Reply With QuoteI wonder if Noam Chomsky is just the wrong kind of Jew?Originally Posted by RonnieBird
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Really? Where do I stand Philip? By the way what is your opinion of the Armenian holocaust perpetrated by Turkey?
I wonder if Noam Chomsky is just the wrong kind of Jew?
You are a piece of work aren't you? There is no deflection in countering your conflation of anti-Zionism with anti-semitism. And you are the one who is deliberately equating criticism of the Israeli state's political ideology and policies with Judaism (whether defined by race, religion, culture or ethnicity). The only person in this thread to 'go after a race' is you with your anti-semitic tropes and comparing modern anti-Zionist Jews (orthodox, liberal, socialist and others) with Nazis.
We have indeed heard all that before, and it stinks! It also works, which is the real shame. It distracts from the real rise of anti-semitic hatred and attacks especially in Europe and North America - mainly fed by right-wing populists (who really do look for inspiration to the 1930s fascists), but it also gags Palestinians and their supporters and feeds a false story to the various Jewish communities in this country and beyond.
The shame and absurdity of your position is when non-Jewish members of organisations like the Labour Friends Of Israel or the Jewish Labour Movement (which encourages non-Jewish membership unlike the Jewish Voice For Labour) denounce a Jewish survivor of the Auchwitz concentration camp as an anti-semite because of his opposition to Israeli settler colonialism - partly to smear Corbyn by association.
“Piece of work “ now is it ?
Your friend was talking about “my sort “
The clue to your fake position of being reasonable is the use of dehumanising language. It reminds me so much of nazi speeches, trying to sound rational but unable to use derogatory terms for their intended victims.
It also reminds me of the civil rights movement in the USA when racists would quote “uncle Tom” black men who were prepared to defend segregation.
As I said, we’ve heard it before and it’s interesting that we hear it now from the group here who try to gang up on people they disagree with. Some have a latent mob mentality and that can be extremely ugly
Either they are trying to deal with the issue or they aren't.
You can't simultaneously adopt the position that they aren't trying to deal with it whilst evidencing the problem by pointing to the number of suspensions there have been.
I know what the response will be, they aren't doing 'enough' but it is meaningless.
What does this mean?
I'll take that as a serious question Eric. Two people here are somewhere between denying that anti semitism exists and saying that it's a consequence of Israeli foreign policy rather than plain race hate.
Now, of course we can critisise Israel like any other country ,( although maybe a more balanced view is called for ), but when people use dehumanising language of the sort which has crept in despite the apparently calm logic they portray, then it's a clue that there's something lurking there.
This is not just my observation, it's an established clue to closet racists saying one thing but meaning another.
I have not denied that anti-semitism exists. I have stressed in most of my posts that it exists - in the Labour Party and in wider society. It is real and growing in many places.
I have not said that anti-semitism is a consequence of Israeli foreign policy. Anti-semitism is racism and I condemn it totally, with no excuses.
However I will not accept that anti-Zionism is anti-semitism. I will not follow your view that critics of that political ideology - many of them Jewish - are anti-semites.
A lot of the world's most prominent Zionists are not Jewish at all - the likes of Mike Pence and Mike Pompeo are Christian Zionists - fundamentalists who believe that the justification for Israeli settler colonialism is to be found in the Old Testament.
You do not engage with the arguments against your view but just revert to slander and, stupidity. Nazis were racists - their genocide of European Jews had nothing to do with political differences. White supremacists seeking Uncle Tom figures to support segregation is the exact opposite of anti-Zionists (Jews and non-Jews) fighting against state apartheid policies in Israel. The dehumanising language is coming from you - repeatedly refusing to accept that Jewish people have opinions and interests that are not the same as those of Israel the state. That is just repeating one of the anti-semitic tropes that the recent events in Labour highlighted.
Do you understand what you are saying in these posts? You seem to be tying yourself in knots, revelling in claiming up is down and left is right. 'It is an established clue....' is the nonsense that comes from someone without a clue and without honesty. I would happily discuss the extent of anti-semitism in the Labour Party, other parties or wider society. I would happily discuss the extent to which some/most Jewish people consider Zionism to be part of their identity and how that sits with support or opposition to Israeli state policy. But none of that is possible with you - you don't care about those questions, or about evidence, or about anything but cheap insults, propaganda and posing as a victim.
Where was my dehumanising language ? Did I say " your sort " or call anyone a " nasty piece of work" for complaining about anti semitism ?
