View Full Version : The Greek referendum
I don't fully understand what they are voting for, but am I right in thinking that it should be an overwhelming yes vote?
Who knows ? The Greek Government want a No vote but usually in the EU they keep having referendums until they get the answer they want then stop. It's called democracy in Brussels.
The Greek government seems to think a no vote will strengthen their hand despite their creditors saying no further deals are possible. I think it will be a yes vote.
Jimmy Jimmy
05-07-15, 13:21
if they vote Yes - the Greek PM will resign - or so he has said.
A Yes vote means that they have accepted the terms and conditions that the EU offered them.
As per the Greeks seem to making a joke of it - if the Greek PM resigns - there will be an election - and he may well stand again - and will probably win.
A No vote - and they will be out.
The Greek PM said he had a solution to end austerity - it looks like he hasnt - and never did have. Having the referendum like this is so he can try and walk away from it all.
Germans and France are the most exposed to the Greek debt , I think the UK is in for about 8billion - interesting times
Cathaze Blue
05-07-15, 17:36
Looks like a no vote
good luck to 'em
saganspirit
05-07-15, 17:47
Back to the drachma??
Back to the drachma??I reckon so. Their creditors aren't going to carry on lending without reform. This will lead to a grexit. The Greek central bank will collapse tomorrow
Expect pensions to take a battering tomorrow
saganspirit
05-07-15, 19:39
I feel a bit torn on this - on the one hand I'm pleased that they've shown some courage to the faceless Brussels bureaucrats but I also realise that they do need to wake up to the fact that their absurdly lop-sided public sector and pathological aversion to income tax will have to change drastically!
I feel a bit torn on this - on the one hand I'm pleased that they've shown some courage to the faceless Brussels bureaucrats but I also realise that they do need to wake up to the fact that their absurdly lop-sided public sector and pathological aversion to income tax will have to change drastically!It will dawn on them when the state has no money to pay salaries or pensions over the next few weeks. The tap will have been turned off.
Cardiff Irish
05-07-15, 20:30
What happens next then ? will it affect us in the UK massively?
Eric Cartman
05-07-15, 21:12
I feel a bit torn on this - on the one hand I'm pleased that they've shown some courage to the faceless Brussels bureaucrats but I also realise that they do need to wake up to the fact that their absurdly lop-sided public sector and pathological aversion to income tax will have to change drastically!Ironically the public sector employees and probably the only ones paying the correct amount of income tax.
I remember chatting to a bar owner in Greece in about 2005.
He was adamant that Greece was on the road to ruin as a result of having joined the Euro.
I also remember him being adamant that Greece would leave the EU again within 10 years.
blueslippers
05-07-15, 21:23
I am Pro Europe and Pro European Union, but I say Well done Greece tonight!!!!
They've sent a resounding F U to the big banking institutions, self interests and pushers of Austerity who tell us what we should do while filling up their trough more and more!
Greece is on the bones of its Arse. It needs economic stimulus, not a slow economic death!!
Well done Greece....The birthplace of democracy has sent out a strong, democratic message to the rest of Europe!!!
alfie sherwood
05-07-15, 21:44
An uplifting night for people everywhere who are against the hypocritical establishment machine.
There is only so long that the super wealthy powerful elite can punish ordinary people with austerity before they fight back. And let's make no bones about it, austerity is a punishment meted out against people who didn't cause the problem.
An uplifting night for people everywhere who are against the hypocritical establishment machine.Interesting take on things. Who do you think is responsible for the Greek sovereign debt crisis? The Greek government for spending, the Greek people for electing the Greek government, or someone else.
Cardiff Irish
06-07-15, 07:37
I can say one thing. The stock exchanges of the world today will be like the end for 'trading places'
Greece will probably be on sale for a dollar by end of day.
the other bob wilson
06-07-15, 08:53
An uplifting night for people everywhere who are against the hypocritical establishment machine.
There is only so long that the super wealthy powerful elite can punish ordinary people with austerity before they fight back. And let's make no bones about it, austerity is a punishment meted out against people who didn't cause the problem. http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/03/us-eurozone-greece -imf-idUSKCN0PD20120150703 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/03/us-eurozone-greece-imf-idUSKCN0PD20120150703)
An uplifting night for people everywhere who are against the hypocritical establishment machine.
