Jewish group walks away from Labour

[RonnieBird]

Not the point Eric
Point is that Labour is being clearly and I think correctly seen as so infested with dangerous anti semites that we cannot allow them to be in government. There are many other articles today including one saying that 50% of Jewish people would consider leaving the uk if Corbyn were elected because they’d fear for their safety

[jon1959]

If he hates racists he wouldn't have just taken a job working for the party that brought you windrush and the pm who makes Muslims the punchline of his jokes.

Strange move. So many potential masts to nail his colours to and he chooses Boris??

The Tory Party seems to be hoovering up a group of unlovely anti-Corbyn ex-Labour MPs and giving them jobs. Most of them are no loss to any political party - especially Labour.

John Mann has been given a ticket to the Lords and appointed 'Antisemitism Tsar' by Johnson. Ian Austin is to become the Tories' trade envoy to Israel. John Woodcock (still with the sexual harassment allegations unresolved) has been appointed by Johnson as 'special government envoy to tackle violent extremism'.

It wouldn't surprise me to see a clutch of other ex-Labour MPs pop up with similar new job titles and similar prime media slots to slag off Corbyn and Labour. They will all be on Dominic Cummings' whiteboard and primed to detonate when he thinks they will have most effect. Cynical and hypocritical but will it have any effect? Maybe at the far margins?

[Dorcus]

The Tory Party seems to be hoovering up a group of unlovely anti-Corbyn ex-Labour MPs and giving them jobs. Most of them are no loss to any political party - especially Labour.

John Mann has been given a ticket to the Lords and appointed 'Antisemitism Tsar' by Johnson. Ian Austin is to become the Tories' trade envoy to Israel. John Woodcock (still with the sexual harassment allegations unresolved) has been appointed by Johnson as 'special government envoy to tackle violent extremism'.

It wouldn't surprise me to see a clutch of other ex-Labour MPs pop up with similar new job titles and similar prime media slots to slag off Corbyn and Labour. They will all be on Dominic Cummings' whiteboard and primed to detonate when he thinks they will have most effect. Cynical and hypocritical but will it have any effect? Maybe at the far margins?

All aboard the Gravy Train.

[rs3100]

The Tory Party seems to be hoovering up a group of unlovely anti-Corbyn ex-Labour MPs and giving them jobs. Most of them are no loss to any political party - especially Labour.

John Mann has been given a ticket to the Lords and appointed 'Antisemitism Tsar' by Johnson. Ian Austin is to become the Tories' trade envoy to Israel. John Woodcock (still with the sexual harassment allegations unresolved) has been appointed by Johnson as 'special government envoy to tackle violent extremism'.

It wouldn't surprise me to see a clutch of other ex-Labour MPs pop up with similar new job titles and similar prime media slots to slag off Corbyn and Labour. They will all be on Dominic Cummings' whiteboard and primed to detonate when he thinks they will have most effect. Cynical and hypocritical but will it have any effect? Maybe at the far margins?

Kate Hoey next.

Ian Austin has had an axe to grind for a long long time. He is using antisemitism as political point scoring.
I'm not saying that antisemitism doesn't exist in the Labour party, but to use Ian Austin as your evidence for raging antisemitism is foolish.

[Eric Cartman]

Not the point Eric
Point is that Labour is being clearly and I think correctly seen as so infested with dangerous anti semites that we cannot allow them to be in government. There are many other articles today including one saying that 50% of Jewish people would consider leaving the uk if Corbyn were elected because they’d fear for their safety

What reasons did they give for that position? I see no evidence that Jewish people would be discriminated against under a labour government. Maybe you can change my mind with examples of discrimation currently taking place within the party.

Can't help but feel that if it was any other group in society the same people latching onto this would be condemning them for being 'anti-british' or something equally ridiculous and that hypocrisy for party political reasons is rotten.

