Scottish Independence

[Moodybluebird]

Regarding the armed forces, nothing would change other than an independent Scotland having to contribute to the defence budget. I could not imagine any circumstances under which they would be prepared or allowed to create their own defence force.

[xsnaggle]

Regarding the armed forces, nothing would change other than an independent Scotland having to contribute to the defence budget. I could not imagine any circumstances under which they would be prepared or allowed to create their own defence force.

I meant to comment on this before. you say what you say with the utter confidence of someone who is convinced of his own opinion. I don't mean that nastily but I cannot see what the confidence is built on.
When southern Ireland ceded from the union it raised its own defence force so why shouldn't Scotland? I recall during the last referendum Scottish pro independence people saying they would run Faslane on a commercial business servicing and repairing the ships of any Navy that paid for their services. The British government said at the time that the could not permit any submarine to enter Faslane that may have an effect on the UK's national interests. Can you imagine Russian boomer turning up to get serviced? It would never be allowed to happen.
But if as you say they just contribute to the overall defence costs and UK continues to protect them where will the get the money from and who will foot the bill for UK Troops in Scottish garrisons?. Will they also be part of NATO and how will they contribute to that?

All these things just add more and more costs to the strain already on the budget and Ms Sturgeon has just pledged that if they win the election they will double family benefit. Additionally in the short term at least they will be a loss of jobs, particularly if the military in Scotland is downsized. And I don't just mean the troops but all the civilians that work in the dockyards airfields and barracks and all the small companies that supply them. And that has another knock on effect to the community businesses that those unemployed people used to spend their money in.
I can't honestly see how they will be able to sustain and (as they aspire) increase the standards of living of the population with the burden of all the costs their independence will land them with. Loss of jobs will also decrease tax revenue decrease VAT revenue and increase the burden of unemployment benefits and the other payments that support families.

Someone said they will get a lump from the pension pot but that is not how it works. When it was set up it was on the principle that what is collected in pay packets this week goes out to the pensioners next week, and despite the growing cost that is still the principle it is based on. They didn't start taking NI payment months before they began paying pensions in is an in-out system. The government meets the weekly shortfall from other revenue but it was never intended for that to need to happen.
So if they leave they will have to collect from a reduced work force and find more money to sustain the level of payments.
Also if all the pension and financial institutions feel the need to migrate to the remaining UK where the vast majority of their business is they will take a good number of their workers with them, further reducing the number paying into the government communal pot and leaving a higher percentage of non working population to care fo.

I think people may think from this that I believe the biggest problem for them is and will be financial. And the high minded and very honourable feelings of Scottish Patriotism will feel cold in the stomach when there is no food on the table for the children

[Taunton Blue Genie]

I meant to comment on this before. you say what you say with the utter confidence of someone who is convinced of his own opinion. I don't mean that nastily but I cannot see what the confidence is built on.
When southern Ireland ceded from the union it raised its own defence force so why shouldn't Scotland? I recall during the last referendum Scottish pro independence people saying they would run Faslane on a commercial business servicing and repairing the ships of any Navy that paid for their services. The British government said at the time that the could not permit any submarine to enter Faslane that may have an effect on the UK's national interests. Can you imagine Russian boomer turning up to get serviced? It would never be allowed to happen.
But if as you say they just contribute to the overall defence costs and UK continues to protect them where will the get the money from and who will foot the bill for UK Troops in Scottish garrisons?. Will they also be part of NATO and how will they contribute to that?

All these things just add more and more costs to the strain already on the budget and Ms Sturgeon has just pledged that if they win the election they will double family benefit. Additionally in the short term at least they will be a loss of jobs, particularly if the military in Scotland is downsized. And I don't just mean the troops but all the civilians that work in the dockyards airfields and barracks and all the small companies that supply them. And that has another knock on effect to the community businesses that those unemployed people used to spend their money in.
I can't honestly see how they will be able to sustain and (as they aspire) increase the standards of living of the population with the burden of all the costs their independence will land them with. Loss of jobs will also decrease tax revenue decrease VAT revenue and increase the burden of unemployment benefits and the other payments that support families.

