Labour inching their way towards becoming a Remain party, but..............

[the other bob wilson]

has the horse bolted for them?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48919695

[Wales-Bales]

Corbyn has just sealed his own fate by pandering to the London branch of the party.

[Veg1960]

has the horse bolted for them?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48919695

Could be too late Bob, but I think any more fence sitting would surely have been even worse.

[Wales-Bales]

Could be too late Bob, but I think any more fence sitting would surely have been even worse.

Corbyn will never be prime minister.

[life on mars]

His ideological friends advisers are the ones to look at .

Andrew Murray ,Andrew Fisher, Seumas Milne,Chris Williamson,Karie Murphy,Len McCluskey.

[Heathblue]

Corbyn will never be prime minister.

Thank Gawd who have we got as a rising star in the party ?, Tories are there for the taking but not with Steptoe steering the ship

[Eric Cartman]

Thank Gawd who have we got as a rising star in the party ?, Tories are there for the taking but not with Steptoe steering the ship

Therein lies the problem with UK politics, 'rising star', the movement becomes electable if some swish tosspot sweeps in.

[Heathblue]

Therein lies the problem with UK politics, 'rising star', the movement becomes electable if some swish tosspot sweeps in.

Dustbin is damaged goods, his failure to deal with A-S, his flip flop with Brexit, some swish tosspot could override this with the Tories in disarray, Do you want a Labour government or not!!. I wouldn't mind it, but not an out and out left wing wank fest.

[RonnieBird]

I'm hoping that both established political parties have had their day. They're rooted in some ideological / class struggle from the past, even though both have long abandoned their original positions and aimed for the centre with no particular aim in mind but to gain power.
People who vote for either one of them tend to do so on a purely tribal basis or because they're following some trendy media agenda.
The firebrand socialists are usually the product of public schools and privileged backgrounds ,whilst the keen conservatives often come from council estates and comprehensive schools.

At this point they like each other more than they like the British people , whom they see as unworthy thick peasants who's opinions and even votes don't deserve respect or consideration - we can see this in their actions and stances upon Brexit , but that's not the only issue over which they act as if they've been annointed to rule rather than elected .

In terms of the specific question here, Labour haven't got a clue where they stand because they have no conviction or belief other than how it effects their personal benefit - will leave or remain get them elected ?. That's all they care about, just as the other lot suddenly get committed to Brexit when the party of the same name threatens their seats.

Isn't it time people wised up to this crooked nonsense and demanded proper representation without party labels ?

[Taunton Blue Genie]

I'm hoping that both established political parties have had their day. They're rooted in some ideological / class struggle from the past, even though both have long abandoned their original positions and aimed for the centre with no particular aim in mind but to gain power.
People who vote for either one of them tend to do so on a purely tribal basis or because they're following some trendy media agenda.
The firebrand socialists are usually the product of public schools and privileged backgrounds ,whilst the keen conservatives often come from council estates and comprehensive schools.

At this point they like each other more than they like the British people , whom they see as unworthy thick peasants who's opinions and even votes don't deserve respect or consideration - we can see this in their actions and stances upon Brexit , but that's not the only issue over which they act as if they've been annointed to rule rather than elected .

In terms of the specific question here, Labour haven't got a clue where they stand because they have no conviction or belief other than how it effects their personal benefit - will leave or remain get them elected ?. That's all they care about, just as the other lot suddenly get committed to Brexit when the party of the same name threatens their seats.

Isn't it time people wised up to this crooked nonsense and demanded proper representation without party labels ?

Where in the democratic world does such a system exist though?

Personally, I think that the role of private schools, the attitude of emphasising white collar over blue collar professions, hereditary peerages, the honours system and having a royal family all contribute to class division and elitism that still define the parties to a great degree. And although I am from working class stock I have never found the Labour party appealing either. The two main parties merely seems the two sides of a coin that should no longer be legal tender....

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Where in the democratic world does such a system exist though?

Personally, I think that the role of private schools, the attitude of emphasising white collar over blue collar professions, hereditary peerages, the honours system and having a royal family all contribute to class division and elitism that still define the parties to a great degree. And although I am from working class stock I have never found the Labour party appealing either. The two main parties merely seem the two sides of a coin that should no longer be legal tender....

Corrected as I couldn't edit

[Wales-Bales]

I'm hoping that both established political parties have had their day. They're rooted in some ideological / class struggle from the past, even though both have long abandoned their original positions and aimed for the centre with no particular aim in mind but to gain power.
People who vote for either one of them tend to do so on a purely tribal basis or because they're following some trendy media agenda.
The firebrand socialists are usually the product of public schools and privileged backgrounds ,whilst the keen conservatives often come from council estates and comprehensive schools.

At this point they like each other more than they like the British people , whom they see as unworthy thick peasants who's opinions and even votes don't deserve respect or consideration - we can see this in their actions and stances upon Brexit , but that's not the only issue over which they act as if they've been annointed to rule rather than elected .

In terms of the specific question here, Labour haven't got a clue where they stand because they have no conviction or belief other than how it effects their personal benefit - will leave or remain get them elected ?. That's all they care about, just as the other lot suddenly get committed to Brexit when the party of the same name threatens their seats.

