Too much Gas

[JamesWales]

I beg to differ, he's lumped all people of a certain age (myself included) into one category. I happen to think he has a point about how the babyboomer generation have had things their own way nearly all of their lives and have an air of entitlement to them - I thought that before Doucas started posting on here as well.

I don't take offence at what he says as much as I did to being called a racist on here this week.

I am not sure you were called a racist so much as it being pointed out you used what many consider to be a racist term. For the avoidance of doubt, I don't think you are a racist. And you weren't as personally offended no doubt, because Doucas didn't wish death upon you, merely upon people of your age who happen to think or vote differently to him (and we have supposed anti-fascists on here who endorse his posts!!) We know he isn't literally wishing death upon people - he is probably sat in his pants at home, but language does matter.

Nonetheless, I am sure now that you understand that it is offensive to be labelled something that you are not that it should strike you that some of the accusations and wishes expressed by Doucas are deeply offensive, as well as being completely inaccurate. (And you went out of your way to back up Splott Parker in endorsing them, remember)

It was a debate on gas prices and it turned into wishing death, gross generalisations, rants about Brexit voters and Tories and all the rest.

Many of us have had that kind of ignorant abuse thrown around for about 6 years. It's not acceptable, it's weird as f**k and it should be called out.

Anyway, what about gas eh?!

[the other bob wilson]

I am not sure you were called a racist so much as it being pointed out you used what many consider to be a racist term. For the avoidance of doubt, I don't think you are a racist. And you weren't as personally offended no doubt, because Doucas didn't wish death upon you, merely upon people of your age who happen to think or vote differently to him (and we have supposed anti-fascists on here who endorse his posts!!) We know he isn't literally wishing death upon people - he is probably sat in his pants at home, but language does matter.

Nonetheless, I am sure now that you understand that it is offensive to be labelled something that you are not that it should strike you that some of the accusations and wishes expressed by Doucas are deeply offensive, as well as being completely inaccurate. (And you went out of your way to back up Splott Parker in endorsing them, remember)

It was a debate on gas prices and it turned into wishing death, gross generalisations, rants about Brexit voters and Tories and all the rest.

Many of us have had that kind of ignorant abuse thrown around for about 6 years. It's not acceptable, it's weird as f**k and it should be called out.

Anyway, what about gas eh?!

I think it’s important to try and show Doucas that not all people of a certain age are like he thinks they are, but I was telling my nephew and nieces a decade ago that they’ve got little to thank my generation for - they’re all around the thirty mark now and their lot is much worse now than it was when I told them that. When I think back to what my life was like at thirty, it was a doddle compared to what they have to face up to now. So, although Doucas goes too far at times for me, I do look at the world and what it’s become in the last six and seven years and think that it might start to be a better place again when the generation I belong to are either dead and gone or there’s not enough of us left to exercise the amount of power we have at the moment.

As for the gas price rise, it’s obscene and, although I don’t think you can get too party political about why it’s the price it is, I think the UK Government’s (don’t know how the Welsh Government responded so can’t comment on them) non action yesterday was also obscene and a disgrace which I hope voters remember come polling day.

[JamesWales]

I think it’s important to try and show Doucas that not all people of a certain age are like he thinks they are, but I was telling my nephew and nieces a decade ago that they’ve got little to thank my generation for - they’re all around the thirty mark now and their lot is much worse now than it was when I told them that. When I think back to what my life was like at thirty, it was a doddle compared to what they have to face up to now. So, although Doucas goes too far at times for me, I do look at the world and what it’s become in the last six and seven years and think that it might start to be a better place again when the generation I belong to are either dead and gone or there’s not enough of us left to exercise the amount of power we have at the moment.

As for the gas price rise, it’s obscene and, although I don’t think you can get too party political about why it’s the price it is, I think the UK Government’s (don’t know how the Welsh Government responded so can’t comment on them) non action yesterday was also obscene and a disgrace which I hope voters remember come polling day.

A much more reasonable approach and whilst there is some I would disagree with, there is much I agree on too.

Enjoy the game today

[Wash DC Blue]

Some caustic bile on this thread alright.

How do those equating Brexit Voters as Tight Wing Tories feel about Mick Lynch, Eddie Dempsey, Paul Embery, Dennis Skinner and the late, great Tony Benn?

