Tough Love? Is it a thing and does it have a place?

[blue matt]

I stress I'm not being confrontational when I ask 'so why is it OK in football?' It's still the workplace.

because they enter the professional / elite / high performance sports world with the knowledge that it is like that, it isn't a secret, its deemed by the professional / elite / high performance sports world to be acceptable, you have to be strong mentally to deal with it ( from my personal experience on it, ive seen it a number of Times, even with U16 netball players, its happened to my daughter, I won't bore people with a recent story ( thats a 1st eh ) but she has got in the car and been quitting elite / HP netball, but a few days pass and she is back, now it doesn't happen as she is desensitised to it, its part of the world she is in, as Davey Jones used to say " dust yourself down and go again " its a saying she actually uses now )

[Citizen's Nephew]

If there is such a thing as 'tough love' then it has to be both parts.

Being tough as in demanding, setting high standards, pushing, highlighting strengths and weaknesses with no flannel. Showing love as in giving time, care, support and energy to improving someone's performance and well-being. I don't have a problem with any of that.

If it is tough without the love bit, I have a problem. And if the tough is really abuse or bullying, I have a problem.

There is not much point having this discussion on a Cardiff message board without bringing it back to Morison. I am not comfortable with his bluntness and brutality when discussing individual players, but I don't think he is a bully or is doing it all for effect. He also appears to genuinely work with the players after to review their performance and agree ways of improving. If he is going to use that approach he could and should temper his words to the media and fans a bit, and he should also apply that approach to the whole squad (established players as well as ex Academy) and to his own performance.

There is a danger of self confidence coming across as arrogance, and of directness or bluntness appearing as bullying. It is a fine line and he has made a few mistakes on timing and tone, but overall I think he has done pretty well.

I respect that Jon and yes, I take your point re the message board and Morison. There is though a generic question relating to the tough love part. Who decides what's abuse or bullying at Cardiff City? Let's say for a moment a player decided Morison was bullying. Where does that player go with that complaint? What's the management structure? Is HR in football even feasible when the manager has such enormous power and authority? Imagine your boss having that level of power over you with very little opportunity to voice concerns.

An example I can think of recently would be Eni Aluko and Mark Sampson.

[delmbox]

I'm assuming even the biggest tough love advocates think this treatment of a 15 year old is a step too far? https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60417450

[Citizen's Nephew]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/60430838

This is exactly what I mean about expected levels of privacy. Why make all this public? Am I being biased when I say it sounds defensive? I don't know anymore. I do think he needs to stop talking about individuals and talk more about the team.

[Bluebirdman Of Alcathays]

I was typing my last post before I'd seen a whole load of other replies so apologies for not acknowledging those. I will get around to it I promise.

No, let them sweat.

[The Hooded Claw]

Do you think that footballers tend not to speak out if they consider themselves unfairly treated because it’s a closed shop type of industry?

[delmbox]

Do you think that footballers tend not to speak out if they consider themselves unfairly treated because it’s a closed shop type of industry?

I'd imagine it's because they know that there's a lot of people that think being paid loads buys you out of feeling anything human

[Citizen's Nephew]

Do you think that footballers tend not to speak out if they consider themselves unfairly treated because it’s a closed shop type of industry?

Yes, because it is. I love going to matches, but there's an awful lot about the game I thoroughly dislike. We brush an awful lot under the carpet as fans and appear blind to what's right in front of us.

[Citizen's Nephew]

I'd imagine it's because they know that there's a lot of people that think being paid loads buys you out of feeling anything human

I really like that comment because I think it's spot on. It's interesting that we use the term elite sport as if that's a reason to ignore all the workplace issues that go on (I'm not pointing any fingers because we're all guilty of it to varying degrees). Seeing players as people makes us feel uncomfortable. It stops us from hiding behind chants and spoils our day out. It's meant to be entertainment and escapism. We consume football like so many other things and therefore dehumanise it. Condensed down to the extreme it's blue versus red.