There is only so long that the super wealthy powerful elite can punish ordinary people with austerity before they fight back. And let's make no bones about it, austerity is a punishment meted out against people who didn't cause the problem.
Interesting take on things. Who do you think is responsible for the Greek sovereign debt crisis? The Greek government for spending, the Greek people for electing the Greek government, or someone else.Maybe I've read that wrong but it doesn't say who is responsible for Greece running up its debt.
alfie sherwood
06-07-15, 09:19
An uplifting night for people everywhere who are against the hypocritical establishment machine.
There is only so long that the super wealthy powerful elite can punish ordinary people with austerity before they fight back. And let's make no bones about it, austerity is a punishment meted out against people who didn't cause the problem. There has got be a better way than relentless struggle, especially given they are part of the (still) super wealthy EU 'club.'
At risk of over simplifying things, this sounds a lot like me borrowing £100 of one of my mates, then failing to pay it back, then asking my mate for some more money (basically chuck good money after bad) but when he says yes, but only if I pack in the fags, I tell him to ferk off and get hailed as a hero for telling the big bully to do one.
Who's the bad guy here, me or my mate?
saganspirit
06-07-15, 10:04
An uplifting night for people everywhere who are against the hypocritical establishment machine.
There is only so long that the super wealthy powerful elite can punish ordinary people with austerity before they fight back. And let's make no bones about it, austerity is a punishment meted out against people who didn't cause the problem.
Interesting take on things. Who do you think is responsible for the Greek sovereign debt crisis? The Greek government for spending, the Greek people for electing the Greek government, or someone else.It's a valid point about 50's Germany but the difference in 2015 is that Ireland appear to have adhered to their proposals (I'm not saying that they're fair) and if you write off debt for one country it will cause the others to demand the same.
alfie sherwood
06-07-15, 10:23
At risk of over simplifying things, this sounds a lot like me borrowing £100 of one of my mates, then failing to pay it back, then asking my mate for some more money (basically chuck good money after bad) but when he says yes, but only if I pack in the fags, I tell him to ferk off and get hailed as a hero for telling the big bully to do one.When the inevitable happened, rather than genuinely helping quirky old friend A out of the mess, 'friend' B insisted on terms that would see friend A and his family destitute for a generation.
alfie sherwood
06-07-15, 10:33
An uplifting night for people everywhere who are against the hypocritical establishment machine.
There is only so long that the super wealthy powerful elite can punish ordinary people with austerity before they fight back. And let's make no bones about it, austerity is a punishment meted out against people who didn't cause the problem.
Interesting take on things. Who do you think is responsible for the Greek sovereign debt crisis? The Greek government for spending, the Greek people for electing the Greek government, or someone else.
The Greek people absolutely have to change their laissez faire attitude towards taxation, likewise the historic black market economy that has always flourished there but the 'punishment' via severe austerity will ensure that the Greeks never get back on their feet. There was always going to be 'collateral' damage along the way. It is that damage that has seen the ordinary hard working people of countries such as Greece, Ireland, Spain and Portugal suffer.
archibald leitch
06-07-15, 10:42
At risk of over simplifying things, this sounds a lot like me borrowing £100 of one of my mates, then failing to pay it back, then asking my mate for some more money (basically chuck good money after bad) but when he says yes, but only if I pack in the fags, I tell him to ferk off and get hailed as a hero for telling the big bully to do one.Yet again the history of democracy is being written on the streets of Athens.
An uplifting night for people everywhere who are against the hypocritical establishment machine.
There is only so long that the super wealthy powerful elite can punish ordinary people with austerity before they fight back. And let's make no bones about it, austerity is a punishment meted out against people who didn't cause the problem.