[John Buchanan]

Some caustic bile on this thread alright.

How do those equating Brexit Voters as Tight Wing Tories feel about Mick Lynch, Eddie Dempsey, Paul Embery, Dennis Skinner and the late, great Tony Benn?

Tony Benn was streets ahead of the others. A top man torn to shreds by the media.

[Wash DC Blue]

Tony Benn was streets ahead of the others. A top man torn to shreds by the media.

He was a Brexiteer though John.
Pro Brexit/Anti EU = Bad Mad apparently.

[John Buchanan]

He was a Brexiteer though John.
Pro Brexit/Anti EU = Bad Mad apparently.

Nobody's perfect.

[jon1959]

Some caustic bile on this thread alright.

How do those equating Brexit Voters as Tight Wing Tories feel about Mick Lynch, Eddie Dempsey, Paul Embery, Dennis Skinner and the late, great Tony Benn?

People voted for Brexit for a lot of reasons. I think the vast majority were influenced by their dislike of immigration and Polish plumbers, a feeling of alienation that they were persuaded was the fault of European bureaucratic elites (the tabloid press ran a 50 year campaign that to no one’s surprise worked) and a belief that the UK was subsidising others and the money could be better used at home (the NHS lie on Johnson’s bus).

But there were also a number of people on the left who voted Brexit in a re-run of the 1970s referendum. I know a lot who still think the EU is the EEC bosses club. I think they are wrong as do the majority of the labour movement who campaigned for Remain in 2016, but against joining in the 1970s. It is still a capitalist bloc but the social, environmental and employment protections that have been achieved (often by pan-European campaigns by civic and trade union groups) are worth holding onto.

In my opinion the main objective of the Leave campaign (not their voters) was to create a low regulation economy and an even more insecure and demoralised workforce, for the benefit of employers and shareholders. The Dennis Skinner’s of our world who voted Leave didn’t want that but made it more likely.

[John Buchanan]

People voted for Brexit for a lot of reasons. I think the vast majority were influenced by their dislike of immigration and Polish plumbers, a feeling of alienation that they were persuaded was the fault of European bureaucratic elites (the tabloid press ran a 50 year campaign that to no one’s surprise worked) and a belief that the UK was subsidising others and the money could be better used at home (the NHS lie on Johnson’s bus).

But there were also a number of people on the left who voted Brexit in a re-run of the 1970s referendum. I know a lot who still think the EU is the EEC bosses club. I think they are wrong as do the majority of the labour movement who campaigned for Remain in 2016, but against joining in the 1970s. It is still a capitalist bloc but the social, environmental and employment protections that have been achieved (often by pan-European campaigns by civic and trade union groups) are worth holding onto.

In my opinion the main objective of the Leave campaign (not their voters) was to create a low regulation economy and an even more insecure and demoralised workforce, for the benefit of employers and shareholders. The Dennis Skinner’s of our world who voted Leave didn’t want that but made it more likely.

Singapore on the Thames. The ultimate goal for the current crop of right wingers.

[Organ Morgan.]

There's some relief on the way for all UK households beginning in October.

When are the second cost-of-living payment and £400 energy rebate due? - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61592496

- How will the £400 energy discount be paid?

All UK households will get a grant which will reduce energy bills by £400 from October.

Initially, this was going to be a £200 reduction paid back in instalments over five years. But the discount was subsequently doubled, and no longer has to be repaid.

In other words, from October, everyone's energy bill will be cut by £400. This will be applied over six months, with a reduction of £66 in October and November, and £67 every month between December and March 2023.

The discount will be made automatically by energy suppliers in England, Scotland and Wales. There is no need to apply. -

[Doucas]

Why is it hysterical to call out the kind of stuff Doucas posts, which you then go out of your way to endorse?

You are just enabling the poisoning of debate and even endorsing it. And I got accused of picking on him! Incredible!

The only reason you are both okay with it is because the hatred he espouses is not against you or people with your personal opinions. That doesn't make it acceptable.

The hatred I spout? You literally defend fascism at every opportunity. You cried your eyes out and screamed racism because someone used the word gammon. You repeat buzzwords you read in the Daily Mail, a newspaper made to manipulate the dim and elderly.

I post stat after stat after stat, I ask basic questions and you either reply 'you're lying' or just ignore them.

