Personal pronouns in the workplace

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

No because the UK legal definition of rape is completely outdated to the point where basically only men can be convicted of rape. In UK law rape is defined as penetration by a penis without the other person’s consent.

In my opinion I don’t see the difference between a man forcing his penis into someone, or a woman forcing her fingers or an object into someone. One would be considered rape and the other would be considered sexual assault.

I doubt my parter would be comfortable if she went into the bathroom and bumped into a MtoF who’d been convicted of rape. Likewise if she went in and bumped into a woman who’d been convicted of sexually assaulting someone.

Would you be comfortable going for a piss and knowing the man stood next to you was a convicted gay rapist? Or had been convicted of GBH? Etc. I wouldn’t be personally. But public toilets are just that, public.

In the latest census 0.5% of the respondents said they identified as a different gender to the one they were born with. Let’s say roughly 0.25% of the UK are MtoF.

You’ve created a fake, hyper specific scenario that is extremely unrealistic and in doing so are ignoring the fact women can sexually assault other women.

I don’t think the trans debate is that simple or clear cut but this example you’ve created is akin to saying people convicted of a knife crime 10 years ago shouldn’t be allowed into B+Q because they sell sharp blades.

Good luck in defending that if it comes to court

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

jesus christ! the ignorance in this thread is high.
Do any of you know any transgender people and you are aware that it's not only men that transition.

Yes , woman in her late twenties who is called chloe

She's changed from a woman

Nice person

Don't know anyone who has ever given her hassle

Transphobia definitely exists and maybe always will but most people are open minded these days or alternatively couldn't care less

JK Rowling has made very salient arguments and discussions about these situations , she has recieved death threats and educated university lecturers have been hounded out of their jobs

[Whisperer]

I started a new job just before Christmas. I was "encouraged" to use personal pronouns in my signature. I used he/him but I wonder how I'd be treated if i used the opposite.

Yeah same in the industry I work in, I find it all a bit pathetic if I'm honest, it's the prenouns that jar me. Why do you have to point it out to everyone.
And before anyone starts my nephew is a trans kid so as a family we have first hand experience and it's also painful for some family members.

[ToTaL ITK]

Yes , woman in her late twenties who is called chloe

She's changed from a woman

Nice person

Don't know anyone who has ever given her hassle

Transphobia definitely exists and maybe always will but most people are open minded these days or alternatively couldn't care less

JK Rowling has made very salient arguments and discussions about these situations , she has recieved death threats and educated university lecturers have been hounded out of their jobs

Fair play .Hope all goes well for Chloe
It's a huge decision to transition because of the family and friends pressure. I know 3 that have done it. Every story is different and some of them are heartbreaking.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Fair play .Hope all goes well for Chloe
It's a huge decision to transition because of the family and friends pressure. I know 3 that have done it. Every story is different and some of them are heartbreaking.

Chloe has learned that some pubs and their regulars are not as welcoming as others

I told her pubs are crap full stop but there you go

[Canton Kev]

Good luck in defending that if it comes to court

What?

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

What?

It's OK your honour , my client attacked a woman in the ladies toilets we accept that but she had a right to be there

[Canton Kev]

It's OK your honour , my client attacked a woman in the ladies toilets we accept that but she had a right to be there

What are you babbling on about?

[ToTaL ITK]

.

[Divine Wright]

Ye, the whole transgender person in a toilet can get well hysterical. Some of the fears people bring up on here sound like something you'd read in the Daily Mail regarding immigrants.

[UNDERHILL1927]

Ye, the whole transgender person in a toilet can get well hysterical. Some of the fears people bring up on here sound like something you'd read in the Daily Mail regarding immigrants.

100% trying to deflect the focus so they don’t have to use a brain cell and change the way they think.

[ToTaL ITK]

Ye, the whole transgender person in a toilet can get well hysterical. Some of the fears people bring up on here sound like something you'd read in the Daily Mail regarding immigrants.