Interesting take on things. Who do you think is responsible for the Greek sovereign debt crisis? The Greek government for spending, the Greek people for electing the Greek government, or someone else.austerity doesn't have to mean cutting spending if you raise taxes. The problem is Greece has a culture of not paying taxes and it is this culture that they need to overcome. It is all well and good expecting to retire on handsome pensions at 55, but someone has to pay for it. The Greeks would prefer non repayable loans from the EU/IMC/ECB to finance it rather than tax their own people. That is about to change as they have defaulted and as someone who has worked the markets I know full well that once that happens lenders give you a wide berth.
At risk of over simplifying things, this sounds a lot like me borrowing £100 of one of my mates, then failing to pay it back, then asking my mate for some more money (basically chuck good money after bad) but when he says yes, but only if I pack in the fags, I tell him to ferk off and get hailed as a hero for telling the big bully to do one.
Who's the bad guy here, me or my mate?Its messy but the Greeks have to take the lions share of the blame here.
the other bob wilson
06-07-15, 12:59
An uplifting night for people everywhere who are against the hypocritical establishment machine.
There is only so long that the super wealthy powerful elite can punish ordinary people with austerity before they fight back. And let's make no bones about it, austerity is a punishment meted out against people who didn't cause the problem.
Interesting take on things. Who do you think is responsible for the Greek sovereign debt crisis? The Greek government for spending, the Greek people for electing the Greek government, or someone else.
The IMF doesn't seem to believe that the blame for the current situation rests wholly with the Greeks.I agree with Alfie to a large degree and although I accept that my bias means that, perhaps, I'm being bit paranoid here, it does occur to me from time to time that the attitude of Merkel and co might be a little different if the Greek government was of a different political persuasion.
the Greeks owe the Germans £60bn. The GReeks were happy to drive around in BMWs, Porsches and Mercedes when they were borrowing credit from Germany but now the Germans want it repaid. What hasn't helped is the Greek press (and some in Syriza) likening Merkel to Hitler and the Germans to Nazis. The Germans are probably the most socially aware of all EU nations and whilst they are happy to pay significant sums in to the EU coffers to make it work, they also want states such as Greece to act with a degree of responsibility. The Greeks voted for a party which put 60% in to the public sector - that is madness and anyone can see that is just a recipe for disaster.
If Greece is to survive then they need to appreciate that they do have to pay tax and that it is not an optional extra that you can opt in or out.
alfie sherwood
06-07-15, 14:04
An uplifting night for people everywhere who are against the hypocritical establishment machine.
There is only so long that the super wealthy powerful elite can punish ordinary people with austerity before they fight back. And let's make no bones about it, austerity is a punishment meted out against people who didn't cause the problem.
Interesting take on things. Who do you think is responsible for the Greek sovereign debt crisis? The Greek government for spending, the Greek people for electing the Greek government, or someone else.
The IMF doesn't seem to believe that the blame for the current situation rests wholly with the Greeks.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/03/us-eurozone-greece -imf-idUSKCN0PD20120150703 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/03/us-eurozone-greece-imf-idUSKCN0PD20120150703)I'm not a socialist myself but I do think that global capital does what it always does, that is to make sure any fledgling socialist/progressive government has very little chance of succeeding. The markets are terrified of any threat to their bloated empires.
An uplifting night for people everywhere who are against the hypocritical establishment machine.
There is only so long that the super wealthy powerful elite can punish ordinary people with austerity before they fight back. And let's make no bones about it, austerity is a punishment meted out against people who didn't cause the problem.
Interesting take on things. Who do you think is responsible for the Greek sovereign debt crisis? The Greek government for spending, the Greek people for electing the Greek government, or someone else.
The IMF doesn't seem to believe that the blame for the current situation rests wholly with the Greeks.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/03/us-eurozone-greece -imf-idUSKCN0PD20120150703 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/03/us-eurozone-greece-imf-idUSKCN0PD20120150703)
Maybe I've read that wrong but it doesn't say who is responsible for Greece running up its debt.In the case of Greece it is easy to say that they will protect the pensions, the welfare, the healthcare system but the reality is without money none of that will happen. I can't see how Syriza are going to keep their promises because they just don't have the money to honour their obligations.
alfie sherwood
06-07-15, 15:40
An uplifting night for people everywhere who are against the hypocritical establishment machine.
