Loan Report

[the other bob wilson]

It's difficult for me to be constructive about the Fagan-Walcott situation, I'm completely missing something there. All I can do is put the facts up and hope the answer reveals itself at some point. We obviously saw Benjamin as the better bet of the two, Dunfermline obviously don't. If we felt he wasn't physically strong enough, Dunfermline obviously do. If we felt there was an injury concern, the number of 90 minutes he's played up there says different.

I don't get why Bulut didn't even bother to have a look at him in the cup games when he was on the bench. Blackburn and Sheffield Wednesday had gone with 20 minutes to go but he didn't bring him on even though he only used four subs both times. It's not as though we've had a big pool of centre halves this season, if he was a central midfielder it'd make more sense.

What I don't really want to do is start speculating but the situation is so baffling that it's hard not to. You could well be right that the club have been impressed by Benjamin's attitude and, equally, I don't think it's impossible to conclude that Bulut isn't impressed by Fagan-Walcott's apparent insouciance. Much in the same way that I imagine Warnock wasn't impressed by Ajayi's.

However, the way Ajayi committed to far from glamorous loan spells when he was here made me think there was more heart and determination in him than his demeanour let on and Fagan-Walcott's spell at Dunfermline makes me think the same. Don't judge a book by its cover and all that.

Isaak Davies is going to be an interesting one. Tsunoda too. Bulut (or whoever) will have a blank canvas to start with when it comes to setting up for next season but if we, say, get Kieffer Moore and a couple of wingers in June then it's going to commit us to a style of play that might not suit Davies and Tsunoda (if they're good enough of course). Obviously we can't wait for pre-season to finish before recruiting so this might need a bit of forward thinking, not something we're renowned for.

I've no idea if Bulut attends u-21 games. He's got a different approach to previous managers in that senior players have very rarely been given games, even when coming back from injury, until Sawyers and Robinson popped up recently. That may suggest he sees them as a waste of time but he seems to integrate the youngsters into first team training more than others have so it's not like he's uninterested in that section of the club.

I've probably been guilty of reading too much into u-21 and Academy games over the years. My eldest tends to laugh when I show him goals from that level and I know where he's coming from. I like Ashford but the goals against Bristol and Swansea would have been dealt with comfortably at Championship level and even Colwill's for Wales u-21s the other night seemed a bit farcical to me (Wales second was a beauty though).

Equally, I think I've underestimated the importance of training. So much going on there that we don't see or know about. Fitness, stamina, ability, attitude, character etc all being put to the test day in, day out. Maybe Bulut sets up practice games that have an intensity about them that tells him more than u-21 games do, in his opinion. Hockey and football are much different, of course, but my youngest absolutely swears by the importance of training. He concludes a lot from it, about coaches and players, and is rarely wrong about either.

That's not dismissing the youth games, I'd still catch a few if work permitted. I'm just saying I probably read too much into them in the past.

Sorry that was so long, I'd better stop now or I'll use up the internet.

It does rather beg the question what can someone like Ashford do if he's deemed as part of the first team squad so can’t be loaned out and he’s never going to be used when named as a sub? He could score some fine goals I suppose, but then it may well be that Bulut thinks like you do and the goals are devalued because the defending was not Championship level? Ashford missed a chance I expected to score at Sheffield Wednesday so that may be being held against him, but he must have been the eighth Cirty player to miss a chance that night and I’d rather think of the good things in those goals against Swansea and Bristol City under 21s and in particular the one he got for Wales under 21s against the Czech Republic in added time to get a draw - the whole game was riding on that difficult finish and the fact that Ashford, first,went for the volley and then delivered it perfectly says a lot I think.

Agree about Colwill’s goal - now that was a goal that would never be scored in the Championship!

[the other bob wilson]

It's difficult for me to be constructive about the Fagan-Walcott situation, I'm completely missing something there. All I can do is put the facts up and hope the answer reveals itself at some point. We obviously saw Benjamin as the better bet of the two, Dunfermline obviously don't. If we felt he wasn't physically strong enough, Dunfermline obviously do. If we felt there was an injury concern, the number of 90 minutes he's played up there says different.

I don't get why Bulut didn't even bother to have a look at him in the cup games when he was on the bench. Blackburn and Sheffield Wednesday had gone with 20 minutes to go but he didn't bring him on even though he only used four subs both times. It's not as though we've had a big pool of centre halves this season, if he was a central midfielder it'd make more sense.

What I don't really want to do is start speculating but the situation is so baffling that it's hard not to. You could well be right that the club have been impressed by Benjamin's attitude and, equally, I don't think it's impossible to conclude that Bulut isn't impressed by Fagan-Walcott's apparent insouciance. Much in the same way that I imagine Warnock wasn't impressed by Ajayi's.

