The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

[Colonel Cærdiffi]

It's weird that whenever the subject of Welsh independence is brought forward, how many Welsh people will become impossibly contrary, nitpicking whatever detail they can find to justify to themselves why they should dismiss wholesale the notion of independence.

This nation once fought fierce and proud against its invaders but now, after hundreds of years of being treated like a poor relative in a backwater, we've become so accustomed to subjugation that the prospect of going it alone is too much to even contemplate, like a nationwide collective Stockholm Syndrome.

People are quick to say "Wales could NEVER prosper on its own", as if it's ever prospered under England or ever had the chance to try. We've had our language squashed nearly out of existence, our culture sidelined, stolen from, and repressed.

Now even our own people have been conditioned to believe they are not worthy of controlling their own destiny. Wales could be doing so much better for itself, but we'll never find that out as long as everyone is too scared to poke their heads above the parapet.

If Britain can survive without Europe, then Wales can survive without Britain.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

It's weird that whenever the subject of Welsh independence is brought forward, how many Welsh people will become impossibly contrary, nitpicking whatever detail they can find to justify to themselves why they should dismiss wholesale the notion of independence.

This nation once fought fierce and proud against its invaders but now, after hundreds of years of being treated like a poor relative in a backwater, we've become so accustomed to subjugation that the prospect of going it alone is too much to even contemplate, like a nationwide collective Stockholm Syndrome.

People are quick to say "Wales could NEVER prosper on its own", as if it's ever prospered under England or ever had the chance to try. We've had our language squashed nearly out of existence, our culture sidelined, stolen from, and repressed.

Now even our own people have been conditioned to believe they are not worthy of controlling their own destiny. Wales could be doing so much better for itself, but we'll never find that out as long as everyone is too scared to poke their heads above the parapet.

If Britain can survive without Europe, then Wales can survive without Britain.

Interesting argument. Can Britain survive without Europe? Yes, but as well as it has so far? Nope. Not a chance (in my view anyway).

Unfortunately, having a dig at people for not believing the mantra you provide does nothing to help your cause.

[Colonel Cærdiffi]

Interesting argument. Can Britain survive without Europe? Yes, but as well as it has so far? Nope. Not a chance (in my view anyway).

Unfortunately, having a dig at people for not believing the mantra you provide does nothing to help your cause.

Another indication that the people of Wales are suffering from Stockholm Syndrome is that they take it as a "dig" when you point it out.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Another indication that the people of Wales are suffering from Stockholm Syndrome is that they take it as a "dig" when you point it out.

What would you call it?

[Colonel Cærdiffi]

What would you call it?

The truth.

It always seems to me that whenever the subject of Welsh independence is brought up, people are quick to look for reasons why it wouldn't work rather than look to why it would.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

The truth.

It always seems to me that whenever the subject of Welsh independence is brought up, people are quick to look for reasons why it wouldn't work rather than look to why it would.

Yes, but having a go at people for having that opinion is not going to be successful in changing their minds.

[Colonel Cærdiffi]

Yes, but having a go at people for having that opinion is not going to be successful in changing their minds.

Again, you see it as a "dig" or "having a go", sometimes people need to hear something they might not necessarily like to hear.

Since we're nitpicking, which part specifically do you see as "having a go"?

[blue matt]

Yes, but having a go at people for having that opinion is not going to be successful in changing their minds.

which is a issue most nationalists have, they either try and bully the opinion over or they ridicule the others

neither tend to work that well and thus the nationalist always struggle

[Eric the Half a Bee]

We've had our language squashed nearly out of existence, our culture sidelined, stolen from, and repressed.

Care to elaborate?

[Colonel Cærdiffi]

Care to elaborate?

I have to say Eric, your comments so far in this thread go some way to verifying the first paragraph of my post in which I refer to nitpicking.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

I have to say Eric, your comments so far in this thread go some way to verifying the first paragraph of my post in which I refer to nitpicking.

It's a shame you couldn't answer my simple question.

