Originally Posted by Vindec
The joy of government is that the people are stupid
That evil man Hitler said that and sadly there is more than a grain of truth in it
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The joy of government is that the people are stupid
That evil man Hitler said that and sadly there is more than a grain of truth in it
Tell me, why do you think ex miners and families of ex miners decided to vote Conservative this time? Just saying such people are stupid is not going to get any of the opposition parties anywhere.
I am afraid that's a huge part of the problem , people who live in the former heavy industrialised areas of the UK , areas that got a lot of aid from Europe in the form of infrastructure , social projects , grants to attract industry from overseas from the European social fund .......vote to leave Europe .......and then vote Tory ......who have savaged the very services they rely on
If they are not stupid then there must be another word for it
But I am afraid corbyn and his gang must take the blame for the scale of this defeat
(https://twitter.com/JamieJBartlett/s...34069544243202)Two lessons the political strategists will take into the 2024 elections: the truth is secondary to slogans & you can avoid mainstream media interviews without cost.
(Linked to story showing 88% of Tory ads, and 0% of Labour ads, are misleading - https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/s...43787906048000)The reforms we urgently need to protect our democracy now have no chance of happening. Not in UK. Not in US.
(Page 48 of Tory Manifesto, written after our Prime Minister was found to have lied to the Queen and unlawfully shut down parliament - https://www.indy100.com/article/page...tution-9234351).We will ensure that judicial review is available to protect the rights of the individuals against an overbearing state, while ensuring that it is not abused to conduct politics by another means or to create needless delays.
Huge numbers in England and Wales voted for what? Their manifesto is short, they have avoided interviews where their opinions get scrutinized, but it seems that despite massive domestic issues the Conservatives are promising little change while on an international level they're going to rip apart our existing structure which only a tiny minority of extremists were talking about before 2015. I get that for some people the EU was restrictive or interfering but for many it was a safety net and that has now been wiped away on the encouragement of those aforementioned extremists who weren't really adversely impacted by it beforehand.... I just hope they're replacing that safety net for the vulnerable with something better, and yet they're only talking about rolling back the state further so I have my doubts.
There are a number of reasons not to vote for this edition of Labour, I get that, but we're now far more likely to be lied to by politicians so our future decisions are more misinformed and the majority voted for that. On a political level, that I don't get.
On a human level, the constituency where Grenfell stood (you know, the one where local authority gave back money to the wealthiest rather than spend their budget on protecting poor people in a tower block who had made several complaints about lack of safety, then the Tory party made it into a joke and heckled Corbyn for wearing a ribbon to commemorate it.) and the constituency represented by Alun Cairns (you know, the one where he resigned from his government position a few months ago because he lied about knowing and refused to apologise for an aid who sabotaged a rape trial) both voted for the Conservative party. That I don't get.
Maybe this is generation too; many people voting this time have no connection too the miners in their families besides some brass lamps in their grandparents house. Plus I think like brexit many older people wanted out of Europe as they incorrectly think rules from Europe and immigrants ruin the country. Is that stupid to think that or just poor education? Generally its down to the quality of information available
It's more than "generational" - do we not need to ask ourselves who are the working class any more? The traditional image of the slightly down trodden looking man in a dai cap and dungarees is massively outdated.
As one of the "older people" who voted for Brexit (possibly stupid or poorly educated but having a first degree and a PhD), can I say that I voted that way not because of rules from Europe or immigrants ruining the country but because of the colossal expense of running the huge bureaucratic and unaccountable monster that the EU has become. Simple as that.
Except running that huge monster.... keeps the markets we use open; with out it we have......
I am old enough to remember the Common Market and that did exactly that!
... the entire world?
Maybe this is generation too; many people voting this time have no connection too the miners in their families besides some brass lamps in their grandparents house. Plus I think like brexit many older people wanted out of Europe as they incorrectly think rules from Europe and immigrants ruin the country. Is that stupid to think that or just poor education? Generally its down to the quality of information available
That sounds like you're agreeing with me then to an extent. What needs to be kept track of is that significant numbers of working class voters who would have been thought of as dyed in the wool Labour chose to vote Leave in 2016 at a time when Corbyn had been leader for less than a year and antiSemitism was not the issue it became - I don't see that those subjects were that relevant then.
Yes, traditional labour voters voted leave. The current Labour Party is run by middle class from London boroughs, with no interest in traditional working class areas. Labour Party decisions are made by people from a few seats in London, not labour heartland. London voted to remain; those MP’s kept their seats... very socialist of them... that’s what people ignore the labour people running the party all kept their seats and their voters liked the remain message
The next labour leader will probably be a woman’s from the north to try and win those votes; will try to never mention brexit and will still push the same policies as the liberals have also shown there are no votes in the middle ground
I broadly agree with your first paragraph and I think you might well be right about a woman leader.
This is a golden example of why Labour just got hammered in the polls - Labour leaders, supporters and Momentum still believe that anyone who voted for Brexit or Conservatives must be stupid or ill educated. They have obviously learnt nothing from what has happened.
There were certainly remainers who were arrogant in their vote in the initial referendum and aftermath but this arrogance was weaponised by the Tory party and Vote Leave who had done their best to promote ignorance through their misinformation campaign. I can honestly say that my understanding of the EU now is limited but it's so much more than was at the time of the initial referendum, and considering the bad information politician and pundits have come out with before and since I reckon, if being honest, most would say the same. It doesn't demonstrate ignorance to know you're not well informed, it demonstrates intelligence and maturity.
Wouldn't it negligent for people to i) not meet with leave voters and ask why they did it and ii) if they are best supported by staying in the EU to openly say that and pull in that direction? We instead have a government telling us not to believe in experts and predictions done by their own civil service and instead believe in Boris saying "well I tell you different." By the end, Arlene Foster (paid billions by the Tory party) said she didn't trust Boris!
Brexit being sorted by this vote is in itself misleading. We have a withdrawal agreement (as we would have if Boris etc. had voted with Theresa May) but Brexit isn't finished until we have a trade agreement with the EU. Brexit fatigue may make that a more rapid process but how many good decisions are made when fatigued and frustrated?
I mean, it's all done now, but ultimately we now have a government who changed their twitter handle to make it look like a fact-checking website (arguing CCHQ was understood enough that it wouldn't mislead people, suggesting the press would have adapted the website to encourage distrust in the media challenging them) are willing to create a fake news story regarding an aid getting hit to distract from a bad news story for our Prime Minister, have 88% of their social media ads be classed as misleading (compared to 0% of Labours)....we have a government who have promoted ignorance and won votes by telling voters the other side consider them stupid. Labour not responding well enough to that is not the biggest issue we have.
So you reckon there were no Labour leaders, supporters or Momentum officials who voted for Brexit?
Give your head a wobble, you idiot.
Rude little man. You're frustrated because you don't understand the point being made..
He's on some good medication, i'll give him that. The real left have no time for the EU, they see it as neo liberal and pro business. Johnson wants out because he and his chums are to the right of the EU, it's got ****all to do with honouring the referendum.
Churchill said it best.
Churchill said it best.
Only it was one of many quotes attributed to him that there is no evidence he ever uttered!
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