Isn't it time people wised up to this crooked nonsense and demanded proper representation without party labels ?

The power lies with the people, yet they vote for the same two parties year after year.

[life on mars]

I am preying Brexit ,breaks both the Tory and Labour parties into bits .

[RonnieBird]

Where in the democratic world does such a system exist though?

Personally, I think that the role of private schools, the attitude of emphasising white collar over blue collar professions, hereditary peerages, the honours system and having a royal family all contribute to class division and elitism that still define the parties to a great degree. And although I am from working class stock I have never found the Labour party appealing either. The two main parties merely seems the two sides of a coin that should no longer be legal tender....

Quite right - George Galloway expresses that as two cheeks of the same arse , but I much prefer your phrase and intend to steal it !
I take your points about class stuff, especially the royal family thing, but I think class consciousness is largely self inflicted so I doubt that we'll ever rid ourselves of it.

Now, in answer to your question of where does such a system exist, I don't think it does , except of course that I presume it was the natural state of affairs before someone started forming parties. I don't think though that the current absence of a "partyless " democracy means that it couldn't be done.
Maybe that should be another thread altogether ?

[CardiffIrish2]

Nails it for me....
https://www.ft.com/content/de6e2b14-...c-ad1c6ab5efd1

[jon1959]

Nails it for me....
https://www.ft.com/content/de6e2b14-...c-ad1c6ab5efd1

What does it say? I clicked on it and got the 'choose your subscription' page.

[life on mars]

has the horse bolted for them?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48919695

Remain where, on the fence , still not had any real clarity ,just wholly statements, hope there not playing with electorate, they have a chance now annnnnnnd,were still waiting ?

[Wales-Bales]

[life on mars]

Trump ,Farage ,Boris , evil axis ??

[life on mars]

Dont need Farage they are more than capable of overthrowing themselves 😂

[xsnaggle]

Where in the democratic world does such a system exist though?

Personally, I think that the role of private schools, the attitude of emphasising white collar over blue collar professions, hereditary peerages, the honours system and having a royal family all contribute to class division and elitism that still define the parties to a great degree. And although I am from working class stock I have never found the Labour party appealing either. The two main parties merely seems the two sides of a coin that should no longer be legal tender....

In my limited experience I have found that class divisions is perpetuated more by the left wing and by communist leaning groups that by anyone else, almost to use it as a weapon and a means of arousing the masses. The problem is that the masses, (the man on the clapham omnibus) couldn't really give a toss.

[Eric Cartman]

In my limited experience I have found that class divisions is perpetuated more by the left wing and by communist leaning groups that by anyone else, almost to use it as a weapon and a means of arousing the masses. The problem is that the masses, (the man on the clapham omnibus) couldn't really give a toss.

Well the people benefitting from immense inequality of opportunity from birth would hardly want to broadcast it but if you think they aren't already going to war to protect the system that made them then you are not looking hard enough.

[life on mars]

In my limited experience I have found that class divisions is perpetuated more by the left wing and by communist leaning groups that by anyone else, almost to use it as a weapon and a means of arousing the masses. The problem is that the masses, (the man on the clapham omnibus) couldn't really give a toss.

I can concur with the same voted Labour and been surrounded by the very same voters all my life as Wales is that clique , the envy is tangible to say the least ,if they are not carping on about the rich is the English , strangely a good number of them are very affluent /comfortable and enjoying the very spoils of capitalism they despise ,which they are not going to give up any time soon .

I do wonder at times if the rants about the rich and success , are those of guilt or just effect .

I think we should bring in a voluntary social care tax that simply goes to the very causes they feel others or governments dont contribute enough too , like too see how many of them actual give .

Or is it easy to moan , and feel good about it ?

[Eric Cartman]

I can concur with the same voted Labour and been surrounded by the very same voters all my life as Wales is that clique , the envy is tangible to say the least ,if they are not carping on about the rich is the English , strangely a good number of them are very affluent /comfortable and enjoying the very spoils of capitalism they despise ,which they are not going to give up any time soon .

I do wonder at times if the rants about the rich and success , are those of guilt or just effect .

I think we should bring in a voluntary social care tax that simply goes to the very causes they feel others or governments dont contribute enough too , like too see how many of them actual give .

Or is it easy to moan , and feel good about it ?

You could write for the Express.

It is possible to think we should, as a country, be able to find a way to care for the elderly without donning overalls and wiping arses yourself. It doesn't make you a hypocrite to see somebody with a 75 million quid bonus and wonder whether that money could be better used.

Just like it is possible to enjoy 'the spoils of capitalism' and at the same time seek to address the problems it causes.

[life on mars]

You could write for the Express.

It is possible to think we should, as a country, be able to find a way to care for the elderly without donning overalls and wiping arses yourself. It doesn't make you a hypocrite to see somebody with a 75 million quid bonus and wonder whether that money could be better used.

Just like it is possible to enjoy 'the spoils of capitalism' and at the same time seek to address the problems it causes.

Politics of envy !