There is only so long that the super wealthy powerful elite can punish ordinary people with austerity before they fight back. And let's make no bones about it, austerity is a punishment meted out against people who didn't cause the problem.
Interesting take on things. Who do you think is responsible for the Greek sovereign debt crisis? The Greek government for spending, the Greek people for electing the Greek government, or someone else.
The IMF doesn't seem to believe that the blame for the current situation rests wholly with the Greeks.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/03/us-eurozone-greece -imf-idUSKCN0PD20120150703 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/03/us-eurozone-greece-imf-idUSKCN0PD20120150703)
Maybe I've read that wrong but it doesn't say who is responsible for Greece running up its debt.
That's the reason why I used the word "current". The article shows that the Greek government have seized on the report as a kind of vindication despite the fact that my understanding is that the report has been pretty scathing about them as well.To be fair to Syriza - who have been a breath of fresh - they have been careful to qualify their promises. The reality is that regardless of what happens next in this unfolding saga, it was always going to be a huge challenge for the Greek people in the coming years. I'm just pleased, in the first instance, that they've registered their disapproval at the EU's proposed 'punishment.'
You'll be right in thinking that the rest of Europe will end up paying the money that the Greeks have decided they want to pay back at £1 per week, the banks will not lose out in the long term, from the rebellious side of me I'm glad the Greeks have fked them off but, the reality maybe, is that the Greeks (their top boys)took money from an organistion who were irresponsible in lending money to a country who couldn't afford the pay what was already owed, the Greeks have been fked over deliberately IMO, but were only too willing to assist by refusing to live within their means, I'm probably wrong but, it is my understanding that, Greece never met the financial requirement to join the EU but were railroaded in by the Germans at the time.
Sodding Germans still owe us all big time!! http://www.ccmb.co.uk/images/smiley_icons/thumbup.gif
archibald leitch
06-07-15, 19:47
At risk of over simplifying things, this sounds a lot like me borrowing £100 of one of my mates, then failing to pay it back, then asking my mate for some more money (basically chuck good money after bad) but when he says yes, but only if I pack in the fags, I tell him to ferk off and get hailed as a hero for telling the big bully to do one.
Who's the bad guy here, me or my mate?
Whist money is obviously an issue, it is not THE issue. The Greeks are willing to pay back the money and are willing to come to some sort of managable repayment arrangement. What is pissing them off though is the interfering with Greek democracy and telling them how to run their country. The creditors have no concern in what is best for the people of Greece, Only what is in the interests of global capital. I am well aware you think everything is about money, but i was not explaining what you think, i was explaining why people in Greece voted no.
saganspirit
06-07-15, 19:55
This thread has been very civilised so far...
archibald leitch
06-07-15, 20:00
This thread has been very civilised so far...Its all greek to me
You reckon you know why 3.6m Greeks voted no?
The Greeks need a little help but they really do need to take a long guard look at the way they go about things.
The Greeks need a little help but they really do need to take a long guard look at the way they go about things.Before they're made into escaped goats I assume
archibald leitch
06-07-15, 21:33
You reckon you know why 3.6m Greeks voted no? Personally i have drawn my conculsions based on why the referrendum was called and what the no campaign was based on.
The Greeks need a little help but they really do need to take a long guard look at the way they go about things.
Before they're made into escaped goats I assumeNo, that's not what I meant at all. If they want a new deal with Europe they need to makes changes if they want their debt partly written off.
Archie
The underlying question was quite straightforward.
Do you want the government to accept the terms of the bailout?
The Greek people said no. That's all fine and well. They just need to find the money to cover the current government deficit as the current creditors aren't going to lend them any more. If they can't find that money then salaries don't get paid, the healthcare system collapses along with pretty much the entire economy. Where do you think the Greeks will find the extra money?
archibald leitch
07-07-15, 07:30
ArchieArrange a repayment programme by all means but let them run their country. If my bank manager told me you can borrow money but you have to make sandwiches for work and stop going to football I would also tell him to **** off. I may well make that decision myself but it is not appropriate for the bank to mske that decision for me as a precondition of the loan.