[Colonel Cærdiffi]

It's a shame you couldn't answer my simple question.

Well I could, Eric, I just wonder if I'd be wasting my time and you'd find something else to nitpick.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Well I could, Eric, I just wonder if I'd be wasting my time and you'd find something else to nitpick.

Go on then. Give me something I couldn't nitpick. Or shut up.

[Colonel Cærdiffi]

Go on then. Give me something I couldn't nitpick. Or shut up.

Eric, there's nothing you couldn't nitpick.

[Penarth Blues]

It's weird that whenever the subject of Welsh independence is brought forward, how many Welsh people will become impossibly contrary, nitpicking whatever detail they can find to justify to themselves why they should dismiss wholesale the notion of independence.

This nation once fought fierce and proud against its invaders but now, after hundreds of years of being treated like a poor relative in a backwater, we've become so accustomed to subjugation that the prospect of going it alone is too much to even contemplate, like a nationwide collective Stockholm Syndrome.

People are quick to say "Wales could NEVER prosper on its own", as if it's ever prospered under England or ever had the chance to try. We've had our language squashed nearly out of existence, our culture sidelined, stolen from, and repressed.

Now even our own people have been conditioned to believe they are not worthy of controlling their own destiny. Wales could be doing so much better for itself, but we'll never find that out as long as everyone is too scared to poke their heads above the parapet.

If Britain can survive without Europe, then Wales can survive without Britain.

I'm sorry but that is impossibly naïve as a view. Money dictates everything and we have no control over that here at all. Whether that is fair or not it is the truth now as a result of centuries of neglect. The other truth is that we're not on the way to anywhere - we're at the end of the route and no-one needs to come here as everything we can offer is offered cheaper or better somewhere else.

The ONLY things we have to offer are space, water, energy, good food, security, a potentially good quality of life, and the rule of law. These are all powerful things but unfortunately England, and London in particular, are more appealing in offering these to people from outside the UK.

To put this into perspective STUTTGART as a city is spending €20BN turning its train station through 90 degrees to make sure it is on a through TGV route rather than at the end of a line - connections are that important to their economy.

If you didn't already live here why would you come? More importantly, what could we sell you that you can't buy cheaper elsewhere?

I think the lack of self-belief here is simply realism that we've been screwed and there is little hope of a way back as an independent nation. On the contrary, I think there is a rising realisation that the UK can't continue to put all its eggs in the London basket and provided we remain part of the UK I think we will remain included in the move towards offering the quality of life that is missing in London. Many major institutions are moving workers out of London to reduce costs and take advantage of the fact that most new business in the digital domain does not rely on geographic location quite so heavily. In fact, if Scotland leaves, we might even get favourable treatment to try and persuade us to stay.

I think we have hope here, but as a nation of 3M people we'd be swallowed up if we tried to go it alone at the moment in my view. You clearly have a very different view but I'd be interested to know why you think we could compete in the world as an independent country based on facts not hope.

[Colonel Cærdiffi]

I'm sorry but that is impossibly naïve as a view. Money dictates everything and we have no control over that here at all. Whether that is fair or not it is the truth now as a result of centuries of neglect. The other truth is that we're not on the way to anywhere - we're at the end of the route and no-one needs to come here as everything we can offer is offered cheaper or better somewhere else.

The ONLY things we have to offer are space, water, energy, good food, security, a potentially good quality of life, and the rule of law. These are all powerful things but unfortunately England, and London in particular, are more appealing in offering these to people from outside the UK.

To put this into perspective STUTTGART as a city is spending €20BN turning its train station through 90 degrees to make sure it is on a through TGV route rather than at the end of a line - connections are that important to their economy.

If you didn't already live here why would you come? More importantly, what could we sell you that you can't buy cheaper elsewhere?

