Reply With QuoteEven down to Nat League southOriginally Posted by Father Dougal
I have just got my tickets for Bath FC V Torquay
Torquay entered administration this week
When people moan on here, it makes me smile, as things are not that bad
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Southend, Oldham, Halifax, Barnet, Chesterfield, York,, hartlepool.
Used to play those week in week out in the 90s.
Yet some like Brentford fulham, luton and Brighton in the Premier league.
Not really making any point so i dont expect any replies just an observation.
Even down to Nat League south
I have just got my tickets for Bath FC V Torquay
Torquay entered administration this week
When people moan on here, it makes me smile, as things are not that bad
I would say though we have found our natural level. Mid table championship is where we should be the size of our club in the natural order of things.
We aren't a torquay or Barnet or Halifax and the 90s were below our par but there probably are about 30 clubs in England bigger than us.
Totally agree as we probably have around 15-16 thousand "regulars" who either buy season tickets or go as often as they can, numbers despite fairly consistent "success" relative to us over the last 20 years or so? - a couple of far bigger clubs below us as well such as Sheffield Wednesday, Derby, etc
you are right, teams ultimately find the lever they should be, look at Yeovil, a season in the championship and then the slide back down, thy are a good nat league team, when they slide down to Nat South last year, you knew they would bounce back up this season ( though having a wobble at the mo )
mid Champ league place for us, it could be worse, the occasional go at the play-offs, thats fine aswell
Yep you get those like Brentford and Luton who have been very well run who get to the very top which is brilliant. But they won't stick around there.
Same as Derby Sunderland Leeds Sheffield Wednesday. All went down to league 1 but all back stronger.
I think a lot of our anxieties around relegation are would we actually come back? It's interesting that sides like Ipswich Luton swansea Sunderland Brentford Bournemouth over the years have formed a new style in leagues 1 and 2 and taken that forward to the Premier league. You can't really find a new style in the Championship.
I feel we are like Stoke and Birmingham now in that we are kind of stuck in the Championship. Too afraid to try anything different so bumbling along is safest option.
Relegation could reignite the club, could bring some youngsters in doing well and some fun promotion campaigns (let's be honest if things continue relegation is still coming) but the fear is we have another 20 years being unable to get out and could even slide again.
Derby and Sunderland fans may have felt the same but it always felt inevitable they'd he back stronger. Not sure can say the same for us.
For me it doesn't seem to be fear to do something different - we have had a range of different managers over the time - old, young, untried, experienced, home grown, overseas, internal, external
For me it is the lack of experience at board level and now what appears to be a split - dalman seemed to indicate bulut was his man and he was back excited at being involved in the club - surely it should be presented as a club appointment
For me until we have new ownership (and I'm not anti tan by any stretch just feel he has outlived his time here) we will continue to bumble along but not because of fear but ineptitude above - so changing another manager is treating the symptoms and not the root cause and the treatment will inevitably be the wrong medication with some unpalatable side affects
I regularly look at the lower leagues (National League and below), watching the progress of clubs who were once in the League proper. There are dozens of them. I guess this is a good thing, as 1. it shows the pyramid system is working, and 2. increasing the number of teams that can get promoted/relegated means clubs can make that leap, if they have the talent and backing.
Something ive regularly done is look at the tables and spot trams that have fallen through the divisions, ones that used to be in the PL bu aren't anymore etc. If anyone g its a time killer and also interesting
Getting relegated from the championship would be an absolute disaster for us
Derby , Wednesday , Leeds and Sunderland are all big clubs with big support
You only have to look at the ground yesterday ......less than half full .....we are 11th
Our loyal fans are amazing
The problem is we simply don't have enough compared to the clubs that go down and have the numbers through the turnstiles to back the team
I agree with youSomething ive regularly done is look at the tables and spot trams that have fallen through the divisions, ones that used to be in the PL bu aren't anymore etc. If anyone g its a time killer and also interesting
Barnsley , Bradford , Pompey , Charlton
I think it would be disastrous if we went down
We’ve been involved in the two major cup finals and a couple of premier league visits in relatively recent years so it hasn’t all been a mundane slog. Stoke & Birmingham were mentioned earlier in the thread but I’ve got Preston & Bristol City as clubs who are just ‘stuck’ in the second tier rut.
Yep add Bristol and Preston for sure.
It's just interesting the clear top 4 are the 3 relegated sides and 1 straight from league 1. None who were in championship last season have been anywhere near top 4.
I suspect most will fancy pompey to do the same next season.
I suppose I just mean thinking of someone like OGS. I wouldn't want him here now as think it would remain a mess.
However I'd like to see him have a go with a league 1 club.
Everything is easier in league 1. Remember what shef wed fans said about mcguiness? Lol. Derby fans are saying ebou Adams is the complete box to box midfield player who can also score. Mark harris was impressing oxford fans and winning awards. Everything is just easier. Obvious to say but we forget that. Rhe standard isn't very good but easy to form a new style. While we have perhaps tried in the Championship results have been so bad its only lasted 5 mins and we've changed again.
It's an interesting stat that, whenever we have dropped into the third tier, we've had better crowds when we've been going for promotion from the third tier than we did in being relegated.
