Club Debt

[dml1954]

Our gates are truly dreadful for the position we are in.

The last time we went up to the Prem our gates/support had built up over a number of seasons where we had been getting closer each year and having the FA and Carling cup runs as well. Whereas now this has all happened very quickly after a three year period of failure/relegation, cost cutting and dire football. Therefore in my opinion to achieve a 21% increase in gates in the last twelve months is a major achievement and should be celebrated. Everybody would like to see the ground full every week like last time, although even then it was only the last five or six home games where attendances 'took off'. I think that people who continually go on about the attendances being poor (or dreadful) and the quality of play like 'hoof ball', when it isnt, could actually be doing the club a disservice and putting off 'floating' fans from coming along.

[the other bob wilson]

The last time we went up to the Prem our gates/support had built up over a number of seasons where we had been getting closer each year and having the FA and Carling cup runs as well. Whereas now this has all happened very quickly after a three year period of failure/relegation, cost cutting and dire football. Therefore in my opinion to achieve a 21% increase in gates in the last twelve months is a major achievement and should be celebrated. Everybody would like to see the ground full every week like last time, although even then it was only the last five or six home games where attendances 'took off'. I think that people who continually go on about the attendances being poor (or dreadful) and the quality of play like 'hoof ball', when it isnt, could actually be doing the club a disservice and putting off 'floating' fans from coming along.

Let's be honest, you think someone who says they don't like Neil Warnock's haircut is doing the club a disservice .

Not sure where you get your 21% increase in attendances figure from either, this site

http://www.worldfootball.net/attenda...p-2016-2017/1/

has us averaging 16,564 last season and 18,886 this time around - I make an increase of 2,322 on a gate of 16,564 to be under 15%

[The Lone Gunman]

I haven't downloaded the club's accounts for years (the last set I have is 2011). So my questions for Keith are:

1) Has the club's overall level of debt ever been larger?

2) Has the club ever made bigger losses than the £21.3 million in 2016/17?

3) Whatever happened to the debt to equity conversions that the club publicly claimed were going to happen in 2016?

https://www.cardiffcityfc.co.uk/news...tement-120216/

[Vindec]

I haven't downloaded the club's accounts for years (the last set I have is 2011). So my questions for Keith are:

1) Has the club's overall level of debt ever been larger?

2) Has the club ever made bigger losses than the £21.3 million in 2016/17?

3) Whatever happened to the debt to equity conversions that the club publicly claimed were going to happen in 2016?

https://www.cardiffcityfc.co.uk/news...tement-120216/

I think the writer knows the answer to the first two questions already. Whichever way you look at this there can be no doubt that the club needs Vincent Tan more than he needs us. Without his support we would be well and truly in the mire.

[The Lone Gunman]

I think the writer knows the answer to the first two questions already. Whichever way you look at this there can be no doubt that the club needs Vincent Tan more than he needs us. Without his support we would be well and truly in the mire.

The writer knows no such thing. In this thread, dml1954 claims "only a few years ago the debt stood at over £135 million." Is he right? To be honest, I have no idea, although I do recall reading a previous figure of around £120 million at one stage.

As regards question two, I'd be surprised if CCFC has ever lost more than £21.3 million in a season before, although I don't know how much the club spent getting to the Premier League in 2012/13. I have a feeling that the losses for that year might have been on a par, if not a little higher than 2016/17.

[Since62]

The writer knows no such thing. In this thread, dml1954 claims "only a few years ago the debt stood at over £135 million." Is he right? To be honest, I have no idea, although I do recall reading a previous figure of around £120 million at one stage.

As regards question two, I'd be surprised if CCFC has ever lost more than £21.3 million in a season before, although I don't know how much the club spent getting to the Premier League in 2012/13. I have a feeling that the losses for that year might have been on a par, if not a little higher than 2016/17.

Dave

Following your post , I have had a quick look back as far as the year ended 31 May 2012. The loss that year was £13m.
From then until May 2017 , the losses have been £30.4m 2013 (I seem to recall that figure included promotion bonuses of around £8m) , £12m in 2014 , a profit of £3.9m in 2015 (this was distorted by the need to apply a new accounting requirement which improved profits by around £13m) , a loss of £8.7m in 2016 and now a loss of £21.1m in 2017.

As for Vincent Tan debt write-offs or debt to equity swaps , there were none prior to the year ended 31 May 2015. In that year there was a debt write=off of £13m , followed by a further write-off of £10m in 2016.
The first debt to equity swap was in 2016/17 and was £8m. In June 2017 (i.e. after the May 2017 accounts year end) , there was a further debt to equity swap of £12.7m

The net liabilities (total liabilities less total assets) total as at 31 May 2017 was £80.8m. It has never been higher to my knowledge. I think the far higher figures people are quoting are the gross debts of the club (i.e. before offsetting the value of assets). For example , in the year to 31 May 2014 , there were gross debts of £157.2m (higher than the £151.9m as at 31 May 2017) , but there were assets of £91.4m to set off against this , taking the net liabilities down to £65.8m.

Keith

[The Lone Gunman]

Dave

Following your post , I have had a quick look back as far as the year ended 31 May 2012. The loss that year was £13m.
From then until May 2017 , the losses have been £30.4m 2013 (I seem to recall that figure included promotion bonuses of around £8m) , £12m in 2014 , a profit of £3.9m in 2015 (this was distorted by the need to apply a new accounting requirement which improved profits by around £13m) , a loss of £8.7m in 2016 and now a loss of £21.1m in 2017.

As for Vincent Tan debt write-offs or debt to equity swaps , there were none prior to the year ended 31 May 2015. In that year there was a debt write=off of £13m , followed by a further write-off of £10m in 2016.
The first debt to equity swap was in 2016/17 and was £8m. In June 2017 (i.e. after the May 2017 accounts year end) , there was a further debt to equity swap of £12.7m

The net liabilities (total liabilities less total assets) total as at 31 May 2017 was £80.8m. It has never been higher to my knowledge. I think the far higher figures people are quoting are the gross debts of the club (i.e. before offsetting the value of assets). For example , in the year to 31 May 2014 , there were gross debts of £157.2m (higher than the £151.9m as at 31 May 2017) , but there were assets of £91.4m to set off against this , taking the net liabilities down to £65.8m.

Keith

Cheers Keith, appreciated.

It would be good if someone who has all the necessary figures could draw up a definitive but simple list of losses/profits over, say, the last ten or fifteen years, together with the levels of the club's debt at each year end. I did something similar for this board around 2009, but than was on my old computer and I don't still have the document on file. I think a simple record of losses and overall debts for each season would give those of us who are interested a clearer picture of the state of the club's finances.

[life on mars]

I think the writer knows the answer to the first two questions already. Whichever way you look at this there can be no doubt that the club needs Vincent Tan more than he needs us. Without his support we would be well and truly in the mire.

As time goes by, so does costs , every business would see larger debts , turnovers, its the nature of the beast and the market place were in , hugely dictated by inflated transfer fee's , wages and agent fees , the club has not raised the season ticket price significantly in recent years ,which is a great gesture .

We either want to be part of this race to the top or not if we do it comes with debt unless fans decide to attend in bigger numbers ?

In my opinion Tan has not ignored the promised and has gradually moved values from debt to equity ,'I'm guessing there is a good reason for not transferring the lot to equity in one go , what I do know he's been a loyal owner , and funded our club to keep us at the standards were at now .

[Chris Pontprennau Blues]

TLG - are going to some games now?

Ignore now seen your earlier comment - glad to hear you go to some games