I'm starting to wonder if it's that much of a danger or more of a sexual fantasy for some on here

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

I'm starting to wonder if it's that much of a danger or more of a sexual fantasy for some on here

JK Rowling

[+ the native hipster]

I guess this was a reply to my post

you could look at it that way

but

when " they " started playing football, " they " were a girl, and " they " are still physically a girl ( not taking any hormones ), Playing football is a massive plus for " them " in a rather mundane life, so to me, it really does no harm to anyone if " they " play football and it makes " them " happy while not identifing as a boy or girl, it really is no Drama

the trauma of being 'non binary' and having to say you play on a girls team must be horrendous for her, obviously you cant be a 'non binary' team as then you have to let the boys in, the sad part is she believes gender roles are so strict

[Bluebirdman Of Alcathays]

Ye, the whole transgender person in a toilet can get well hysterical. Some of the fears people bring up on here sound like something you'd read in the Daily Mail regarding immigrants.

100% trying to deflect the focus so they don’t have to use a brain cell and change the way they think.

I'm starting to wonder if it's that much of a danger or more of a sexual fantasy for some on here

It's like a tag team of missing the point. It's been said for ages that the main concern is safeguarding women's spaces from predatory males and not transwomen but yeah 100% Some On Here probably don't have a brain etc etc.

[SuperBluebirds91]

Hi thanks for your reply, unfortunately there is and it’s not something that people would be probably be aware about unless you are trans or have a close family member who is trans and experience this stuff regularly. It’s not just one group of people but many. There are groups of people who put incorrect and negative information out there about there which is extremely damaging to trans peoples mental health, safety and even their rights. LGB alliance is just one to mention but there are quite a few in the UK and the US. The groups put things out there and as a result people read things, they believe them. I’ve experienced it for years mate.

[SuperBluebirds91]

Hi there I read your comment so wanted to reply to it with a few things to consider.

First off - people who are transgender are not a threat to women in the toilet/bathroom. If they were, we would know by now because trans people have been using the toilet that they is right for their gender for decades. Yes there are groups of people who kick up a stink about it but where are all these rapes and assaults taking place then?

First off in regards to having the surgery - people do not become a woman or become a man for example when they have gender reassignment surgery. They are already that gender - that’s how they feel already inside. When I was 10 long before I knew what trans was and long before I knew about surgery I already felt I was a boy. I already was. The surgery is to help a persons body realign with how they are feeling inside because not having surgery can cause a lot of mental distress. Many trans people don’t have surgery and never will for many reasons - health or just that they don’t feel it’s necessary. That doesn’t mean they are completely comfortable but they’ve made the decision not to. So basically body parts are just physical parts and they are irrelevant to your gender (again only something that your will be really aware of if you are transgender). Yes most men have penis and most woman have a vagina but this is t the case for trans people who do make up quite a large number of people worldwide.

The second thing I wanted to mention is that just because someone has a penis it doesn’t mean they are going to expose themselves or do something untoward to someone else.

People who are trans are of no more risk than anyone else. I don’t personally know the lady but should is no more of a threat to your daughter than any other women who come into that pub. I would imagine she is very anxious about going into the toilet. Could you imagine being watched like a hawk - I mean if someone was going to commit a crime it’s hardly going to happen in a pub where big brother is watching you. She will go into the toilet in the cubicle, go for a pee or whatever, do make up spray abit of perfume and leave. The trans women is at risk of assault if she goes into either toilet - I would imagine she’s probably scared underneath even if she doesn’t show it.

Just out of interest what does your daughter think about it? If she has listened to a few people in the pub gossiping about it I would imagine she now has the view that this women is dangerous. Which is sad really.

Another thing to mention is that surgery is really no one’s business. Ok I know it’s probably very intriguing to know and fair enough, if she has gone around telling everyone that’s fine but to me it sounds like this person has obviously mentioned it to a couple of people privately and suddenly the whole pub is chatting about it. It’s an extremely personal thing mate. Imagine if you had to have surgery on your private parts - would you be happy with the entire pub chatting about it?

I understand there’s been a load of nonsense kicked up in the media about trans people posing a threat to women in the toilets or others people pretending to be a women (which should be noted is completely different anyway) but please consider that while yes your daughter should always be wary of safety risks anywhere she goes and it’s important she is safe - there is no threat from trans people (no more than any other group of people).

Do you actually know this lady? Have you spoken to her and got to know her? You might be surprised to find out she is just like any other person trying to navigate their way through life.

I’m not sure why she would have been told not to use the women’s toilet and who by?

I hope the above helps your worries and I hope my answers have come across respectful etc. I know many trans people (being trans myself).

[jon1959]

Thanks for your posts SuperBluebirds91. They have really added to this thread, and to my own understanding.

[SuperBluebirds91]

.

[SuperBluebirds91]

Sorry Bluebirdman of Alcathays- I replied to you post this morning but forgot to show whoI was replying too.my reply is the shorter one just above regarding anti trans groups etc from this morning. (post #91)

[SuperBluebirds91]

Apologies to dembethewarrior post #73. For some reason I replied to your post but it didn’t copy you into it so not sure what I did wrong. Anyway I have replied to your post this morning see a few posts above this one regarding the trans women in the pub. Hope that helps. My post above is 92#

[dembethewarrior]

Appreciate your reply.

We've seen your point of view in things which I appreciate you putting across, it's very informative.

On the flip side I think other people's opinions also need to be considered.


People aren't scared of being attacked, that was a different poster and not my view whatever, but teenage girls are constantly changing and feel self conscious of their bodies. It's uncomfortable to have to be in the toilet at the same time, shouldn't that also come into consideration? Or be we just have to listen and follow one opinion?

[UNDERHILL1927]

Appreciate your reply.

We've seen your point of view in things which I appreciate you putting across, it's very informative.

On the flip side I think other people's opinions also need to be considered.


People aren't scared of being attacked, that was a different poster and not my view whatever, but teenage girls are constantly changing and feel self conscious of their bodies. It's uncomfortable to have to be in the toilet at the same time, shouldn't that also come into consideration? Or be we just have to listen and follow one opinion?

I don’t think anyone doesn’t see your point mate. The problem is when people detract from the main point, which is trans rights, and their only argument is a small amount of “what ifs” and extreme situations

[dembethewarrior]

If like to add I'm in discussion mode here not trying to argue. It's nice that we're getting grown up talk with different types of people involved

[SuperBluebirds91]

Appreciate your reply.

We've seen your point of view in things which I appreciate you putting across, it's very informative.

On the flip side I think other people's opinions also need to be considered.


People aren't scared of being attacked, that was a different poster and not my view whatever, but teenage girls are constantly changing and feel self conscious of their bodies. It's uncomfortable to have to be in the toilet at the same time, shouldn't that also come into consideration? Or be we just have to listen and follow one opinion?

Thanks for your reply and of course everyone should be listened to. I appreciate you reading my comments. Don’t forget when I make comments it is only my point of view just like it is yours. Others may disagree on both sides. Some trans people may disagree with what I say but I don’t speak for everyone. I can only say it from my own experience. It should be noted thatI know many trans people but I obviously know many who aren’t aswell…..quite a few more

Apologies if I misinterpreted your post about people being attacked etc. I understand about youngsters being self conscious and I would imagine that many teens are uncomfortable about their bodies in the presence of anyone. No one wants to make people feel uncomfortable but it’s just sad that people do feel this way, and in this case a trans women because that is all that person is….a woman who despite having been born with body parts that don’t align with who they are, they themselves would feel extremely self conscious in any situation and would probably be a person that is likely to be very sensitive and respectful towards others in that situation. What’s I’m trying to say is a trans woman would likely be someone who is an expert on how it feels to be self conscious and who know how to respect others. Obviously that may not take away how your daughter or others may feel so I think it’s probably important for these discussions to continue and more awareness in places such as schools. When I was a teen I played for a girls football team. I was extremely self conscious about the other girls looking at my body in the changing room - It wouldn’t matter who it was, I would self conscious fullstop mate. Of course this may have not have helped as I was trans but it appeared many others on the team were the same.

It’s never about me saying my views are the only ones that are correct, but personally I do think so many have the wrong perception of a trans woman. It’s not something that can be resolved on a football forum and needs further discussion but I appreciate you listening and hoping it has helped alleviate some worries even if you still have concerns mate.