I'd be interested to know why our crowds in the early 1970s halved from 1971 to 1973. It must have been more than just selling Toshack, more like going from a side that finished 3rd and just missed out on promotion, to a side avoiding relegation for a couple of seasons. The 70s and 80s were also a period of decline in attendances. Wolves went from an average of nearly 26k in 1980 to 4k in the third division 6 seasons later, yet had 14k in the same division 3 years later when they won it. I don't think it helped us that we were relegated at a time when the game across the UK was in such decline and our hooligan issues won't have encouraged others.
Our crowds have been more consistent over the last decade or so than probably at any other time in our history. We know we can virtually sell out our ground in the Premier League. Give us a season of decent football and challenging properly for the playoffs and we'll get well over 20k. There's not a shred of evidence to suggest our crowds would be decimated if we were relegated and had a good season the following year. In fact, most clubs get bigger crowds in the third tier if they're doing well than they did when they were relegated.
Were you at the game yesterday ?
Because the actual crowd was no more than 15 k
That tells everyone the sort of support we have and would get if we went down to league one
We are not a Derby, Pompey, Wednesday , Sunderland, Leeds etc
The crowds are low because the football is boring and we usually lose at home. If we were playing more attractive football and winning more often the crowds would go up whichever division we were in
Crowds include season ticket sales as we know. They haven't been great for months and I reckon the shocking football has contributed to that. After the Preston game I vowed not to return this season as I've been generally bored shitless when I've seen us at home. Could spend my money far better than wasting £100 on watching crap, by the time I spend out on trains, food, beer and tickets. As I've said before, meeting up with friends has almost become more important over the last few years while we've been rubbish.
You still won't have it that, if we were challenging for promotion from League 1, we'd get better crowds. It's happened to us in our history. It's happened to lots of other clubs as well. You continue believing what you want, I'll stick with what happens statistically and I'll be right.
Absolutely, but Sludge won't have any of that.
Scunthorpe, Chester, Hereford and Darlington are all in National League North
I remember going to Scunthorpes old ground
Old Show ground, before they moved to the “first new build ground “ Glanford park
Nice post, but not sure what it has to do with my reply.
I agree but not by as much as they should
We are not a well supported club
I think you are consistently deluded when it comes to our support
Every club known to man gets better support with success
But our starting point is much lower than clubs like Derby, Sunderland etc
We are simply not a big club even by championship standards and our hardcore loyal support is not big enough to sustain the club and its always been the problem
We have always been a selling club for that reason and when we do push the boat out .....eg dave Jones era ......our crowds were not big enough to sustain it
It's always been the same
South Wales will support a successful team but anything else and our support drops away alarmingly
I mean you can big the club up as much and as often as you like but many of us on here watching cardiff city play in front of crowds of less than 2500 not that long ago
For a city the size of Cardiff with its catchment areas that is absolutely shocking 🤯
If you’re not old enough to have lived through the sale of Toshack, it’s easy to underestimate the impact it had. Looking back at in now, I’d say it was the moment when a lot of the older supporters worst fears about the club were realised - they thought all along that Toshack would be sold and they were proved right. Contrasting that, I was only fifteen at the time and still had the naivety of youth - I still do in a way because I believe the sale was inevitable but it should have been delayed until the end of 70/71 season.
At the time, we were a bigger club than Luton Town in terms of gates and potential (I’d say we still are today), but Luton made a conscious decision to hold on to their young goalscorer Malcolm McDonald until the end of 70/71. Now, I could make an argument on either side as to who was the better player out of the two, but if you asked Toshack and McDonald to show you their medals from their club careers, there’s no doubting that the ex City man has the more impressive collection.
However, by selling Toshack in November 1970, City got £110,000 and by selling McDonald in the summer of 1971, Luton got £180,000 for McDonald and that isn’t an accurate reflection of the relative abilities of the two players at that time.
So, City were not just perceived as being willing to sell, they were seen as eager to sell as those misgivings of the older fan base were realised. People generally stuck with the club for the rest of that season and the early games of 71/72, but it soon became obvious that the team was a shadow of its former self and that the sale of Toshack had not benefited the club on the pitch. With the team in sharp decline and Toshack’s replacement Alan Warboys mirroring this, it’s understandable that gatesdropped so drastically.
It was during this period that I began thinking that City would average about 25,000 if they ever became an established First Division club and I stuck with that opinion until I was proved wrong in 18/19 in the Premier League. We’d get crowds like that again if we were ever promoted again and they might be bigger again if the stadium was expanded., but you give any set of supporters the sort of dull and unsuccessful garbage that City home fans have had to watch since the grounds reopened in 21/22 and it’s obvious less are going to attend.
I agree with you, if we were to get relegated and this led to better results and more enjoyable football, you’d see crowds getting over the 20,000 mark and maybe higher.
No chance
We would get far lower away support than we have in the Championship
Leeds , Swansea , Bristol City , Birmingham , Sunderland , West Brom , Coventry , Leicester , Ipswich have boosted our gates by at least 1500 on the occasions they have visited both our home attendance and away team numbers would drop
Cardiff City fans are incredibly fickle .....always have been
We like the big games .....no problem getting big crowds once in a while .....but a relegation to league one would see a big decline in gates , and the quality of football will be just one of the excuses not to attend
When we were in the basement last time we would get an occasional big crowd .....Burnley, Shrewsbury .....but the rest of the season would be poor
In fact sides like Plymouth had far better support than us at the same level , even Bristol Rovers
Bristol Rovers, not just better, but FAR better, you say?
Not in my lifetime supporting the City since the early seventies.
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