[jon1959]

Len McCluskey pussyfooting around again:

'Treacherous hypocrite @IanAustin1965 calling for a Tory vote in the general election is no surprise.'

'He turned his back on @UKLabour values many, many years ago.'

[jon1959]

John McDonnell on the Jewish Chronicle front page attack today:

"Look, everything that has been asked of us by the Jewish community we’ve done. We were asked to look at antisemitism in the party and we’ve done a detailed investigation. We’ve identified a small, a tiny number, of antisemitic activities and we’ve dealt with it. We were asked to ensure we had disciplinary procedures that were fast, and I was saying ruthless as well, and that’s what we’ve done. We’ve expelled people. We were asked to setup an education programme. We’ve done that with independent organisations. I just say to them, have a look again at the reality of what we’ve done because actually we’ve done everything asked of us."

[jon1959]

Jeremy Corbyn on the Jewish Chronicle front page attack today:

"Antisemitism is a poison and an evil in our society. Any form of racism is a poison and an evil in our society. I have spent my whole life fighting against racism. I will die an anti-racist.

"I want every community to feel safe and supported in this country - the Jewish community, the Muslim community, any other community from any faith or any other part of the world.

"Our party has confronted the issue. We have suspended or expelled members. We have an education programme. And all of that has been set up since I became the leader of this party. And we will carry on doing exactly that.

"There are many Jewish people in this country who are members of the Labour party, supporters of the Labour party, work with the Labour party, and they do not share the views that have been put forward that have been put forward on the front page of the Jewish Chronicle. I regret the Jewish Chronicle has chosen to say that.

"I simply say to everyone, our community is stronger when people work together, when we recognise the danger and poison that antisemitism is. We will be a stronger community when we defeat all forms of racism. And I will be part of that campaign to eradicate racism in any form."

[RonnieBird]

What reasons did they give for that position? I see no evidence that Jewish people would be discriminated against under a labour government. Maybe you can change my mind with examples of discrimation currently taking place within the party.

Can't help but feel that if it was any other group in society the same people latching onto this would be condemning them for being 'anti-british' or something equally ridiculous and that hypocrisy for party political reasons is rotten.

Their reasons are almost beside the point Eric. Their fears may or may not be justified, but the effect will be the same either way, which is that lots of people believe labour to be a bunch of anti Semites and will therefore not vote for them.
Now ,right here in this thread we've seen examples. You've been perfectly rational and logical in your defence of labour, but two others have come up with exactly the kind of thing which causes the mistrust , defending anti semitism and adding a bit of their own .

It's reasonable to say that there are so many examples of anti semitism in that party that it's certainly a problem. I'm sure it's one which could be quickly solved if they stopped denying or defending it, but they won't . I'm also sure that 99% of labour voters aren't either anti Semites of nutters, but it's that 1% or less who worry decent people, especially when they're right at the top of the party .

I don't want to start this circular discussion again about whether the Nazis were theoretically socialists, but most Jewish people I know seem to think they were to all practical purposes, and I've heard many hypothesising about how they could quickly transform this subtle anti Jew theme into open hostility just as the Nazis did if they got into power.
They'd certainly bankrupt the country quite quickly with their current mad policies and a return to the days of power cuts, reduced working weeks and real poverty they'd create would be just the environment for trouble - how long before they blamed the Jews for the chaos they'd created ?
Last time they did the real socialist thing, ( which Blair didn't ), Dennis Healey hadn't alienated the USA, so they could go begging to the imf to bail them out, but these nutters would be so openly hostile to the free world that this wouldn't be an option.
Who would be blamed ? Who gets blamed every time a dictator wants a scapegoat , and this one knows he'd have a sympathetic audience amongst his supporters ?