You will not accept that anti zionists are anti Semitic ? Well of course you won't !
Why would an anti Semite hate Israel ? Maybe because they don't like that someone has the military strength to answer a future genocide.
Are these "anti zionists " rational in their arguments ? Are they proportional ? No, they speak of " wiping Israel off the face of the earth", which would just incidentally kill millions of Jews.
Are they fair in assessing the clash between terrorist murderers and the only democracy in the region ? No.
Do they complain when Palestinians fire rockets at Jewish schools ? No.
Did they complain when Egypt and Jordan simply killed Palestinians to end their violence ? No, they prefer to attack a Jewish country which tries to contain it within laws.
This is a very dangerous thing you know. We've seen what happens when "radical" politicians gradually start finding reasons to make the Jews into a bogeyman then their followers justify it and try to make it seem okay with false logic.
Dear RonnieB,
Genuine question... Do you think Corbyn was being anti-Semitic or anti-Zionist or none of the above when he said "there are about 6 million Jewish people living in America, so as a percentage it’s quite small, but in terms of influence it’s quite big. In terms of money and influence, they are a very powerful lobby. There are other very powerful foreign lobbies in the United States of America, and the Jewish lobby, with its links with the Israeli government, is one of those strong voices"?
Does anyone think that some of this Labour anti semitism actually deliberate, as a vote grabber aimed at certain cultures / people that loath and hate anything , Israel , Jews and Americans ??
Why "Americans"?
Jewish Americans especially in New York state and the Eastern Seaboard have huge infrastructures , finances and influence.
American is seen as a close ally of Jews and Isreal.
Do you honestly believe that?
Yes
Well I'd think it was very typical of his inability / refusal to see Jewish people as full members of a nation.
You remember that he (in)famously told British Jews that they didn't understand British cultures and values, well in this quote he's describing the American Jewish Lobby as "another FOREIGN lobby" isn't he ?
Of course, they're Americans who happen to be Jewish, but to him they're Jews so they're foreign in some way. Just the same as when he tells Jews in this country that they don't understand "our" British values.
He sticks a bit in about apparent links with Israel, but if his apologists here are right, not all Jews are Zionists , yet according to him they're all foreign .
All joking aside, you can see from his language that however much he tries to claim it's something about Zionism or the country of Israel , it's really not .
See, what worries me is when instead of saying " oh yeah, actually so and so isn't right - we'd better think about this creeping in" , people start trying to twist the facts and justify it. I'm surprised to be honest that we've seen that happen right here, but we have I'm afraid and it's got to be challenged because it really becomes dangerous if people don't call it out for what it is.
Fair enough. Although, next time you want to condemn the allegations of anti-Semitism within the Labour party, just remember that you admitted to believing the anti-Semitic stereotype of Jews having lots of money and power/influence. Don't go being a hypocrite, now
What LOM said is true, but is it a reason to hate Jews if they're successful ?
Sorry, I've just realised that it was the "great man" Nigel Farage who those quotes are attributed to. They were widely condemned by the Jewish community and by the CAA:
https://antisemitism.uk/caa-demands-...ican-politics/
He was also condemned for perpetuating the same tropes that LoM has just done https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/ni...heories-502474
I'm sure you'll join me in condemning the massive, racist c**t and his role in the rise of anti-Semitism we've been seeing.
There are plenty of Jewish cab drivers too though.
I don't agree that Nigel is anti Semitic, but I'll give it some thought and look into what he said.
My initial feeling is that he's talking about something else, which is a different subject.
Look, if some people are doing something wrong , ( and I make no comment either way), they don't get out of it because they're Jewish. That's not the same thing as automatically vilifying people BECAUSE they're Jewish.
You're right though, that if he's displaying some kind of anti semitism then I'd condemn it completely.
Jewish group walks away from Labour - Labour is anti-Semitic.
Jewish group calls Nigel Farage's comments anti-Semitic - I'll have to look into it.
I'm off to bed now - got an early start tomorrow.
G'night, RonnieB. Don't go labouring too hard to find a way out of your hole.
If you are referring to the quote I think you are then this is a disingenuous representation of what was said.
You don't have to sensationalise everything, I think we probably all agree Corbyn crossed a line that day.
I heard it once on R4 whilst driving and that was a while back. If I got it wrong I apologise but I certainly wasn't trying to be disingenuous - that was my recollection. What did he actually say then ?
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