Someone said they will get a lump from the pension pot but that is not how it works. When it was set up it was on the principle that what is collected in pay packets this week goes out to the pensioners next week, and despite the growing cost that is still the principle it is based on. They didn't start taking NI payment months before they began paying pensions in is an in-out system. The government meets the weekly shortfall from other revenue but it was never intended for that to need to happen.
So if they leave they will have to collect from a reduced work force and find more money to sustain the level of payments.
Also if all the pension and financial institutions feel the need to migrate to the remaining UK where the vast majority of their business is they will take a good number of their workers with them, further reducing the number paying into the government communal pot and leaving a higher percentage of non working population to care fo.

I think people may think from this that I believe the biggest problem for them is and will be financial. And the high minded and very honourable feelings of Scottish Patriotism will feel cold in the stomach when there is no food on the table for the children

Going off at a tangent, Ireland doesn't chart its own waters. That task is still carried out by the UK government, which also owns most of the IP therein.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

I meant to comment on this before. you say what you say with the utter confidence of someone who is convinced of his own opinion. I don't mean that nastily but I cannot see what the confidence is built on.
When southern Ireland ceded from the union it raised its own defence force so why shouldn't Scotland? I recall during the last referendum Scottish pro independence people saying they would run Faslane on a commercial business servicing and repairing the ships of any Navy that paid for their services. The British government said at the time that the could not permit any submarine to enter Faslane that may have an effect on the UK's national interests. Can you imagine Russian boomer turning up to get serviced? It would never be allowed to happen.
But if as you say they just contribute to the overall defence costs and UK continues to protect them where will the get the money from and who will foot the bill for UK Troops in Scottish garrisons?. Will they also be part of NATO and how will they contribute to that?

All these things just add more and more costs to the strain already on the budget and Ms Sturgeon has just pledged that if they win the election they will double family benefit. Additionally in the short term at least they will be a loss of jobs, particularly if the military in Scotland is downsized. And I don't just mean the troops but all the civilians that work in the dockyards airfields and barracks and all the small companies that supply them. And that has another knock on effect to the community businesses that those unemployed people used to spend their money in.
I can't honestly see how they will be able to sustain and (as they aspire) increase the standards of living of the population with the burden of all the costs their independence will land them with. Loss of jobs will also decrease tax revenue decrease VAT revenue and increase the burden of unemployment benefits and the other payments that support families.

Someone said they will get a lump from the pension pot but that is not how it works. When it was set up it was on the principle that what is collected in pay packets this week goes out to the pensioners next week, and despite the growing cost that is still the principle it is based on. They didn't start taking NI payment months before they began paying pensions in is an in-out system. The government meets the weekly shortfall from other revenue but it was never intended for that to need to happen.
So if they leave they will have to collect from a reduced work force and find more money to sustain the level of payments.
Also if all the pension and financial institutions feel the need to migrate to the remaining UK where the vast majority of their business is they will take a good number of their workers with them, further reducing the number paying into the government communal pot and leaving a higher percentage of non working population to care fo.

I think people may think from this that I believe the biggest problem for them is and will be financial. And the high minded and very honourable feelings of Scottish Patriotism will feel cold in the stomach when there is no food on the table for the children

I find it odd, in a way, that those of a right wing persuasion use tales of economic woe in order to keep Scotland at the UK table, yet generally right wing politics looks at ways of saving taxpayer money and surely Scotland leaving the UK would do such a thing?

I feel that there's an element of Scotland needing to be "told of their place" to keep them in the UK. That's horrific. Scotland don't need to be told of where they stand by anyone else.

Wales has suffered the same. We became, during Victorian times, the stereotype of what England thought we were.

[LeningradCowboy]

I find it odd, in a way, that those of a right wing persuasion use tales of economic woe in order to keep Scotland at the UK table, yet generally right wing politics looks at ways of saving taxpayer money and surely Scotland leaving the UK would do such a thing?

I feel that there's an element of Scotland needing to be "told of their place" to keep them in the UK. That's horrific. Scotland don't need to be told of where they stand by anyone else.