The lenders aren't making the decision. The lenders are saying they will only lend if Greece accepts the terms of the lending.
Do you think your bank would lend to you if you didn't accept the terms?
archibald leitch
07-07-15, 08:59
The lenders aren't making the decision. The lenders are saying they will only lend if Greece accepts the terms of the lending.The only terms my bank has ever asked me to comply with was making repayment, not how to run my household. If I had problems repaying I would expect my bank to work with me and come up with new repayment plan, not bankrupt me. I am no use to them as a customer if I am destitute. . No one will gain from Greece going bust, it is in everyone's interest to get them back on track rather than throwing them to the wolves. It makes no business sense to just abandon them.
the bank doesn't make someone bankrupt Archie. Bankruptcy is when a legal person cannot pay their liabilities on time and the courts consider that situation isn't going to change any time soon.
The EU/ECB/IMF have not abandoned Greece, they have tried to resolve this and have done for the past 5 years but have said that Athens must cut its cloth accordingly. For far too long the government was spending far more than they were collecting in tax and that - as we can know see - is unsustainable. You cannot give the very generous pensions at 55 when people are living to 80 and beyond, you cannot have 60% of the workforce in the public sector, you cannot have a Northern European style healthcare system and education system if you don't collect taxes to pay for it. The Greek problem is systemic and all the creditors have been saying is that the system needs resolving and you do that by having a long term plan to spend much more sensibly. The problem is the Greeks don't want to give up all that they have but they also don't want to pay taxes to pay for it either.
So I will ask again, what do you propose Syriza does? The bond markets have already started offering rates on the drachma with 2 year lending at 17% and 10 year lending at nearly 50%. The Greeks will find few will lend to them after this and even then it will be at eye watering rates as they are now seen as a busted flush. They will pay even more for their finance than they are doing now.
it would appear that based on this (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33473779) BBC article, it would appear as if the hard left socialist government of Syriza are having to face up to the economic reality that Greece faces. Whilst socialist is a noble ideal that is worthy of support, what we are seeing in Greece is tacit acceptance that you cannot adhere to socialist principles and run a successful economy. This is a re-run on what happened in Romania in 1980. The consequence of taking such a hardline approach to a political ideology is that ultimately the people suffer at the hands of politicians. It would appear that the Greek government are seeking support of the Greek parliament to reduce spending, reduce benefits and privatise state owned assets.
all in all it has been a huge climb down from those lofty socialist ideals but it is no wonder when the cold hard facts are presented in front of you. Tsipras has made the correct decision to follow his head rather than his heart.
Eric Cartman
10-07-15, 20:16
it would appear that based on this (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33473779) BBC article, it would appear as if the hard left socialist government of Syriza are having to face up to the economic reality that Greece faces. Whilst socialist is a noble ideal that is worthy of support, what we are seeing in Greece is tacit acceptance that you cannot adhere to socialist principles and run a successful economy. This is a re-run on what happened in Romania in 1980. The consequence of taking such a hardline approach to a political ideology is that ultimately the people suffer at the hands of politicians. It would appear that the Greek government are seeking support of the Greek parliament to reduce spending, reduce benefits and privatise state owned assets.Who are you talking to?
archibald leitch
11-07-15, 07:48
it would appear that based on this (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33473779) BBC article, it would appear as if the hard left socialist government of Syriza are having to face up to the economic reality that Greece faces. Whilst socialist is a noble ideal that is worthy of support, what we are seeing in Greece is tacit acceptance that you cannot adhere to socialist principles and run a successful economy. This is a re-run on what happened in Romania in 1980. The consequence of taking such a hardline approach to a political ideology is that ultimately the people suffer at the hands of politicians. It would appear that the Greek government are seeking support of the Greek parliament to reduce spending, reduce benefits and privatise state owned assets.That is an interesting spin you have put on that article. What it actually says is that capitalism is predatory and will do everything it can to strangle any atempts at socilism and that capitlism serves the needs of capital, not the needs of people.
You claim I've put spin on that article yet syriza are clearly compromising their socialist principles out of economic necessity.
