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Thread: Gina Miller

  1. #26

    Re: Gina Miller

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    The Tories have an absolute majority (just like Labour did with Blair) - (if) they wanted to and they had enough of their MPs on side - then in theory they can pass whatever laws they want - that is democracy.

    This whole argument is having the exact outcome Gina Miller wanted though - red tape followed by procedural law semantics etc etc and as I said the oriny or irony - it going to the EU court to decide.

    Monty Python could only have dreamed of stuff like this
    It's a small majority, it would still have to go to Lords and it would (I would hope) be such an undemocratic thing that enough MPs would oppose it. What you're suggesting in this hypothetical, if I understand it, is that the power of the public to stand up to the government be removed. In effect, turning the UK into a dictatorship.

    It amazes me that there are people, whether you agree with the outcome to this particular one or not, who think that she (and by extension any of us) shouldn't be allowed to challenge the government. We're so lucky to be able to do this, I imagine the majority of global citizens can't (I haven't researched the numbers).

    Perhaps one day UK citizens won't be able to do it. That's not going to make our lives any better.

  2. #27

    Re: Gina Miller

    If its as simple as you say, I have two questions.

    1. Why didn't the government do this (just change the law)?
    2. Why have I never seen a political commentator suggest this action as an option?

  3. #28

    Re: Gina Miller

    Quote Originally Posted by Nelsonca61 View Post
    Agreed,
    Do you believe that all citizens of the said country should act within the law ?
    Yes.

  4. #29

    Re: Gina Miller

    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs Steve R View Post
    Did you get that from a Christmas cracker?
    *when people notice.

  5. #30

    Re: Gina Miller

    Quote Originally Posted by lardy View Post
    If its as simple as you say, I have two questions.

    1. Why didn't the government do this (just change the law)?
    2. Why have I never seen a political commentator suggest this action as an option?
    It all sounds like wishing for more wishes to me. Surely it isn't possible.

  6. #31

    Re: Gina Miller

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    It all sounds like wishing for more wishes to me. Surely it isn't possible.
    If we're all being honest with ourselves, we don't really understand the workings. I would strongly suspect that reforming the Supreme Court (again) and the government backtracking on tuition fees are not at all similar, and neither could be called 'passing a law'.

    So of course it isn't possible. It goes without saying that if the government isn't already doing 'roughly what it wants' regarding this then it can't.

  7. #32

    Re: Gina Miller

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Llanedeyrnblue View Post
    Brexit means Brexit



    It's a pointless sound bite by a Prime Minister who appears to specialise in them. She doesn't seem anywhere near as bad as her predecessor was, but she does confirm a general impression that this Government isn't much cop and and would be in some trouble if the main opposition party was not a complete and utter shambles.
    She rarely says anything of real gravitas. The speech about Brexit being for everyone is quite typical of her utterances. Totally vacuous.

  8. #33

    Re: Gina Miller

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    I dont know if you noticed - but the referendum result was a few months back and the court case not long afterwards - for things of a 'law' and politics' matter - this is lightning fast seeing how slowly the wheels of that industry usually turn.

    The Govt would react to this decision - rather than proactively go about changing laws - as that can take forever and a day - and they dont have that long.

    Secondly if you (like I do) watch the Daily Politics show on the BBC - I have seen various political 'experts' on procedural process of the house of commons etc talking about what measures are at hand for the Govt to do this. I always thought that laws had to go first. second, third reading, then the green paper process before erc. But according to some boffins on there - there are a few options open to them - including one where it has to be completed in one day. It's NYE so I wont be googling it today.
    It very interesting how the wheels of power have been set up isn't it.

  9. #34
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    Re: Gina Miller

    Quote Originally Posted by Llanedeyrnblue View Post
    Brexit means Brexit
    Quote Originally Posted by jon1959 View Post
    Yes, but what does that mean?
    Quote Originally Posted by Llanedeyrnblue View Post
    It means that was what the majority of those that took part in the referendum voted for. Which was to leave the European Union
    Yes - that is what was on the ballot paper but it doesn't answer the question.

    Will the UK leave and adopt a Norway/Switzerland/Canada relationship with the EU? Will it follow some other model? Will we leave the EU and its institutions and have no trade, 'security', environmental.... agreements in place. Will Brexit be hard or soft? I hate the terms, but they do attempt to describe the range of relationships, agreements and treaties that could replace what we have now.