However, the way Ajayi committed to far from glamorous loan spells when he was here made me think there was more heart and determination in him than his demeanour let on and Fagan-Walcott's spell at Dunfermline makes me think the same. Don't judge a book by its cover and all that.

Isaak Davies is going to be an interesting one. Tsunoda too. Bulut (or whoever) will have a blank canvas to start with when it comes to setting up for next season but if we, say, get Kieffer Moore and a couple of wingers in June then it's going to commit us to a style of play that might not suit Davies and Tsunoda (if they're good enough of course). Obviously we can't wait for pre-season to finish before recruiting so this might need a bit of forward thinking, not something we're renowned for.

I've no idea if Bulut attends u-21 games. He's got a different approach to previous managers in that senior players have very rarely been given games, even when coming back from injury, until Sawyers and Robinson popped up recently. That may suggest he sees them as a waste of time but he seems to integrate the youngsters into first team training more than others have so it's not like he's uninterested in that section of the club.

I've probably been guilty of reading too much into u-21 and Academy games over the years. My eldest tends to laugh when I show him goals from that level and I know where he's coming from. I like Ashford but the goals against Bristol and Swansea would have been dealt with comfortably at Championship level and even Colwill's for Wales u-21s the other night seemed a bit farcical to me (Wales second was a beauty though).

Equally, I think I've underestimated the importance of training. So much going on there that we don't see or know about. Fitness, stamina, ability, attitude, character etc all being put to the test day in, day out. Maybe Bulut sets up practice games that have an intensity about them that tells him more than u-21 games do, in his opinion. Hockey and football are much different, of course, but my youngest absolutely swears by the importance of training. He concludes a lot from it, about coaches and players, and is rarely wrong about either.

That's not dismissing the youth games, I'd still catch a few if work permitted. I'm just saying I probably read too much into them in the past.

Sorry that was so long, I'd better stop now or I'll use up the internet.

It does rather beg the question what can someone like Ashford do if he's deemed to be part of the first team squad so can’t be loaned out and he’s never going to be used when named as a sub? He could score some fine goals for the under 21s I suppose, but then it may well be that Bulut thinks like you do and the goals are devalued because the defending was not Championship level? Ashford missed a chance I expected to score at Sheffield Wednesday so that may be being held against him, but he must have been the eighth Cirty player to miss a chance that night and I’d rather think of the good things in those goals against Swansea and Bristol City under 21s and in particular the one he got for Wales under 21s against the Czech Republic in added time to get a draw - the whole game was riding on that difficult finish and the fact that Ashford, first,went for the volley and then delivered it perfectly says a lot I think.

Agree about Colwill’s goal - now that was a goal that would never be scored in the Championship!

[Lord Worcester]

One of the most enjoyable threads I have read in a long time. Thanks loramski in particular. Please keep it going. I for one really do hope Isaac is integrated into first team next season. Maybe heart over head I am prepared to admit - but really has grant got that much more than him, and many city fans seem to rave about grant. Personally just dont see it.

[Undercoverinwurzelland]

Tsunoda has a hamstring tear. Might well be the end of his season.
https://twitter.com/kvkofficieel/sta...62406691013011

[Loramski]

It does rather beg the question what can someone like Ashford do if he's deemed to be part of the first team squad so can’t be loaned out and he’s never going to be used when named as a sub? He could score some fine goals for the under 21s I suppose, but then it may well be that Bulut thinks like you do and the goals are devalued because the defending was not Championship level? Ashford missed a chance I expected to score at Sheffield Wednesday so that may be being held against him, but he must have been the eighth Cirty player to miss a chance that night and I’d rather think of the good things in those goals against Swansea and Bristol City under 21s and in particular the one he got for Wales under 21s against the Czech Republic in added time to get a draw - the whole game was riding on that difficult finish and the fact that Ashford, first,went for the volley and then delivered it perfectly says a lot I think.

Agree about Colwill’s goal - now that was a goal that would never be scored in the Championship!

I picked up on Ashford and Joel Colwill not going on loan, against Bulut's apparent wishes, at the time but I haven't heard any more about that. It looks like the scenario you suggest, I agree, but at the same time I've no idea what (if any) loan offers were made and who turned them down. The club, Bulut, the players themselves? It does seem odd but I wouldn't like to draw a conclusion without more info.

I made a point about training in my post but you've still reduced it all down to goals scored again. I'm not saying it's irrelevant but just that it's a smaller part of the overall picture than I used to think. If Ashford is struggling to impress against the senior players in training, or struggling to take ideas in, or struggling with strength and fitness etc then that has to be taken into account along with the fact that he ran 60 yards to score in an under-21 game.

