looking at the fact we are taking away the chances of all but the richest of our children having the chance to study or work abroad and the chance of retired brits to move abroad.

I really hope we make a success of brexit but the way it’s been negotiated there’s nothing left but a negative **** up which could have been avoided by sensible negotiating.

Whatever people voted for they didn’t vote for this.

[xsnaggle]

Im talking tangible benefits though, there are so many people in this country deep in poverty, there are people working full time jobs and still starving, homelessness has increased massively, violent crime is up. Austerity has killed this country and we are forcing ourselves towards another financial crash. Is Brexit worth that, because of some imagined statistics and “dodgy” politicians?!

This is purely the negatives without even looking at the fact we are taking away the chances of all but the richest of our children having the chance to study or work abroad and the chance of retired brits to move abroad.

I really hope we make a success of brexit but the way it’s been negotiated there’s nothing left but a negative **** up which could have been avoided by sensible negotiating.

Whatever people voted for they didn’t vote for this.

While I appreciate what you say there is no way that anyone can say negotiated differently we would have got a better deal, or that we ever will. The EU is a protectionist bloc and would always seek to drive the hardest possible bargain. They would do everything in their power to prevent it completely if they can. The only reason they are helping now is because they know a no-deal exit will hurt them as much as us, and nation states like Germany are beginning to grasp how much it will hurt their economies.

I believe the EU don't want us to leave because if we kept a successful economy, or even improve, then it will encourage other countries to consider an opt out, ( Greece? Italy? Germany? Holland?)and that will destroy the dream, which is now admitted is a federal europe, a political end-game, which previously was never admitted. We joined a common market for our goods, and that is the way it should have stayed.

[lardy]

While I appreciate what you say there is no way that anyone can say negotiated differently we would have got a better deal, or that we ever will. The EU is a protectionist bloc and would always seek to drive the hardest possible bargain. They would do everything in their power to prevent it completely if they can. The only reason they are helping now is because they know a no-deal exit will hurt them as much as us, and nation states like Germany are beginning to grasp how much it will hurt their economies.

I believe the EU don't want us to leave because if we kept a successful economy, or even improve, then it will encourage other countries to consider an opt out, ( Greece? Italy? Germany? Holland?)and that will destroy the dream, which is now admitted is a federal europe, a political end-game, which previously was never admitted. We joined a common market for our goods, and that is the way it should have stayed.

It's certainly in the EU's interests to avoid no deal. They would suffer because of it.

But to suggest a country like Germany would be hurt just as much as the UK is insane. The majority of citizens of other EU countries, with the exception of Ireland, won't notice much difference to their actual day to day lives.

[William Treseder]

Especially being that enough of those who voted leave have died of old age and enough young people who it actually will affect for the rest of their lives have come of voting age to completely overturn the result

Result would be the same.

[the other bob wilson]

Result would be the same.

I accept opinion poll companies have not had a good few years, but this says different and it's notable how stable the figures have stayed in the past year or so.

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/opinion-...poll-of-polls/

[Croesy Blue]

I accept opinion poll companies have not had a good few years, but this says different and it's notable how stable the figures have stayed in the past year or so.

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/opinion-...poll-of-polls/

I have a feeling a second referendum would really play into the whole “sovereignty” angle that’s been getting played and we’d see a sway towards leave again.

[trampie09]

Its coming home, its coming home - no deal will surely lead to the break up of the UK state and no deal is now the expected outcome of some of the so called experts.
Could it happen ?

[trampie09]

Mays deal [MV3] will be voted down - basically everyone thinks that at this stage, then its no deal v's revoke and May and lots of her Government are thought to favour no deal as the people voted for Brexit, the people did not vote to stay, so no deal is the conclusion.

[Swiss Peter]

It's certainly in the EU's interests to avoid no deal. They would suffer because of it.

But to suggest a country like Germany would be hurt just as much as the UK is insane. The majority of citizens of other EU countries, with the exception of Ireland, won't notice much difference to their actual day to day lives.

Indeed. Not sure why some can't (or won't) get their head around this. It's simple maths.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46612362

[xsnaggle]

It's certainly in the EU's interests to avoid no deal. They would suffer because of it.

But to suggest a country like Germany would be hurt just as much as the UK is insane. The majority of citizens of other EU countries, with the exception of Ireland, won't notice much difference to their actual day to day lives.

I think I said the EU would be hurt as much. But Germany would be hurt. Her car industry does huge business with UK which would suffer, and the germans are closer to us than any other european nation historically despite 2 wars. The German press and politicians have siad it would hurt the German economy and whre as we would be free to set up new trade deals to fill the gap ( Whetheer we do ro not is a different question) they would still be inside the EU and see the loss of our trade as permanent.

[trampie09]

The EU can try and convince and point the UK into a certain direction but they have no control over the UK leaving as they cant stop the UK from leaving and the UK people have voted to leave, the political classes both here and in Europe don't like it and are trying various tactics but as things stand we are still leaving.

[xsnaggle]

I don't think Sovereignty is " an angle being played". It is something that many people genuinely believe is important and have done for thousands of years. A few years (in evolution terms) of collective decision making will never erase that.
It is that desire for sovereignty and self determination that will acheive another leave vote despite all the economic factors screaming remain.
Another thing that will secure another leave vote is people, many like me who originally voted remain, voting leave to punish the politicians for seeking to ignore the will of the people. You'd think by now that they would have learned from history that any politician who treats the great British public with contempt is a fool.

[the other bob wilson]

I have a feeling a second referendum would really play into the whole “sovereignty” angle that’s been getting played and we’d see a sway towards leave again.

I wouldn't argue too much with that, but I would say that neither side could get away with running the sort of campaign they did back in 2016 now.

I always said that although it's impossible to pin the whole debate down to one subject, immigration was the issue that people wanted to talk about most in the run up to the vote and yet one of the mysteries of the two and three quarter years since then is how little it has been mentioned (apparently, the figures show that any decrease in EU immigration has been offset by a rise from other countries). Would immigration become the issue it was again if there was another Referendum? I think that, tactically, it would be a subject that the Leave campaign would be happy to bring up again.