Are these realistic fears ? Who knows, but they're real fears, and so they'll have real effects

[Eric Cartman]

Their reasons are almost beside the point Eric. Their fears may or may not be justified, but the effect will be the same either way, which is that lots of people believe labour to be a bunch of anti Semites and will therefore not vote for them.
Now ,right here in this thread we've seen examples. You've been perfectly rational and logical in your defence of labour, but two others have come up with exactly the kind of thing which causes the mistrust , defending anti semitism and adding a bit of their own .

It's reasonable to say that there are so many examples of anti semitism in that party that it's certainly a problem. I'm sure it's one which could be quickly solved if they stopped denying or defending it, but they won't . I'm also sure that 99% of labour voters aren't either anti Semites of nutters, but it's that 1% or less who worry decent people, especially when they're right at the top of the party .

I don't want to start this circular discussion again about whether the Nazis were theoretically socialists, but most Jewish people I know seem to think they were to all practical purposes, and I've heard many hypothesising about how they could quickly transform this subtle anti Jew theme into open hostility just as the Nazis did if they got into power.
They'd certainly bankrupt the country quite quickly with their current mad policies and a return to the days of power cuts, reduced working weeks and real poverty they'd create would be just the environment for trouble - how long before they blamed the Jews for the chaos they'd created ?
Last time they did the real socialist thing, ( which Blair didn't ), Dennis Healey hadn't alienated the USA, so they could go begging to the imf to bail them out, but these nutters would be so openly hostile to the free world that this wouldn't be an option.
Who would be blamed ? Who gets blamed every time a dictator wants a scapegoat , and this one knows he'd have a sympathetic audience amongst his supporters ?

Are these realistic fears ? Who knows, but they're real fears, and so they'll have real effects

If someone is scared of something and they don't know why, what can you do to stop that? If some Jewish people are going to vote against Corbyn specifically because they think he is going to cause harm to their way of life then what can anybody do about that. In my opinion it is nonsense and I think if such seemingly outlandish claims were made by any other minority group or about any other political party they would be laughed off here and they certainly would get the column inches and air time that this gets.

It probably will have an effect on the result, like thousands of other things.

I found this story funny and unsettling in equal measure - https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/m...green-1.491017

[RonnieBird]

That's remarkable Eric because I myself received a telephone call this week from an old friend asking me to exercise a proxy vote for him and his wife !
He explained that due to the short notice election they haven't got time to send out postal vote forms so they're advising people to use proxy votes. I hardly dare mention this because it seems so convenient to my argument , but they expressed a wish to do all they could to prevent Corbyn being elected - I certainly wouldn't have mentioned it but I had to when I read what you posted !

[trampie09]

That's remarkable Eric because I myself received a telephone call this week from an old friend asking me to exercise a proxy vote for him and his wife !
He explained that due to the short notice election they haven't got time to send out postal vote forms so they're advising people to use proxy votes. I hardly dare mention this because it seems so convenient to my argument , but they expressed a wish to do all they could to prevent Corbyn being elected - I certainly wouldn't have mentioned it but I had to when I read what you posted !

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/ope...ned-be-jewish/
Are they looking in the wrong direction ?
https://www.thejc.com/comment/commen...fears-1.491022
Just read the last paragraph for the punchline !

[RonnieBird]

You quote two viewpoints. You and they might be right, but as I said to Eric, the point remains that opinion within both the Jewry and general public seems to have reached a critical mass against labour and Corbyn.
It might change with a new leader, but for the moment they're not trusted

[RonnieBird]

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presente...-labour-party/


A caller to LBC speaks of labour anti semitism . Worth a listen

[jon1959]

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presente...-labour-party/


A caller to LBC speaks of labour anti semitism . Worth a listen

And the comments below the article are worth a read.

[RonnieBird]

I'm not sure what you're saying Jon - that the victims are lying/ very sensitive , or that they deserve it ?

[jon1959]

I'm not sure what you're saying Jon - that the victims are lying/ very sensitive , or that they deserve it ?

