The Donald Trump thread

[Wales-Bales]

Yeah, fancy me not being able to recognise Messrs Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Farage and Trump for the men of the people they so obviously are.

You should know by the way the press treat them that they are not part of the team. They only have shake things up a bit, everything else is down to the people to ensure they put the right candidates forward in future elections. Boris only has one job, and that is to return sovereignty to Westminster. Once he has achieved that he becomes redundent in my book.

[jon1959]

You should know by the way the press treat them that they are not part of the team. They only have shake things up a bit, everything else is down to the people to ensure they put the right candidates forward in future elections. Boris only has one job, and that is to return sovereignty to Westminster. Once he has achieved that he becomes redundent in my book.

Ah... the sovereignty myth!

This is part of the Little Englander narrative that has the UK giving all that money to the European superstate, run by a shadowy arm of the Globalist Illuminati (High priestess - Hillary Clinton), that insists on making or subverting all our laws and making us buy straight bananas?

In truth sovereignty is pooled through the EU - with increasing control over decisions made via the elected parliament or through inter governmental meetings. Most of the fact checking reports i have read over the years say that the UK has very very little imposed on it that it doesn't agree with, or indeed initiate. In some ways the UK has been imposing it's views on other European countries through the EEC/EU for 45 years - despite the German-French axis. Apart from the gravy-train bureaucrats insisting on straight bananas, there has been very little to get excited about (unless you are wtiting the leader columns for the Sun, Mail, Express etc).

The sovereignty myth also assumes that national governments (through law making and revenue raising) control what happens within their borders, or across their borders. Ever since the start of global capitalism (not your construct of Globalism) and the post-war total reliance on fuel, material and food imports to much of the world, that has been untrue. What is sovereignty worth if all it means is the ability of elected MPs or judges (much hated by the advocates of national sovereignty) to be blown away by a computer virus or an oil price hike? Governmental power over laws and money is important, but they are just a couple of levers amongst many - and the people holding the other ones don't live in Westminster!

[Wales-Bales]

Ah... the sovereignty myth!

This is part of the Little Englander narrative that has the UK giving all that money to the European superstate, run by a shadowy arm of the Globalist Illuminati (High priestess - Hillary Clinton), that insists on making or subverting all our laws and making us buy straight bananas?

In truth sovereignty is pooled through the EU - with increasing control over decisions made via the elected parliament or through inter governmental meetings. Most of the fact checking reports i have read over the years say that the UK has very very little imposed on it that it doesn't agree with, or indeed initiate. In some ways the UK has been imposing it's views on other European countries through the EEC/EU for 45 years - despite the German-French axis. Apart from the gravy-train bureaucrats insisting on straight bananas, there has been very little to get excited about (unless you are wtiting the leader columns for the Sun, Mail, Express etc).

The sovereignty myth also assumes that national governments (through law making and revenue raising) control what happens within their borders, or across their borders. Ever since the start of global capitalism (not your construct of Globalism) and the post-war total reliance on fuel, material and food imports to much of the world, that has been untrue. What is sovereignty worth if all it means is the ability of elected MPs or judges (much hated by the advocates of national sovereignty) to be blown away by a computer virus or an oil price hike? Governmental power over laws and money is important, but they are just a couple of levers amongst many - and the people holding the other ones don't live in Westminster!

I was thinking more about trade deals that best serve our own economic interests, and determing our own economic future. Why are you so determined to stay in the EU at any cost?

[jon1959]

I was thinking more about trade deals that best serve our own economic interests, and determing our own economic future. Why are you so determined to stay in the EU at any cost?

I don't think I am determined to stay in the EU at any cost. But I am happy to stay (and hope to see reforms) on the basis of the current and anticipated future costs. I expect us to leave, though (but maybe not by the next deadline).

In the 1970s (if I had been old enough to vote) I would have probably voted against joining the EEC. A lot of people on the political left supported Brexit on the strength of their opposition four decades or more ago. They voted against the Bosses Club. But I agree with most on the left (and the TUC) that the EU has evolved to become a major protector of environmental and employment rights, and to potentially be a progressive bloc in a world where we have to work together to achieve anything good. It still has 1950-70s 'free market' anti-statism baked into its' DNA, but compared to the USA or Russia (and probably Brazil and India) it is a milder version.

The argument that constantly amazes me though is the one that talks about 'our' interests as if a shared culture of watching the Morecambe & Wise Christmas Special means that I have the same interests and values as Boris Johnson or Jacob Rees-Mogg! I have no common interest with them (and nor do many of the people who slavishly support them and their party). Even less Nigel Farage and his supposed non-racist UKIP creation. I feel more in common with public sector workers in Belgium or people in former steel cities in central Europe, or even with Spanish farmers, than I do with wealthy old-Etonians and proud former members of the Bullington Club! If my future is going to be directed by a Tory (or Christian Democrat) I would prefer, on balance, that it was Angela Merkel calling the shots rather than Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson!

That and an end to wars in Europe - which always seemed to me to be a genuine and powerful reason for European unity.

Welsh, British and European - sounds good to me.