I thought people like you liked people who 'tell it as it is'

Well here's the truth, a lot of people my age have given up trying to reason with old gammon like you, you refuse to listen, you don't care about climate change, you don't care about the utter misery put on people by the votes you make. Even basic things like electricity and gas bills being being cheaper in other countries you just deny deny deny.

You defend the worst government in my lifetime with every breath. Anyone who stands up you is described as unhinged, I've seen you do it about 5 times on this forum.to various people.

I've worked for a decade in anti poverty related work and I'm so so tired of out of touch people like you denying this is getting worse and worse.

You talk about the twitter bubble, you're in the old man gammon bubble copying and pasting your opinions from the daily mail. You present yourself as an enlightened centrist but we all see you for what you are.

You would have voted for the nazis if you were in Germany in the early 20th century. Tory scum.

[Doucas]

The hatred I spout? You literally defend fascism at every opportunity. You cried your eyes out and screamed racism because someone used the word gammon. You repeat buzzwords you read in the Daily Mail, a newspaper made to manipulate the dim and elderly.

I post stat after stat after stat, I ask basic questions and you either reply 'you're lying' or just ignore them.

I thought people like you liked people who 'tell it as it is'

Well here's the truth, a lot of people my age have given up trying to reason with old gammon like you, you refuse to listen, you don't care about climate change, you don't care about the utter misery put on people by the votes you make. Even basic things like electricity and gas bills being being cheaper in other countries you just deny deny deny.

You defend the worst government in my lifetime with every breath. Anyone who stands up you is described as unhinged, I've seen you do it about 5 times on this forum.to various people.

I've worked for a decade in anti poverty related work and I'm so so tired of out of touch people like you denying this is getting worse and worse.

You talk about the twitter bubble, you're in the old man gammon bubble copying and pasting your opinions from the daily mail. You present yourself as an enlightened centrist but we all see you for what you are.

You would have voted for the nazis if you were in Germany in the early 20th century. Tory scum.

**TRIGGER WARNING FOR SNOWFLAKES**

To add to this, young people are terrified about climate change and horrified about the complete lack of urgency coming from older generations. You refuse to listen and as a result we have no choice but to wait for them to die out, will probably be too late unfortunately despite there being a left wing to right wing ratio of about 3:1 of people my age and younger.

You're for free speech until its something you don't like, the truth.

Stop trying to cancel me.

[JamesWales]

**TRIGGER WARNING FOR SNOWFLAKES**

To add to this, young people are terrified about climate change and horrified about the complete lack of urgency coming from older generations. You refuse to listen and as a result we have no choice but to wait for them to die out, will probably be too late unfortunately despite there being a left wing to right wing ratio of about 3:1 of people my age and younger.

You're for free speech until its something you don't like, the truth.

Stop trying to cancel me.

You really are the most repulsive and ignorant poster on here. Nearly everything you have written above is incorrect. If you work for a charity, that really is quite something.

You should be kicked off here for the endless bile you post.

[JamesWales]

The hatred I spout? You literally defend fascism at every opportunity. You cried your eyes out and screamed racism because someone used the word gammon. You repeat buzzwords you read in the Daily Mail, a newspaper made to manipulate the dim and elderly.

I post stat after stat after stat, I ask basic questions and you either reply 'you're lying' or just ignore them.

I thought people like you liked people who 'tell it as it is'

Well here's the truth, a lot of people my age have given up trying to reason with old gammon like you, you refuse to listen, you don't care about climate change, you don't care about the utter misery put on people by the votes you make. Even basic things like electricity and gas bills being being cheaper in other countries you just deny deny deny.

You defend the worst government in my lifetime with every breath. Anyone who stands up you is described as unhinged, I've seen you do it about 5 times on this forum.to various people.

I've worked for a decade in anti poverty related work and I'm so so tired of out of touch people like you denying this is getting worse and worse.

You talk about the twitter bubble, you're in the old man gammon bubble copying and pasting your opinions from the daily mail. You present yourself as an enlightened centrist but we all see you for what you are.

You would have voted for the nazis if you were in Germany in the early 20th century. Tory scum.

You really are the most repulsive and ignorant poster on here. Nearly everything you have written above is incorrect. Just flat out false in most cases, or gross distortions, and you sprinkle endless insults on top if it. There are good and bad on the left and right, and you really are showing yourself to be an example of the nasty left. If you work for a charity, that really is quite something.