None of those things. You are promoting the views of Jason, and long-time resident of Jerusalem attacking the Labour Party (although saying in his view that rising anti-semitism in the UK/Europe long pre-dates Corbyn). The comments under the article demolish his argument and challenge the conflation of Israeli state actions and experiences with those of Jewish people on the streets of European cities. It is what you do too - so no wonder you like what he says. Unless it comes from Netanyahu or Trump the Jewish Chronicle takes (rightly) a very dim view of that type of conflation. The label it normally applies is 'anti semitic trope' and usually backs it up with a reference to the full IHRA definition with examples - the one now adopted by the Labour Party, but not strangely by the Tories!

(I think the IHRA definition examples are rubbish - over half refer to the state of Israel - but critics can't have it both ways!)

[trampie09]

None of those things. You are promoting the views of Jason, and long-time resident of Jerusalem attacking the Labour Party (although saying in his view that rising anti-semitism in the UK/Europe long pre-dates Corbyn). The comments under the article demolish his argument and challenge the conflation of Israeli state actions and experiences with those of Jewish people on the streets of European cities. It is what you do too - so no wonder you like what he says. Unless it comes from Netanyahu or Trump the Jewish Chronicle takes (rightly) a very dim view of that type of conflation. The label it normally applies is 'anti semitic trope' and usually backs it up with a reference to the full IHRA definition with examples - the one now adopted by the Labour Party, but not strangely by the Tories!

(I think the IHRA definition examples are rubbish - over half refer to the state of Israel - but critics can't have it both ways!)

I agree.
https://www.thecanary.co/uk/2018/07/...-defined-them/

[RonnieBird]

Of course it predates Corbyn but the point is that in labour it has an official "volks" Party to attach itself to.
A charismatic but probably insane "leader" who promises impossible wealth to the lowest and most unproductive parts of society and has used procedural blocking tactics to engineer power in the state parliament .
He's already setting the Jews up to absorb the anger when his mad claims prove false and unprecedented poverty follows.

When he's caught being anti Semitic he says it's a plot by Jews and Israel to falsely incriminate him and when his mad schemes for pay without work and free everything lead to bankruptcy we can guess that he'll say that's a Jewish conspiracy too.

[Eric Cartman]

Of course it predates Corbyn but the point is that in labour it has an official "volks" Party to attach itself to.
A charismatic but probably insane "leader" who promises impossible wealth to the lowest and most unproductive parts of society and has used procedural blocking tactics to engineer power in the state parliament .
He's already setting the Jews up to absorb the anger when his mad claims prove false and unprecedented poverty follows.

When he's caught being anti Semitic he says it's a plot by Jews and Israel to falsely incriminate him and when his mad schemes for pay without work and free everything lead to bankruptcy we can guess that he'll say that's a Jewish conspiracy too.

Now you are just making shit up.

[trampie09]

That is a ridiculous last post RonnieBird it leads me to wonder if you think Corbyn will do what Edward the 1st ?

[RonnieBird]

Build castles in Wales ? Subdue the Scots ?
Actually of course he did also kill lots of Jews , so I expect that's what you mean.

On the other hand, and knowing that you're a bit of a Welsh nationalist, I wonder whether you fear that he might present a secret love child he's produced with Dianne Abbot and invest him as Prince of Wales ?

[RonnieBird]

Now you are just making shit up.

Some might call it speculating based upon the actions of previous nutters when they got power.

[trampie09]

Build castles in Wales ? Subdue the Scots ?
Actually of course he did also kill lots of Jews , so I expect that's what you mean.

On the other hand, and knowing that you're a bit of a Welsh nationalist, I wonder whether you fear that he might present a secret love child he's produced with Dianne Abbot and invest him as Prince of Wales ?

Unlike you I don't fear a man that has spent his whole political career fighting racism of all kinds.

[RonnieBird]

Unlike you I don't fear a man that has spent his whole political career fighting racism of all kinds.

I really didn't know that Edward Longshanks did that Trampie .