Players like Velikonja, Healey and even Danny Johnson scored for fun at that level, it didn't mean the red carpet was laid out for them at first team level. Sawyers also scored for the u-21s recently, that didn't mean Bulut started him next game either. I'd love to see Ashford and Colwill get some game time but, with Bulut's contract up in a month or so, I can understand why the long term future isn't as much of a concern for him as it is for us.

[Loramski]

One of the most enjoyable threads I have read in a long time. Thanks loramski in particular. Please keep it going. I for one really do hope Isaac is integrated into first team next season. Maybe heart over head I am prepared to admit - but really has grant got that much more than him, and many city fans seem to rave about grant. Personally just dont see it.

Thank you, appreciate that. You're not the only one who lets their heart rule their head when it comes to the youngsters here, we all get a bit carried away at times.

With Isaak, the issue seems to be whether we should be sticking him on the wing at all now he's playing so well as a striker. As I said last week, the 3-5-2 that Kortrijk play would seem to suit him best, Tsunoda too. I've seen Peter Crouch say there can be lot of luck involved as a footballer, just finding yourself in the right place at the right time with the right manager, set-up and players around you. Seems to have fallen like that for Isaak with Kortrijk, fingers crossed it'll be the same for him next season with us but time will tell.

[Loramski]

Tsunoda has a hamstring tear. Might well be the end of his season.
https://twitter.com/kvkofficieel/sta...62406691013011

Shame. Gutted for him if he misses the play-offs.

[the other bob wilson]

I picked up on Ashford and Joel Colwill not going on loan, against Bulut's apparent wishes, at the time but I haven't heard any more about that. It looks like the scenario you suggest, I agree, but at the same time I've no idea what (if any) loan offers were made and who turned them down. The club, Bulut, the players themselves? It does seem odd but I wouldn't like to draw a conclusion without more info.

I made a point about training in my post but you've still reduced it all down to goals scored again. I'm not saying it's irrelevant but just that it's a smaller part of the overall picture than I used to think. If Ashford is struggling to impress against the senior players in training, or struggling to take ideas in, or struggling with strength and fitness etc then that has to be taken into account along with the fact that he ran 60 yards to score in an under-21 game.

Players like Velikonja, Healey and even Danny Johnson scored for fun at that level, it didn't mean the red carpet was laid out for them at first team level. Sawyers also scored for the u-21s recently, that didn't mean Bulut started him next game either. I'd love to see Ashford and Colwill get some game time but, with Bulut's contract up in a month or so, I can understand why the long term future isn't as much of a concern for him as it is for us.

Why would Ashford have been selected for about ten straight games as a sub if he was struggling in all of the things you mention and why would he have got game time in the cup matches? If he was finding it hard going with the seniors wouldn’t it make more sense to say go back to the under 21s for a few months and we can reassess things then?

[Tuerto]

I picked up on Ashford and Joel Colwill not going on loan, against Bulut's apparent wishes, at the time but I haven't heard any more about that. It looks like the scenario you suggest, I agree, but at the same time I've no idea what (if any) loan offers were made and who turned them down. The club, Bulut, the players themselves? It does seem odd but I wouldn't like to draw a conclusion without more info.

I made a point about training in my post but you've still reduced it all down to goals scored again. I'm not saying it's irrelevant but just that it's a smaller part of the overall picture than I used to think. If Ashford is struggling to impress against the senior players in training, or struggling to take ideas in, or struggling with strength and fitness etc then that has to be taken into account along with the fact that he ran 60 yards to score in an under-21 game.

Players like Velikonja, Healey and even Danny Johnson scored for fun at that level, it didn't mean the red carpet was laid out for them at first team level. Sawyers also scored for the u-21s recently, that didn't mean Bulut started him next game either. I'd love to see Ashford and Colwill get some game time but, with Bulut's contract up in a month or so, I can understand why the long term future isn't as much of a concern for him as it is for us.

You post some seriously good stuff, really enjoy your take on things and i find myself agreeing with you on plenty of things. I like it that you're not sentimental or biased about young players coming through and you offer all options in an argument, not just the ones that suit your stand point. You talk like someone who has been around top level sport, or at least a very good standard.

You're right, what goes on during the week is imperative towards a young players development and inclusion. Thing is, as fans, we aren't seeing the character of these players, we don't see what they're like in certain situations on a training pitch, we don't see how they respond. We just look at a player in their position who isn't performing and ask why (Insert Name) isn't playing in front of them. Managers and coaches have to trust players as well, there are loads of factors that us as fans don't take into account or see (For obvious reasons) on a daily basis.