I think the lack of self-belief here is simply realism that we've been screwed and there is little hope of a way back as an independent nation. On the contrary, I think there is a rising realisation that the UK can't continue to put all its eggs in the London basket and provided we remain part of the UK I think we will remain included in the move towards offering the quality of life that is missing in London. Many major institutions are moving workers out of London to reduce costs and take advantage of the fact that most new business in the digital domain does not rely on geographic location quite so heavily. In fact, if Scotland leaves, we might even get favourable treatment to try and persuade us to stay.

I think we have hope here, but as a nation of 3M people we'd be swallowed up if we tried to go it alone at the moment in my view. You clearly have a very different view but I'd be interested to know why you think we could compete in the world as an independent country based on facts not hope.

Because the other option is to just continue as we are; a sickly nation, an afterthought to those in power, collecting the scraps.

How will we ever know what we can achieve as a nation if we never pull ourselves together and leap from the frying pan?

As I said in the post you replied to, we always look for reasons why it wouldn't work, can't we, just once, look for reasons why it could.

[Penarth Blues]

Because the other option is to just continue as we are; a sickly nation, an afterthought to those in power, collecting the scraps.

How will we ever know what we can achieve as a nation if we never pull ourselves together and leap from the frying pan?

As I said in the post you replied to, we always look for reasons why it wouldn't work, can't we, just once, look for reasons why it could.

I agree with your viewpoint about looking for reasons why it would work - I've pointed out advantages that I think we have, and also why I think we're trumped by England in almost all respects for people looking to come North if we decide to become independent.

I've spent a significant portion of my life working with Europeans and I think we have an amazing country, but we can't cut ourselves off from the rest of the world if we become independent so we have to look at what we can offer than no-one else can.

My best suggestion to becoming self-sustaining is to become a really expensive, high end destination where we limit numbers coming into the country to maintain quality of the experience for those here. Unfortunately that would mean most of us could not afford to live here and I'd prefer to stay.

What's your suggestion as to how we could make this work? India has tied up the cheap Maths/IT end of things, I'm not sure what else we can offer that we could export...

[Colonel Cærdiffi]

I agree with your viewpoint about looking for reasons why it would work - I've pointed out advantages that I think we have, and also why I think we're trumped by England in almost all respects for people looking to come North if we decide to become independent.

I've spent a significant portion of my life working with Europeans and I think we have an amazing country, but we can't cut ourselves off from the rest of the world if we become independent so we have to look at what we can offer than no-one else can.

My best suggestion to becoming self-sustaining is to become a really expensive, high end destination where we limit numbers coming into the country to maintain quality of the experience for those here. Unfortunately that would mean most of us could not afford to live here and I'd prefer to stay.

What's your suggestion as to how we could make this work? India has tied up the cheap Maths/IT end of things, I'm not sure what else we can offer that we could export...

I would be hoping for a government that would nationalise energy, transport, communications, (not fully nationalise but maybe in the way Welsh Water or Cardiff Airport are run), investment in infrastructure, get our own businesses to supply and build our roads, rail, buildings etc

Make sure that if someone is capable of working, give them something to do, care for others, improve your community.

Give our youth something meaningful to do with their time rather than wandering the streets at night, looking to entertain themselves with mischief.

Invest in education and the sciences, look to the future even if it means borrowing now.

Instil a sentiment of self-belief, pride and self-esteem in people, get people to care for their surroundings and their communities.

I would even legalise drugs in the same way Portugal has successfully done it. Look at it as a public health issue rather than a criminal one.

Make a bigger deal of our culture and history, encourage tourism. Get our film industry up and running. There's all kinds of things we could be doing as a nation if we got stuck into it rather than continue in this eternal malaise.

[blue matt]

I would be hoping for a government that would nationalise energy, transport, communications, (not fully nationalise but maybe in the way Welsh Water or Cardiff Airport are run), investment in infrastructure, get our own businesses to supply and build our roads, rail, buildings etc

Make sure that if someone is capable of working, give them something to do, care for others, improve your community.

Give our youth something meaningful to do with their time rather than wandering the streets at night, looking to entertain themselves with mischief.