If socialist isn't strong enough to counter capitalism, then it's clear the better model is capitalism
archibald leitch
11-07-15, 09:26
You claim I've put spin on that article yet syriza are clearly compromising their socialist principles out of economic necessity.I did not say socialism is not strong, but Greece is clearly a member of a capitalist club so will never be able to be truly socialist while it stays inside that club. When surrounded by capitalist bullies who are threatening to kill you, sometimes you have to compromise.
Romania was within the socialist block and seriously messed up in 1980. Socialism doesn't work as Greece are finding out. Better to turn your back on socialism and embrace the capitalist free market philosophy. Capitalism is stronger, better, more resilient whereas socialism is an ideal that doesn't really hold up to economic reality. All the evidence corroborates my claim.
archibald leitch
11-07-15, 09:56
Romania was within the socialist block and seriously messed up in 1980. Socialism doesn't work as Greece are finding out. Better to turn your back on socialism and embrace the capitalist free market philosophy. Capitalism is stronger, better, more resilient whereas socialism is an ideal that doesn't really hold up to economic reality. All the evidence corroborates my claim.The overwhelming evidence is that capitalism is not fit for purpose, boom and bust is the natural way of capitalism, dog eat dog is the way of capitalism, profit before people is the way of capitalism, inequality is the way of capitalism. The recent financial crisis was caused by capitalism, not socialism. In fact every financial crisis has been casued by capitalism.
Whatever you say, you are so objective in your analysis. What about Romania's bankruptcy in 1980?
What you describe are economic cycles, recession and growth and recession and growth. This happens in capitalism and socialism. I'm not sure why you think it doesn't.
What about the stock market turmoil in communist China happening today?
archibald leitch
11-07-15, 10:12
Whatever you say, you are so objective in your analysis. What about Romania's bankruptcy in 1980?As a result of austerity even basic necessities, such as food, heating, electricity and medical attention were rationed and the infrastructure was left decaying. Due to the austerity, by 1983, the standard of living fell by 19-40 percent, according to IMF's own figures.
Romania's economic problems were caused by its output being sold overseas so the country could get its hands on foreign currency needed to fund its armed forces. The people go hungry to build a strong army. Just like north Korea. Socialism sounds great.
Interesting that you accept socialist romania undertook austerity. Perhaps you will now accept austerity isn't an ideology.
As for the western capital inflows, they were loans based on political considerations, they were most certainly not western companies investing in Romania.
archibald leitch
11-07-15, 10:25
Romania's economic problems were caused by its output being sold overseas so the country could get its hands on foreign currency needed to fund its armed forces. The people go hungry to build a strong army. Just like north Korea. Socialism sounds great.Applying austerity is an idological decision, that is not an opinion, it is a solid gold fact. At no time have i ever said it is a strictly capitalist idology, so not sure what your point is.
You clearly said capitalist institutions when it was no such thing. The loans to romania were by governments based on political expediency.
Im glad you now accept austerity isn't capitalist in nature, nor is it right wing in nature and that in itself it's just a goal to manage public spending.
Socialist romania was a basket case. Energy rationing, food rationing, babies dying in hospitals, unbearable winters due to lack of fuel, no hot water, falling wages, high inflation.
All clearly demonstrate socialist economies cannot provide the basic needs of the people. It's no wonder romania turned to the liberal free market economic model. Proof once again that ultimately the people reject socialism and hard left philosophies.
archibald leitch
11-07-15, 11:41
You clearly said capitalist institutions when it was no such thing. The loans to romania were by governments based on political expediency.Is attacking socilism the only way you can come up with to defend capitalism? If so, it does not say a lot for capitalism. Given that i am not a socialist and have never promoted socialism on here, i am not sure what point you are trying to make.
1. If you meant government why not just say governments. You called it wrong and are now backtracking.
2. You have spent the past 5 years arguing the cuts (austerity) are a Tory ideological attack on public services. Now you seem to accept that austerity is not left or right, capitalist or socialist, but governments just balancing the books. Will you accept that the cuts implemented bu the conservatives is about balancing the books rather than any political ideology?
3. I can't believe you of all people just wrote that. