Renationalising The Trains

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Labour are suggesting they might do it?

If its cost effective let's have it !

And make energy , broadband , phones all in one

[pipster]

Labour are suggesting they might do it?

If its cost effective let's have it !

And make energy , broadband , phones all in one

That's all fine and dandy Sludgey but... picture the scene - Sir Keir and Angie have just completed the total re nationalisation - we are back to British Rail. Responsible for all trains, track, repairs, drivers, conductors etc - fantastic. Until British Rail union members decide to go on strike for more (insert ludicrous demand here).

All of a sudden with great ease - they could bring down the entire rail network. Every person now employed by the Govt. East coast service is cr@p - we'll get companies to re tender and dont renew the current supplier - under British Rail - you are stuck with them.

Inefficiency, no motivation to innovate, probable political interference, zero accountability, zero competition, if you want that good luck to you. Much better off using the Japan Rail model - rather than the usual socialist guff policy that never worked and will fail again. But hey ho - I'm sure you have thought this through - and it will all be fine - just like it was in the 70's

[jon1959]

That's all fine and dandy Sludgey but... picture the scene - Sir Keir and Angie have just completed the total re nationalisation - we are back to British Rail. Responsible for all trains, track, repairs, drivers, conductors etc - fantastic. Until British Rail union members decide to go on strike for more (insert ludicrous demand here).

All of a sudden with great ease - they could bring down the entire rail network. Every person now employed by the Govt. East coast service is cr@p - we'll get companies to re tender and dont renew the current supplier - under British Rail - you are stuck with them.

Inefficiency, no motivation to innovate, probable political interference, zero accountability, zero competition, if you want that good luck to you. Much better off using the Japan Rail model - rather than the usual socialist guff policy that never worked and will fail again. But hey ho - I'm sure you have thought this through - and it will all be fine - just like it was in the 70's

Labour (Louise Haigh) nationalisation plans specifically exclude rolling stock and (I think) the track. It is just about bringing the operations of the train operating companies back into public control as and when the contracts expire.

Not sure of the rationale for this half and half plan - though assume it is so they can say it will not cost a penny (and will make big savings for the Treasury). The figure they are using is £2.2 billion per year after 5 years. With that they should be able to buy back the trains and track too - and have an integrated transport system.

It will make a change from the government temporarily nationalising routes when train franchises fail and then giving them away again when they have recovered. Or in other words a change from nationalising debt and privatising profit. Or in other words a change from tax payers subsidising shareholders. Or in other words parasite capitalism.

[Eric Cartman]

Inefficiency, no motivation to innovate, probable political interference, zero accountability, zero competition, if you want that good luck to you.

All of those points apply to the current model.

At this point it is probably worth asking, do you think any functions of central/local government should remain 'nationalised' or would they all operate better if privatised?

[pipster]

All of those points apply to the current model.

At this point it is probably worth asking, do you think any functions of central/local government should remain 'nationalised' or would they all operate better if privatised?

Great point - If they are one and the same then - I would prefer the option that gives the end client the option to get rid of the bad supplier. That way you are not stuck with a rubbish supplier. The nationalised British rail model does not allow for that option - which is why it is flawed.

for the avoidance of doubt - I cant stand some of the train operators currently running some services. But at least they can be got rid of. British Rail militant and unionised would be a disaster - even worse than what we have now.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

That's all fine and dandy Sludgey but... picture the scene - Sir Keir and Angie have just completed the total re nationalisation - we are back to British Rail. Responsible for all trains, track, repairs, drivers, conductors etc - fantastic. Until British Rail union members decide to go on strike for more (insert ludicrous demand here).

All of a sudden with great ease - they could bring down the entire rail network. Every person now employed by the Govt. East coast service is cr@p - we'll get companies to re tender and dont renew the current supplier - under British Rail - you are stuck with them.

Inefficiency, no motivation to innovate, probable political interference, zero accountability, zero competition, if you want that good luck to you. Much better off using the Japan Rail model - rather than the usual socialist guff policy that never worked and will fail again. But hey ho - I'm sure you have thought this through - and it will all be fine - just like it was in the 70's

We are basically stuck with the private train operators functioning as a sort of its this or you can get the bus ......with the train companies coining it in

Plus loads of people making money out of shares and dividends

The train service nationwide can be shut down as it is

I would nationalise everything if it was financially viable

[Eric Cartman]

We are basically stuck with the private train operators functioning as a sort of its this or you can get the bus ......with the train companies coining it in

Plus loads of people making money out of shares and dividends

The train service nationwide can be shut down as it is

I would nationalise everything if it was financially viable

Tbh your second paragraph is a bit off the mark. A significant amount of the operators are directly owned by foreign governments. The irony isn't lost that Pipster thinks it's somehow more efficient for the French or German government to run rail services in the UK, as opposed to the UK government and that somehow that makes railways adds accountability.

[Eric Cartman]

Thankfully arriva will soon be out of the mitts of DB and in the hands of a US private equity firm. If there is anything you can count on in life, it's that private equity firms owning vital infrastructure always goes well.

[jon1959]

Reading some articles on Labour's plans this morning I was surprised that the government still owns and operates 4 former franchises that it took over in recent years as they failed (Northern, Trans Pennine, LNER and Southern) and is still running Network Rail as an autonomous organisation inside the Department of Transport, 10 years after it was taken out of private hands (I thought it had been semi privatised again - but seems not). So more than 25% of the former British Rail has already been piecemeal renationalised.

There is over 65% public support for a nationalised and integrated railway.

[JamesWales]

Yeah my understanding is that the Railways are already effectively nationalised. What isnt is the companies running the services.

I'm broadly supportive of nationalisation, as I am with water (as opposed to say telecommunications or bus travel where privatisation works) but I dont think it's a panacea at all and I dont think TfW is better for being government run really. I also think it's important than any new British Rail does not have a monopoly. If someone with private rai stock thinks they can run a Cardiff to Bristol service better then they should be allowed to compete.

[Eric Cartman]

Yeah my understanding is that the Railways are already effectively nationalised. What isnt is the companies running the services.

I'm broadly supportive of nationalisation, as I am with water (as opposed to say telecommunications or bus travel where privatisation works) but I dont think it's a panacea at all and I dont think TfW is better for being government run really. I also think it's important than any new British Rail does not have a monopoly. If someone with private rai stock thinks they can run a Cardiff to Bristol service better then they should be allowed to compete.

I tend to think of transport as a tool to get people from places where they are economically inactive to places where they will produce things/spend money. Therefore I am not convinced the government should aim for a nationalised transport system to be profit generating or break even. Taxpayer funding transport makes sense to me, because it generates returns outside of that bubble, essentially you spend x here to get back a multiple of that elsewhere.

As with most things quick fixes/gestures won't create a better system. I don't think the Tory position or labour position on this issue shows much creativity or vision if I am honest. It feels like this labour commitment is more about tipping their hat to those people who favour nationalisation rather than part of a wider programme to repurpose/reform how we look at transport.

[JamesWales]

I tend to think of transport as a tool to get people from places where they are economically inactive to places where they will produce things/spend money. Therefore I am not convinced the government should aim for a nationalised transport system to be profit generating or break even. Taxpayer funding transport makes sense to me, because it generates returns outside of that bubble, essentially you spend x here to get back a multiple of that elsewhere.

As with most things quick fixes/gestures won't create a better system. I don't think the Tory position or labour position on this issue shows much creativity or vision if I am honest. It feels like this labour commitment is more about tipping their hat to those people who favour nationalisation rather than part of a wider programme to repurpose/reform how we look at transport.

I agree. I also don't think the system is entirely broken. Until covid and WFH, the growth in passengers was huge, so some things are right. The range of universal railcards is great too. I make use of the friends and family one and it's really good.

My frustration is the prices and the complexity of fares. Add to that the recent strikes and other engineering problems and it becomes expensive and unreliable. A bad mix.

[Eric Cartman]

I agree. I also don't think the system is entirely broken. Until covid and WFH, the growth in passengers was huge, so some things are right. The range of universal railcards is great too. I make use of the friends and family one and it's really good.

My frustration is the prices and the complexity of fares. Add to that the recent strikes and other engineering problems and it becomes expensive and unreliable. A bad mix.

Some of the pricing is mental still and not because of being private/public. My base at work has recently moved out of walking distance and because of the way singles/returns are managed a single works out at £8.60 for a 12 minute journey.

[pipster]

Tbh your second paragraph is a bit off the mark. A significant amount of the operators are directly owned by foreign governments. The irony isn't lost that Pipster thinks it's somehow more efficient for the French or German government to run rail services in the UK, as opposed to the UK government and that somehow that makes railways adds accountability.

I thought I said should be modelled on the Japanese way they have done it. Where they have both a standard JapanRail option or you can ride the bullet train run my a company for extra money - that gets you there quicker. The choice is with the customer.

What I certainly dont want is a German state owner train company running UK trains and making profits that go to another country and we definitely dont want British Rail one out all out trades unions trying to hold the country to ransom - like they did in the 70's and like they have tried to do for the last couple of years here - and failed - as working from home has beaten them.

[Eric Cartman]

I thought I said should be modelled on the Japanese way they have done it. Where they have both a standard JapanRail option or you can ride the bullet train run my a company for extra money - that gets you there quicker. The choice is with the customer.

What I certainly dont want is a German state owner train company running UK trains and making profits that go to another country and we definitely dont want British Rail one out all out trades unions trying to hold the country to ransom - like they did in the 70's and like they have tried to do for the last couple of years here - and failed - as working from home has beaten them.

Well surely if 'working from home has beaten them' we have nothing to worry about?

I am not sure the country should be making decisions based on what worked or didn't work 50+ years ago, we don't want to be stuck in the past.

I agree though that competition on lines would like make for a better service, but the current system doesn't really have that.

[pipster]

Well surely if 'working from home has beaten them' we have nothing to worry about?

I am not sure the country should be making decisions based on what worked or didn't work 50+ years ago, we don't want to be stuck in the past.

I agree though that competition on lines would like make for a better service, but the current system doesn't really have that.

The only good thing about the current service is that bad suppliers can be got rid of and not have their contract renewed. Complacency and militant unionism is what bought this country to it's knees back in the 70's. British Rail new they had a monopoly - hence didnt give a stuff about anything. The Govt cant / couldn't sack British Rail - as they owned them.
I'd me very careful in thinking that Nationalisation is the panacea of all things good - as it isn't.

[Eric Cartman]

The only good thing about the current service is that bad suppliers can be got rid of and not have their contract renewed. Complacency and militant unionism is what bought this country to it's knees back in the 70's. British Rail new they had a monopoly - hence didnt give a stuff about anything. The Govt cant / couldn't sack British Rail - as they owned them.
I'd me very careful in thinking that Nationalisation is the panacea of all things good - as it isn't.

Well thankfully as you should be able to tell from my posts within this thread, I don't think in those terms. I want our elected officials to actually be in control of things and therefore accountable. My view is simple, if a private company can run a decent service then so can a nationalised entity, if you disagree, it's actually you that is the ideologue not me.

[pipster]

"My view is simple, if a private company can run a decent service then so can a nationalised entity"
You are right - that is a simple view.

[goats]

Labour are suggesting they might do it?

If its cost effective let's have it !

And make energy , broadband , phones all in one

I can barely remember the last time I caught a train, prob going to Bristol for a night with the family, reasonable price for that but going to London or Manchester etc seemed way overpriced. Trains should be cheap, it would then take loads of heat off the roads which are a nightmare these days but folk can’t afford the trains…..if you can run an amazing train service in a country the size of India, which relies on it heavily, why the f can’t we here? It’s just rip off Britain as ever. Think I paid about a tenner to go from Delhi to Mumbai, 2 days on a sleeper with a meal thrown in…..

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

I can barely remember the last time I caught a train, prob going to Bristol for a night with the family, reasonable price for that but going to London or Manchester etc seemed way overpriced. Trains should be cheap, it would then take loads of heat off the roads which are a nightmare these days but folk can’t afford the trains…..if you can run an amazing train service in a country the size of India, which relies on it heavily, why the f can’t we here? It’s just rip off Britain as ever. Think I paid about a tenner to go from Delhi to Mumbai, 2 days on a sleeper with a meal thrown in…..

Chicken Tikka Masala ?

[Eric Cartman]

"My view is simple, if a private company can run a decent service then so can a nationalised entity"
You are right - that is a simple view.

At least we've defined our roles now. I'm the person who is open to ideas and looking for the best way forward and you are the old codger saying 'in the 70..'

[pipster]

At least we've defined our roles now. I'm the person who is open to ideas and looking for the best way forward and you are the old codger saying 'in the 70..'

It doesnt matter what bloody decade it was in. A bad business model is a bad business model - yet people still want to try it.
For any sector to work - it needs competition, innovation, ability to pivot ie the ability to de couple the various components of the model. Putting them into effectively one big single point of failure - is wrong - plain and simple.

[Eric Cartman]

It doesnt matter what bloody decade it was in. A bad business model is a bad business model - yet people still want to try it.
For any sector to work - it needs competition, innovation, ability to pivot ie the ability to de couple the various components of the model. Putting them into effectively one big single point of failure - is wrong - plain and simple.

Do we need a private police force or armed forces to ensure efficiency?

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Do we need a private police force or armed forces to ensure efficiency?

No but the Tories will try it one day

[life on mars]

Nationalisation was and is a unworkable mechism in theses times, unless you can except a raid on you pensions, tax, cost of living will rise... No way on earth could the UK nationalise the rolling stock, the rail companies are easy pickings to fund.

Don't be fooled by Labours nationalisation blabbering, they would bring back flares if it gave them power..


In reality the current government has taken back into government ownership anyway.

In 2014, Network Rail was classified as a "government body" and the company's debt of £34 billion was added was to the national debt...

In 2016–17 , Network Rail's net debt rose from £41.6 billion to £46.3 billion....


Yey all good.. Sly Sir Kier knows this..