Invest in education and the sciences, look to the future even if it means borrowing now.

Instil a sentiment of self-belief, pride and self-esteem in people, get people to care for their surroundings and their communities.

I would even legalise drugs in the same way Portugal has successfully done it. Look at it as a public health issue rather than a criminal one.

Make a bigger deal of our culture and history, encourage tourism. Get our film industry up and running. There's all kinds of things we could be doing as a nation if we got stuck into it rather than continue in this eternal malaise.

Wales does not need to be independent to do most of them, the pride thing is interesting, even though most Welsh are proud of being Welsh, lets face it, we are a great nation, as i have pointed out, some in Wales love the " hard done by " mentality

[Bluebirdman Of Alcathays]

Wales does not need to be independent to do most of them, the pride thing is interesting, even though most Welsh are proud of being Welsh, lets face it, we are a great nation, as i have pointed out, some in Wales love the " hard done by " mentality

National pride and patriotism is fundamentally a religion and a selective identity we give ourselves to make us feel better. If you think we're a great nation it's cos you want to feel good about yourself, and so that can be used to fool ourselves that things are fine as they are.

Maybe you get this idea that there is a 'hard done by' mentality cos others might not be so patriotic?

Paradoxically, national pride is irrelevant in this instance since it's more about ideas and having the savvy to implement them and better organise our arbitrary area. Other arbitrary areas do this regardless of size.

[blue matt]

Because the other option is to just continue as we are; a sickly nation, an afterthought to those in power, collecting the scraps.

.

this sums up the other sign of the nationalist, the glass 1/2 empty syndrome, always blaming every problem on someone else

I used to be a nationalist, always voted Plaid, then i moved away from Wales and realised, the English dont really hate the Welsh, they dont see them as the poor relative, The Welsh have a " poor old us, we are always hard done by " mentality , that is the issue that needs to be changed then maybe independence will follow

[Colonel Cærdiffi]

The Welsh have a " poor old us, we are always hard done by " mentality

Oooohhh, careful with the bullying now.

[GRUMPYS DEN]

this sums up the other sign of the nationalist, the glass 1/2 empty syndrome, always blaming every problem on someone else

I used to be a nationalist, always voted Plaid, then i moved away from Wales and realised, the English dont really hate the Welsh, they dont see them as the poor relative, The Welsh have a " poor old us, we are always hard done by " mentality , that is the issue that needs to be changed then maybe independence will follow

Will be unpalatable to some but true.Independence though-no thanks!!

[NYCBlue]

It's weird that whenever the subject of Welsh independence is brought forward, how many Welsh people will become impossibly contrary, nitpicking whatever detail they can find to justify to themselves why they should dismiss wholesale the notion of independence.

This nation once fought fierce and proud against its invaders but now, after hundreds of years of being treated like a poor relative in a backwater, we've become so accustomed to subjugation that the prospect of going it alone is too much to even contemplate, like a nationwide collective Stockholm Syndrome.

People are quick to say "Wales could NEVER prosper on its own", as if it's ever prospered under England or ever had the chance to try. We've had our language squashed nearly out of existence, our culture sidelined, stolen from, and repressed.

Now even our own people have been conditioned to believe they are not worthy of controlling their own destiny. Wales could be doing so much better for itself, but we'll never find that out as long as everyone is too scared to poke their heads above the parapet.

If Britain can survive without Europe, then Wales can survive without Britain.

If Wales left Britain and became part of the EU it would do more than survive. All Britain has done is take from Wales. Cardiff has surged as a result of Britain being in the EU, the rest of Wales would be so much better of in (political not geographic )Europe than Britain.

[Colonel Cærdiffi]

If Wales left Britain and became part of the EU it would do more than survive. All Britain has done is take from Wales. Cardiff has surged as a result of Britain being in the EU, the rest of Wales would be so much better of in (political not geographic )Europe than Britain.

Maybe Wales, Scotland and Ireland could form The United Celtic Nations and join Europe together.