You should be kicked off here for the endless bile you post.

[A Quiet Monkfish]

The hatred I spout? You literally defend fascism at every opportunity. You cried your eyes out and screamed racism because someone used the word gammon. You repeat buzzwords you read in the Daily Mail, a newspaper made to manipulate the dim and elderly.

I post stat after stat after stat, I ask basic questions and you either reply 'you're lying' or just ignore them.

I thought people like you liked people who 'tell it as it is'

Well here's the truth, a lot of people my age have given up trying to reason with old gammon like you, you refuse to listen, you don't care about climate change, you don't care about the utter misery put on people by the votes you make. Even basic things like electricity and gas bills being being cheaper in other countries you just deny deny deny.

You defend the worst government in my lifetime with every breath. Anyone who stands up you is described as unhinged, I've seen you do it about 5 times on this forum.to various people.

I've worked for a decade in anti poverty related work and I'm so so tired of out of touch people like you denying this is getting worse and worse.

You talk about the twitter bubble, you're in the old man gammon bubble copying and pasting your opinions from the daily mail. You present yourself as an enlightened centrist but we all see you for what you are.

You would have voted for the nazis if you were in Germany in the early 20th century. Tory scum.

You're off again. You do realise you're bordering on the unstable.

[Citizen's Nephew]

You really are the most repulsive and ignorant poster on here. Nearly everything you have written above is incorrect. Just flat out false in most cases, or gross distortions, and you sprinkle endless insults on top if it. There are good and bad on the left and right, and you really are showing yourself to be an example of the nasty left. If you work for a charity, that really is quite something.

You should be kicked off here for the endless bile you post.

You need to take a break mate.

I'm not seeing what you're seeing here. What I am seeing is your Don Quixote ad hominem attacks and yes, you'll hate this, but you're acting like a bully.

There's an awful lot I agree with in Doucas's posts. I understand his anger and frustration and am making reasonable adjustments for that. There really have been some repulsive posts/posters on here since I came back from my travels in the late Spring early Summer. They're still here and ironically are not ranting and raving in the manner with which you are posting.

I think Doucas has some good points as I think you do too and I think you need to back off with your aggressive tactics which do not make you a level-headed debater but more the raving lunatic.

If you want Doucas kicked off, then you want me kicked off too. That's how stupid this argument has become.

Just look back at your replies to me, for example, and just how many start off with No!?

You're shutting someone down. There are many posts over the months which have warranted a stand and aggressive argument.

I'm not defending either of your tactics btw. Just trying to help.

I've had the melt downs and been overly-emotional at times so I'm not even taking a holier-than-though approach. I've had right mares of threads, so I'm not painting myself as a champion of virtue.

Take a break James. I think that's good advice and it's coming from a place of love brother.

Doucas, I understand your anger and support your frustration brother, but you've got to take some control and responsibility too.

You guys, come here, you both need some love and hugs.

[JamesWales]

You need to take a break mate.

I'm not seeing what you're seeing here. What I am seeing is your Don Quixote ad hominem attacks and yes, you'll hate this, but you're acting like a bully.

There's an awful lot I agree with in Doucas's posts. I understand his anger and frustration and am making reasonable adjustments for that. There really have been some repulsive posts/posters on here since I came back from my travels in the late Spring early Summer. They're still here and ironically are not ranting and raving in the manner with which you are posting.

I think Doucas has some good points as I think you do too and I think you need to back off with your aggressive tactics which do not make you a level-headed debater but more the raving lunatic.

If you want Doucas kicked off, then you want me kicked off too. That's how stupid this argument has become.

Just look back at your replies to me, for example, and just how many start off with No!?

You're shutting someone down. There are many posts over the months which have warranted a stand and aggressive argument.

I'm not defending either of your tactics btw. Just trying to help.

I've had the melt downs and been overly-emotional at times so I'm not even taking a holier-than-though approach. I've had right mares of threads, so I'm not painting myself as a champion of virtue.

Take a break James. I think that's good advice and it's coming from a place of love brother.

Doucas, I understand your anger and support your frustration brother, but you've got to take some control and responsibility too.

You guys, come here, you both need some love and hugs.

I appreciate what you are saying, but it absolutely is right to call out his language and abuse and people need to be firm on that in my opinion.

He is making generalisations, spreading lies, labelling people scum, accusing them of supporting genocidal governments, wishing for people to die early etc. I've never seen you or anyone else on here for that matter do that.

We all have legitimate opinions, but you need to debate them in a reasonable manner. Many will think his opinions cause heartache for people too. We have generally worse social statistics here in Wales - maybe how he votes is the problem? People will think that, but they won't spread insults whilst doing it. Doing what he has done above (on a thread about gas prices of all things!) is absolutely not on.

I'm very happy to call him out for what he is and tbh I am glad others are now too.

People don't come on here to be personally insulted or read about how family members are scum or to have early deaths wished upon people.

[blue matt]

what a thread, a few have come out of this not looking that good

If Lither was spouting the same posts, a fair few would be going mad and " calling him out " asking why he wasnt banned etc etc, yet it seems if the poster is on your " side " you feel the need to back them , wishing people dead / calling them scum because they vote for " the other party " or " Brexit ", come on, everyone has got to agree thats going to far, well done JamesWales for calling it out

[jon1959]

what a thread, a few have come out of this not looking that good

If Lither was spouting the same posts, a fair few would be going mad and " calling him out " asking why he wasnt banned etc etc, yet it seems if the poster is on your " side " you feel the need to back them , wishing people dead / calling them scum because they vote for " the other party " or " Brexit ", come on, everyone has got to agree thats going to far, well done JamesWales for calling it out

I agree that Doucas has gone over a line a few times in this thread with language that cannot be justified, but please save us from the one eyed sanctimonious bollux that you and James specialise in.

You were happy to leave Goslow’s Grenfell candle burning on the site for weeks and you have no concern for racist, Nazi propaganda taking root. Not a squeak!

But if someone goes OTT in challenging your core conservative beliefs you get a touch of the vapours! Citizens Nephew is right. As is Splot Parker and Paul Evans. This is a thread that has focused on the selfish decisions of a generation with relative political and financial power - screwing the world for those that come after. Many of us on both sides of the argument are part of that generation and some of us share a sense of responsibility and shame.

And to repeat what others have said, Doucas is not wishing death on individuals of a certain age, but a generational change so that other values and priorities might come to the top. It will happen naturally. You don’t have to feel so personally offended by the prospect!

[the other bob wilson]

I agree that Doucas has gone over a line a few times in this thread with language that cannot be justified, but please save us from the one eyed sanctimonious bollux that you and James specialise in.

You were happy to leave Goslow’s Grenfell candle burning on the site for weeks and you have no concern for racist, Nazi propaganda taking root. Not a squeak!

But if someone goes OTT in challenging your core conservative beliefs you get a touch of the vapours! Citizens Nephew is right. As is Splot Parker and Paul Evans. This is a thread that has focused on the selfish decisions of a generation with relative political and financial power - screwing the world for those that come after. Many of us on both sides of the argument are part of that generation and some of us share a sense of responsibility and shame.

And to repeat what others have said, Doucas is not wishing death on individuals of a certain age, but a generational change so that other values and priorities might come to the top. It will happen naturally. You don’t have to feel so personally offended by the prospect!

Good post Jon.

[splott parker]

I agree that Doucas has gone over a line a few times in this thread with language that cannot be justified, but please save us from the one eyed sanctimonious bollux that you and James specialise in.

You were happy to leave Goslow’s Grenfell candle burning on the site for weeks and you have no concern for racist, Nazi propaganda taking root. Not a squeak!

But if someone goes OTT in challenging your core conservative beliefs you get a touch of the vapours! Citizens Nephew is right. As is Splot Parker and Paul Evans. This is a thread that has focused on the selfish decisions of a generation with relative political and financial power - screwing the world for those that come after. Many of us on both sides of the argument are part of that generation and some of us share a sense of responsibility and shame.

And to repeat what others have said, Doucas is not wishing death on individuals of a certain age, but a generational change so that other values and priorities might come to the top. It will happen naturally. You don’t have to feel so personally offended by the prospect!

Thank you, how some couldn’t differentiate between ‘wishing death’ and ‘natural inevitability’ beats me. There’s no way out of it, we’re all going to shuffle off and leave things to those remaining, having a ‘oh no I’m not and that’s an awful thing to say’ attitude aren’t grasping how things work.

[goats]

I agree that Doucas has gone over a line a few times in this thread with language that cannot be justified, but please save us from the one eyed sanctimonious bollux that you and James specialise in.

You were happy to leave Goslow’s Grenfell candle burning on the site for weeks and you have no concern for racist, Nazi propaganda taking root. Not a squeak!

But if someone goes OTT in challenging your core conservative beliefs you get a touch of the vapours! Citizens Nephew is right. As is Splot Parker and Paul Evans. This is a thread that has focused on the selfish decisions of a generation with relative political and financial power - screwing the world for those that come after. Many of us on both sides of the argument are part of that generation and some of us share a sense of responsibility and shame.

And to repeat what others have said, Doucas is not wishing death on individuals of a certain age, but a generational change so that other values and priorities might come to the top. It will happen naturally. You don’t have to feel so personally offended by the prospect!

Peoples views and political opinions do seem to change as they get older also, not just more cemented either. Everyone thinks they can change the world in their early 20’s, go to Glastonbury bla bla, go on marches against whatever government is in power ( poll tax riots/bush and Blair’s war in Iraq etc) but often seem to mellow out when they have kids and responsibilities and bills to pay. I imagine by the time your in your 50’s and 60’s it could change further but I’m not there yet……I guess by then oldies have more pressing concerns?

[John Buchanan]

Peoples views and political opinions do seem to change as they get older also, not just more cemented either. Everyone thinks they can change the world in their early 20’s, go to Glastonbury bla bla, go on marches against whatever government is in power ( poll tax riots/bush and Blair’s war in Iraq etc) but often seem to mellow out when they have kids and responsibilities and bills to pay. I imagine by the time your in your 50’s and 60’s it could change further but I’m not there yet……I guess by then oldies have more pressing concerns?

They do. They (we, or many of us) become more reflective and concerned about what they will eventually leave behind for the next generation. What impact, if any they and their peers have made on society. As evidenced (and misunderstood by some of the younger posters) on some of the posts I see on this forum.
But hey, we at least got to see Buchanan's 40 yard screamer and can occasionally celebrate going the whole night without getting up to have a wee.

[William Treseder’s Mam]

I agree that Doucas has gone over a line a few times in this thread with language that cannot be justified, but please save us from the one eyed sanctimonious bollux that you and James specialise in.

You were happy to leave Goslow’s Grenfell candle burning on the site for weeks and you have no concern for racist, Nazi propaganda taking root. Not a squeak!

But if someone goes OTT in challenging your core conservative beliefs you get a touch of the vapours! Citizens Nephew is right. As is Splot Parker and Paul Evans. This is a thread that has focused on the selfish decisions of a generation with relative political and financial power - screwing the world for those that come after. Many of us on both sides of the argument are part of that generation and some of us share a sense of responsibility and shame.

And to repeat what others have said, Doucas is not wishing death on individuals of a certain age, but a generational change so that other values and priorities might come to the top. It will happen naturally. You don’t have to feel so personally offended by the prospect!

Amazing post John, got his attitude and way of moderating bang to rights.

[bobh]

The hatred I spout? You literally defend fascism at every opportunity. You cried your eyes out and screamed racism because someone used the word gammon. You repeat buzzwords you read in the Daily Mail, a newspaper made to manipulate the dim and elderly.

I post stat after stat after stat, I ask basic questions and you either reply 'you're lying' or just ignore them.

I thought people like you liked people who 'tell it as it is'

Well here's the truth, a lot of people my age have given up trying to reason with old gammon like you, you refuse to listen, you don't care about climate change, you don't care about the utter misery put on people by the votes you make. Even basic things like electricity and gas bills being being cheaper in other countries you just deny deny deny.

You defend the worst government in my lifetime with every breath. Anyone who stands up you is described as unhinged, I've seen you do it about 5 times on this forum.to various people.

I've worked for a decade in anti poverty related work and I'm so so tired of out of touch people like you denying this is getting worse and worse.

You talk about the twitter bubble, you're in the old man gammon bubble copying and pasting your opinions from the daily mail. You present yourself as an enlightened centrist but we all see you for what you are.

You would have voted for the nazis if you were in Germany in the early 20th century. Tory scum.

Godwin's Law has been triggered.
You lose the argument.