    The most annoying thing about 'Brexit means brexit' is that it means nothing. It is (as others have said on this thread) a vacuous soundbite. When challenged Brexiteers pile in to explain to simpletons like me what the vote really meant - and every one of them puts their own spin and interpretation on a ballot question that was deliberately open and vague, and produces mutually contradictory answers on both process and outcome. Most of them would be disasterous in my view - with the UK lunatics screwing up our asylum.

    Yes leave - but you can be out and yet still have ties to the EU like other non-EU states, and many on the leave side were advocating these alternative models during the campaign. Then a few campaigners for constitutional and legal clarity come along and get destroyed by the mainstream press and the alt squad for daring to say this is not as simple as 'Brexit means brexit'!

  10. #35
    International jon1959's Avatar
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    Re: Gina Miller

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    Forget the question on the ballot paper for a moment, as it boils down to this, if you want to be able to trade with whoever you want, you want to control who comes into your country, you dont want free movement of people and you want Parliament to be the sovereign body when it comes to Govt / laws etc - then you have no option than the default position of completely out of the EU - that is your starting point.

    And - seeing as the above is what people voted for - then the only option is we come out completely. The EU wont allow any country to control the free movement of people and the EU will not allow you to strike trade deals with other countries - so that means out of the single market and customs union.

    In my humble opinion if the EU went back to a pre maastright situation where you had to apply to go and work in another EU country etc - and you could be deported from that country if you were a naughty boy - then that may appease most people - but the EU will never go back to that as if anything they want to expand the EU to include Kosovo, Macedonia and the 3 other countries - all of who have massive unemployment problems.
    How do you know that is what people voted for? You started with 'forget what was on the ballot paper', but that is all we can be sure of - how many voted for or against that simple proposition. Then we have 6 months of people from all sides of the argument telling everyone else what was in the heads of tens of millions of people on the day of the vote. I'm sure you're right about some. I doubt you're right about all.

  11. #36

    Re: Gina Miller

    If we go on the basis of "forget the question on the ballot paper" we're getting into territory where, rather than announcing his intention to resign as PM on the morning the referendum result was announced, David Cameron could have said we are going to stay in the EU anyway.

    The only thing that can be deduced from the referendum result is that on a particular day last June, out of those that gave their opinion, more people wanted us to leave the EU than stay in it. Now, I happen to think that there will be days (there probably have been since June 23 as well) when, if such a vote had been taken, more people would have wanted to remain than leave. Similarly, I believe that one of the main reasons as to why the vote went the way it did is that a significant minority of those who voted leave do not like people from another country, but that's by the by - on the day that counted, leave won by not a huge margin, but one that was big enough to not leave any doubt as to who the winner was.

    Therefore, leaping to all sorts of conclusions as to what the result means as far as what those charged with negotiating our way out of the EU should agree to is both pointless and mendacious - there was no mandate given for a hard or soft Brexit (in fact, I'm not sure these terms were even in use at the time of the vote), the vote was that we leave and the terms under which we do so can only be judged when we are told exactly what they are.

  12. #37

    Re: Gina Miller

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    If we go on the basis of "forget the question on the ballot paper" we're getting into territory where, rather than announcing his intention to resign as PM on the morning the referendum result was announced, David Cameron could have said we are going to stay in the EU anyway.

    The only thing that can be deduced from the referendum result is that on a particular day last June, out of those that gave their opinion, more people wanted us to leave the EU than stay in it. Now, I happen to think that there will be days (there probably have been since June 23 as well) when, if such a vote had been taken, more people would have wanted to remain than leave. Similarly, I believe that one of the main reasons as to why the vote went the way it did is that a significant minority of those who voted leave do not like people from another country, but that's by the by - on the day that counted, leave won by not a huge margin, but one that was big enough to not leave any doubt as to who the winner was.

    Therefore, leaping to all sorts of conclusions as to what the result means as far as what those charged with negotiating our way out of the EU should agree to is both pointless and mendacious - there was no mandate given for a hard or soft Brexit (in fact, I'm not sure these terms were even in use at the time of the vote), the vote was that we leave and the terms under which we do so can only be judged when we are told exactly what they are.
    Indeed.
    For me the key issue here is that nobody really knew what the impact would be one way or the other either positive or negative. Even now, nobody in a position of power appears to be able to tell us with any degree of certainty what will happen when Theresa May pushes the button, so how the hell were the British public supposed to make an informed decision?

    Some will have voted based on prejudice
    Some will have voted based on the rhetoric sputed by whichever politician shouted the loudest
    Some will have voted the way their favourite newspaper told them to
    A very small minority will have done any kind of research into the issues and likely impacts.

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