[xsnaggle]

You know, this really does highlight the problems with contract and employment law in football. I hadn't thought of it this way.

The thing is though, I understand the frustration you're communicating because we all know players who have 'played' the system. But don't we know people like that in other jobs too? The part about refusing to pay because of a 'self-inflicted' injury is a difficult one and would be really hard to legislate for. Do you think that a player claiming constructive dismissal because they'd been publicly humiliated and that their performance i.e. their job was adversely affected could result in significant compensation? I know that was a long question!

I wasn't thinking of humiliation in respect of not playing, nor was I thinking of "self inflicted" injury particularly. I meant players who just don't bother to keep fit for example. They are in a job which by its very nature requires them to keep a certain standard of fitness and if they don't or if they do something else which the company finds unacceptable why cannot the company (Club) give them notice to quit.
It does happen in other professions. If someone is employed as a welder and his welding is consistently not up to standard he can be dismissed with a week or a month's notice depending on his pay regime.
As for the 'public humiliation' question, I think that to try to claim constructive dismissal after 1 such incident would be pushing it, but if it happened serially, such as the player being able to demonstrate that the boss only asks him to do things so he can then humiliate him, whether because there is some personal problem between them or because the boss is using him constantly as a reminder to others of what they will get if they don't behave, that would be a different matter. However I can't see that second scenario being played out in reality.
If we look at the Cardiff City examples, for Watters to be able to make such a claim he would have to show that he was being singled out, which given the treatment of Davies would be nigh on impossible and also to show that what happened made it impossible to do his job, and again Davies' come back could demonstrate the opposite.
It may be judged that the manager was less than thoughtful but he can equally claim that he wouldn't have said anything if he wasn't asked, that the league require him to give interview before and after games and he was just giving an honest answer to question. telling the truth.
It may not have been tactful but it was blatantly honest. I think a claim for constructive dismissal would have a hard time standing up.

[Citizen's Nephew]

I wasn't thinking of humiliation in respect of not playing, nor was I thinking of "self inflicted" injury particularly. I meant players who just don't bother to keep fit for example. They are in a job which by its very nature requires them to keep a certain standard of fitness and if they don't or if they do something else which the company finds unacceptable why cannot the company (Club) give them notice to quit.
It does happen in other professions. If someone is employed as a welder and his welding is consistently not up to standard he can be dismissed with a week or a month's notice depending on his pay regime.
As for the 'public humiliation' question, I think that to try to claim constructive dismissal after 1 such incident would be pushing it, but if it happened serially, such as the player being able to demonstrate that the boss only asks him to do things so he can then humiliate him, whether because there is some personal problem between them or because the boss is using him constantly as a reminder to others of what they will get if they don't behave, that would be a different matter. However I can't see that second scenario being played out in reality.
If we look at the Cardiff City examples, for Watters to be able to make such a claim he would have to show that he was being singled out, which given the treatment of Davies would be nigh on impossible and also to show that what happened made it impossible to do his job, and again Davies' come back could demonstrate the opposite.
It may be judged that the manager was less than thoughtful but he can equally claim that he wouldn't have said anything if he wasn't asked, that the league require him to give interview before and after games and he was just giving an honest answer to question. telling the truth.
It may not have been tactful but it was blatantly honest. I think a claim for constructive dismissal would have a hard time standing up.

I agree with all of that. I think it covers my take on the complications surrounding a constructive dismissal claim. I like that you raised the issue of his contractual obligations to give an interview and that in itself is why he said anything.

Maybe it could be argued that even though he was contractually obliged to give a press interview, he didn't need to say what he said and could have given another 'truthful' answer which didn't personalise. However, I'm just being picky because I agree with your employment law summary.

Just off-topic(ish) you mentioned the welder scenario and the financial settlement upon dismissal. I'm guessing the key words are 'not consistently up to standard'. My understanding is that an employee would need to be given the opportunity within a fair time frame to rectify this. The company would have to determine 'why?' I realise I'm referring to contracted employees and not self-employed contractors. Am I right that there would need to be a set of procedures in place to deal with this?

This brings me right back to what are the procedures in a football club and with professional players. Does anyone have any knowledge of this? I agree with you over the frustration of a player 'becoming' unfit but what if that's because of mental illness? Even more complicated, what if it was mental illness as a result of bullying? I'm just throwing this stuff out there because it's complicated. Duty of care is another factor.

[Wash DC Blue]

I'm here from Downtown
I'm here from Mitch and Murray
And I'm here on a mission of mercy.

https://youtu.be/elrnAl6ygeM

[The Lone Gunman]

I feel Morrison definitely did the right thing in taking him off, we could have easily gone in at half time one nil down otherwise...

Hmm. Interesting.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Hmm. Interesting.

Come on. You know that strikers are the biggest cause of goals conceded.

[The Hooded Claw]

The other big difference for players (as opposed to working elsewhere) is that their contracts are basically guaranteed, so if they are early terminated, their contract is paid up.
I’m a contractor and my employer can give the required notice for early termination, I have to work the notice and then I’m gone, with no pay off.

[jon1959]

Another headline-grabbing case study:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60427119

Winter Olympics: Who is Kamila Valieva's coach Eteri Tutberidze?

What kind of training method is it when a coach confronts rather than comforts a sobbing 15-year-old at the Olympic Games?

"Chilling", according to the International Olympic Committee. "Key" for athletes to achieve victory, according to the Russian government.

The Eteri Tutberidze kind, according to what millions witnessed this week.

That and all the events surrounding her young skater Kamila Valieva at these Beijing Winter Olympics have thrust the spotlight on a coach who has produced a string of young champions in recent years.

....

Tutberidze's 'tough' methods

In an interview Tutberidze gave to Russia's Channel One in 2018, she said she makes champions through "love" not "strictness".

She also said that she "doesn't demand things" but wants to make athletes "feel unsatisfied with their failure to complete a task" so that "they feel disgust inside them".

[delmbox]

Another headline-grabbing case study:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60427119

Winter Olympics: Who is Kamila Valieva's coach Eteri Tutberidze?

What kind of training method is it when a coach confronts rather than comforts a sobbing 15-year-old at the Olympic Games?

"Chilling", according to the International Olympic Committee. "Key" for athletes to achieve victory, according to the Russian government.

The Eteri Tutberidze kind, according to what millions witnessed this week.

That and all the events surrounding her young skater Kamila Valieva at these Beijing Winter Olympics have thrust the spotlight on a coach who has produced a string of young champions in recent years.

....

Tutberidze's 'tough' methods

In an interview Tutberidze gave to Russia's Channel One in 2018, she said she makes champions through "love" not "strictness".

She also said that she "doesn't demand things" but wants to make athletes "feel unsatisfied with their failure to complete a task" so that "they feel disgust inside them".

you haven't read the thread have you

[blue matt]

Another headline-grabbing case study:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/60427119

Winter Olympics: Who is Kamila Valieva's coach Eteri Tutberidze?

What kind of training method is it when a coach confronts rather than comforts a sobbing 15-year-old at the Olympic Games?

"Chilling", according to the International Olympic Committee. "Key" for athletes to achieve victory, according to the Russian government.

The Eteri Tutberidze kind, according to what millions witnessed this week.

That and all the events surrounding her young skater Kamila Valieva at these Beijing Winter Olympics have thrust the spotlight on a coach who has produced a string of young champions in recent years.

....

Tutberidze's 'tough' methods

In an interview Tutberidze gave to Russia's Channel One in 2018, she said she makes champions through "love" not "strictness".

She also said that she "doesn't demand things" but wants to make athletes "feel unsatisfied with their failure to complete a task" so that "they feel disgust inside them".

While Tutberidz's harsh treatment was condemned by IOC president Thomas Bach, The drugs test failure ( for trimetazidine ) was not deemed enough to stop Kamila competing oppppps sorry I mean contamination from the heart medication her grandfather was taking


Look at the Skaters Sambo 70 has produced, its a true elite skating school ( I wonder how many parent turn a blind eye to the juicing )

[jon1959]

you haven't read the thread have you

[Citizen's Nephew]

Despite improvements in workplace culture, bullying at work appears as rife today as it was 20 years ago.

I caught this program on R4 yesterday evening and found it really interesting. There's no reference to football or elite sports but nevertheless, it raises a lot of issues that should also apply to the workplace of professional sportspeople.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0015vct

[Citizen's Nephew]

Bumping this thread as a lot of the same things keep popping up and it's worth revisiting this. This was only back in March and was prompted by Morison's attitude back then and the whole 'tough love' sh*t, snowflake, 'it's elite sport' spiel at the time.
The BBC programme is worth a listen to.

The thread wasn't some witch hunt either. It was a genuine attempt to try and have some adult discussion about this issue and why some feel football should be exempt, and even some feel it does have a place.

You all know my view. I felt there was always the possibility of a problem down the line with an abrasive attitude (which was very much discussed after the Isaak Davies incident).

[ashi83]

Psychology and social norms aside, most professional footballers are not on typical employment contracts so have a different legal service relationship with clubs as most people have with the employer who pays their salary.

[Moodybluebird]

Whilst I would never condone bullying in the workplace, I think you have to put it into perspective. Calling out a player because he can't head a ball or such like is not even close to the verbals dished out (and worse) by the likes of Cloughie, Scoular, Ferguson etc.

They will face a lot worse when they come up against real opponents, who will verbally aggravate them, needle them throughout the game and given the chance will kick seven bells out of them. In effect the manager is toughening them up for far sterner challenges ahead, so they had better be prepared for it or forget about becoming a professional footballer. That is the harsh reality if you want to make your way in the game.

Having said that, bullying in an office environment or such like should not be tolerated and has to be stamped out at all costs.

[Citizen's Nephew]

Psychology and social norms aside, most professional footballers are not on typical employment contracts so have a different legal service relationship with clubs as most people have with the employer who pays their salary.

Surely those atypical employment contracts wouldn't override basic employment rights of the time though?

Question: would it be legal for an employer to write into a contract that they could publicly humiliate you? If you signed that contract therefore would you be waiving your rights? Would you even be allowed to do so? Would that stand up at a tribunal? You'd have to be of sound mind too i.e. not need the support of a responsible adult.

Compromise agreements i.e. where you effectively agree to shut the f*ck up in exchange for a financial package exist. I've signed one in my time. It was complex and I had to employ the services of a suitable lawyer (in fact it was a legal requirement that I did).

I'm not expecting you to answer all of these questions and if you are a lawyer then what are the chances of some free legal advice anyway? (I'm kidding mate) but if there are others out there that do know I'd be interested in the views.

I still think, no matter what anyone says, that footballers i.e. any employee will have the same rights as anyone else regarding laws associated with bullying.

[North Cardiff Blue]

I stress this thread is not targeting anyone anywhere. It's something I've been giving a lot of thought to and I've been pretty forthright in my views regarding whether it is a thing and should even be a thing.

I'm interested to hear people's thoughts regarding this. Should football be exempt from the workplace rules applied by other employers? Should footballers have more protection than they do now?

I'm rusty on employment law but with recent examples, would a footballer be within their rights to call constructive dismissal at the way they are treated and resign? Thereby having a case against a club?

I realise there are a lot of questions here, but if we want equality, shouldn't it apply to football too?

I'd really appreciate a civil discussion on this and for things not to get personal as I genuinely believe it's an interesting and controversial subject.

For over 50's we could cope with a bit of tough treatment, you didn't really have much choice, you have to be much more careful with youngsters these days though, they can't really cope with it, that's why old-style Managers find it so hard, times have changed.

Slagging players off in public though and through the media is not right, and that would really bother me.