Wales has suffered the same. We became, during Victorian times, the stereotype of what England thought we were.

Perhaps the rest of us should have a referendum on kicking them out.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

I find it odd, in a way, that those of a right wing persuasion use tales of economic woe in order to keep Scotland at the UK table, yet generally right wing politics looks at ways of saving taxpayer money and surely Scotland leaving the UK would do such a thing?

I feel that there's an element of Scotland needing to be "told of their place" to keep them in the UK. That's horrific. Scotland don't need to be told of where they stand by anyone else.

Wales has suffered the same. We became, during Victorian times, the stereotype of what England thought we were.

I understand what you mean and in many ways England would be better off shedding Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland - but I think that there is tremendous affection for the Scots in England and across the political divide.

[xsnaggle]

I find it odd, in a way, that those of a right wing persuasion use tales of economic woe in order to keep Scotland at the UK table, yet generally right wing politics looks at ways of saving taxpayer money and surely Scotland leaving the UK would do such a thing?

I feel that there's an element of Scotland needing to be "told of their place" to keep them in the UK. That's horrific. Scotland don't need to be told of where they stand by anyone else.

Wales has suffered the same. We became, during Victorian times, the stereotype of what England thought we were.

I am not trying to tell tales of economic woe to keep them at the table at all, in fact I'd be quite happy if the bugger off, I don't really care one way or the other. I just feel that perhaps as with Brexit, the jingoism is hiding the harsh economic reality. And their new economic reality will be far harsher I believe than anything Brexit may have allegedly inflicted on them.

You are quite right, the Scots don't need to be told where they stand by anyone else, but they do deserve to be told it by their own politicians who hide the truth from them for their own political ends. However badly it might go their place in history is assured

[LeningradCowboy]

I meant to comment on this before. you say what you say with the utter confidence of someone who is convinced of his own opinion. I don't mean that nastily but I cannot see what the confidence is built on.
When southern Ireland ceded from the union it raised its own defence force so why shouldn't Scotland? I recall during the last referendum Scottish pro independence people saying they would run Faslane on a commercial business servicing and repairing the ships of any Navy that paid for their services. The British government said at the time that the could not permit any submarine to enter Faslane that may have an effect on the UK's national interests. Can you imagine Russian boomer turning up to get serviced? It would never be allowed to happen.
But if as you say they just contribute to the overall defence costs and UK continues to protect them where will the get the money from and who will foot the bill for UK Troops in Scottish garrisons?. Will they also be part of NATO and how will they contribute to that?

All these things just add more and more costs to the strain already on the budget and Ms Sturgeon has just pledged that if they win the election they will double family benefit. Additionally in the short term at least they will be a loss of jobs, particularly if the military in Scotland is downsized. And I don't just mean the troops but all the civilians that work in the dockyards airfields and barracks and all the small companies that supply them. And that has another knock on effect to the community businesses that those unemployed people used to spend their money in.
I can't honestly see how they will be able to sustain and (as they aspire) increase the standards of living of the population with the burden of all the costs their independence will land them with. Loss of jobs will also decrease tax revenue decrease VAT revenue and increase the burden of unemployment benefits and the other payments that support families.

Someone said they will get a lump from the pension pot but that is not how it works. When it was set up it was on the principle that what is collected in pay packets this week goes out to the pensioners next week, and despite the growing cost that is still the principle it is based on. They didn't start taking NI payment months before they began paying pensions in is an in-out system. The government meets the weekly shortfall from other revenue but it was never intended for that to need to happen.
So if they leave they will have to collect from a reduced work force and find more money to sustain the level of payments.
Also if all the pension and financial institutions feel the need to migrate to the remaining UK where the vast majority of their business is they will take a good number of their workers with them, further reducing the number paying into the government communal pot and leaving a higher percentage of non working population to care fo.

I think people may think from this that I believe the biggest problem for them is and will be financial. And the high minded and very honourable feelings of Scottish Patriotism will feel cold in the stomach when there is no food on the table for the children

It amazes me how many people don't understand this.