Young players are also in aposition where they have to prove themselves. All players have to go through it. People might think it's wrong, but they can't just be on the same level as the person in their position, they have to be better, like nearly all young players that break through, they were showing more.

[Jimmy the Jock]

I picked up on Ashford and Joel Colwill not going on loan, against Bulut's apparent wishes, at the time but I haven't heard any more about that. It looks like the scenario you suggest, I agree, but at the same time I've no idea what (if any) loan offers were made and who turned them down. The club, Bulut, the players themselves? It does seem odd but I wouldn't like to draw a conclusion without more info.

I made a point about training in my post but you've still reduced it all down to goals scored again. I'm not saying it's irrelevant but just that it's a smaller part of the overall picture than I used to think. If Ashford is struggling to impress against the senior players in training, or struggling to take ideas in, or struggling with strength and fitness etc then that has to be taken into account along with the fact that he ran 60 yards to score in an under-21 game.

Players like Velikonja, Healey and even Danny Johnson scored for fun at that level, it didn't mean the red carpet was laid out for them at first team level. Sawyers also scored for the u-21s recently, that didn't mean Bulut started him next game either. I'd love to see Ashford and Colwill get some game time but, with Bulut's contract up in a month or so, I can understand why the long term future isn't as much of a concern for him as it is for us.

Hes gone...get over it.

[Loramski]

You post some seriously good stuff, really enjoy your take on things and i find myself agreeing with you on plenty of things. I like it that you're not sentimental or biased about young players coming through and you offer all options in an argument, not just the ones that suit your stand point. You talk like someone who has been around top level sport, or at least a very good standard.

You're right, what goes on during the week is imperative towards a young players development and inclusion. Thing is, as fans, we aren't seeing the character of these players, we don't see what they're like in certain situations on a training pitch, we don't see how they respond. We just look at a player in their position who isn't performing and ask why (Insert Name) isn't playing in front of them. Managers and coaches have to trust players as well, there are loads of factors that us as fans don't take into account or see (For obvious reasons) on a daily basis.

Young players are also in aposition where they have to prove themselves. All players have to go through it. People might think it's wrong, but they can't just be on the same level as the person in their position, they have to be better, like nearly all young players that break through, they were showing more.

You've rumbled my top level sporting prowess there, fair play. Me and my team won three division one titles in a row down gol. What gave it away?

My lad plays hockey for Wales. Amateur sport here but it's given me a few insights into how top level sport works. He broke into the Wales set-up while his club coach had him playing for the second team and that gave me the belief that any coach who wasn't bringing young players through was a cockwomble, basically.

However, while I hated the attitude to the youth sections here that Slade and Warnock had, it dawned on me that one of the reasons they hadn't been playing youngsters was that we hadn't had any who were good enough. I had to modify my position a bit then; coaches and managers should bring youngsters through - but only if they're good enough.

The problem then is how do we know which ones are good enough? Bulut seems to take an interest in the youngsters here but if he doesn't see Ashford as one of his best fifteen or sixteen players is that his misjudgement or does Ashford need to do more in games and in training to justify a place? We can argue that kind of thing till we're blue in the face, and often do, but none of us on here know for sure.

[Loramski]

Hes gone...get over it.

Gone? Yes. Forgotten? No.

[City123]

Gone? Yes. Forgotten? No.

Still only 35, still time for one last dance

Go on Erol bring him home!

[jon1959]

Still only 35, still time for one last dance

Go on Erol bring him home!

'Still only 35'.

Another great opportunity to discuss those two same-age titans of European strikerdom: Etien Velikonja and Robert Lewandowski.

For me, Velikonja just shades it!

[City123]

'Still only 35'.

Another great opportunity to discuss those two same-age titans of European strikerdom: Etien Velikonja and Robert Lewandowski.

For me, Velikonja just shades it!

I hear Haaland had posers of our Etien on his wall growing up

[Loramski]

Still only 35, still time for one last dance

Go on Erol bring him home!

Funny you should say this. After the Sheffield Wednesday cup game I wrote to the club suggesting we bring Velikonja back as a full-time penalty taking coach. They must've lost my contact details because I still haven't heard back but I'll chase it up.

[Dorcus]

I hear Haaland had posers of our Etien on his wall growing up

None of those posers were anywhere near as good as the real thing.

[Citizen's Nephew]

'Still only 35'.

Another great opportunity to discuss those two same-age titans of European strikerdom: Etien Velikonja and Robert Lewandowski.

For me, Velikonja just shades it!

As someone who is an obsessive football video game collector (not just FIFA) the last time he was ever mentioned was FIFA 18 and this is his ratings breakdown and stats when he was 28 yrs old. I think he was retired in FIFA 19. But it's worth noting that when he was with us, he was really sh*t in FIFA 14. In fact, I think I still have a collection of spectacular misses by him in my (sad) gaming archives!

https://sofifa.com/player/193930/eti...80084?hl=en-US

[Citizen's Nephew]

Funny you should say this. After the Sheffield Wednesday cup game I wrote to the club suggesting we bring Velikonja back as a full-time penalty taking coach. They must've lost my contact details because I still haven't heard back but I'll chase it up.

[Rjk]

Tsunoda has a hamstring tear. Might well be the end of his season.
https://twitter.com/kvkofficieel/sta...62406691013011

oh dear, I wonder if that affects his chances of getting a work permit for here?

[Undercoverinwurzelland]

oh dear, I wonder if that affects his chances of getting a work permit for here?

That's a point. Hadn't thought of that.

[Jimmy the Jock]

oh dear, I wonder if that affects his chances of getting a work permit for here?

Who cares?

Velinkonja is back on our radar . Loramski is back on top form.
I am smiling reading the board instead of thinking FFS LIGHTEN UP .

[Nobody's Rep]

Thank you, appreciate that. You're not the only one who lets their heart rule their head when it comes to the youngsters here, we all get a bit carried away at times.

With Isaak, the issue seems to be whether we should be sticking him on the wing at all now he's playing so well as a striker. As I said last week, the 3-5-2 that Kortrijk play would seem to suit him best, Tsunoda too. I've seen Peter Crouch say there can be lot of luck involved as a footballer, just finding yourself in the right place at the right time with the right manager, set-up and players around you. Seems to have fallen like that for Isaak with Kortrijk, fingers crossed it'll be the same for him next season with us but time will tell.

I've watched a few of the lower EFL league games this week and the highlights show as well and it makes me wonder what quality we do have in the youth coming through as the standard looks pretty poor generally and yet none of ours on loan there? Are we not a fan as a club or did no offers come? I don't know the answer to that

Not convinced in our use of the Scottish leagues as how many have gone there and come back better players ?? I can't think of any??

Are we using the loan system just as a means of off loading wages rather than a clear strategy for player development?

[Rjk]

That's a point. Hadn't thought of that.

looking at the GBE calculator, that seems to say that he would currently qualify for a visa, with 19 or 20 points (you need 15 minimum) but I'm not sure they've got his details correct

[Loramski]

I've watched a few of the lower EFL league games this week and the highlights show as well and it makes me wonder what quality we do have in the youth coming through as the standard looks pretty poor generally and yet none of ours on loan there? Are we not a fan as a club or did no offers come? I don't know the answer to that

Not convinced in our use of the Scottish leagues as how many have gone there and come back better players ?? I can't think of any??

Are we using the loan system just as a means of off loading wages rather than a clear strategy for player development?

Good questions here. I can answer the second one - Earnie. Burrows sent him up to Greenock Morton to 'toughen him up' and we know the rest. Even then we can't be sure though. Burrows never fancied Earnie so maybe he was just offloading him, Billy Ayre brought him straight back when Burrows was sacked. Was that loan the turning point for Earnie or was it Burrows going? Earnie says it benefitted him so we'll have to count it as a successful loan but I doubt it made a huge difference, he only played four games there.

And that's the issue here really. I don't know any more than you about the thinking behind the loans so we're just putting our interpretation on things. A number of contracts are being run down presently while King, Bagan and Davies are being 'developed' but there are plenty of grey areas to keep us guessing.

The question of why we don't have our young players going to EFL clubs on loan is one that throws me too. I'd have thought it was easier to establish what level a player is at if they go to League 1 or 2 but only King has done that this season of the youngsters (Isaak Davies was wanted by League 1 clubs but went to Belgium). We can't have a problem loaning to EFL clubs because Adams and Rinomhota are there, younger players like Healey, Mark Harris, Sang, Watters and Ciaron Brown before them. James Connolly too.

So you have to conclude that our youngsters aren't seen to be at that level yet but that would mean the current crop are not only worse than the players mentioned above but also worse than those who were getting EFL loan deals in recent years such as Ben Nugent, Oshilaja, Tutonda, O'Sullivan, Barnum-Bobb, Ibrahim Meite, Danny Johnson etc. Even Paul McKay. That would be a sobering thought.

That's far too simplistic though, I think. It would be interesting to know what loan offers (if any) came in for Ashford and Joel Colwill in January and what offers were made for Rubin Colwill over the years and why these were turned down but, without all the relevant information, I'm playing as much of a guessing game as you are.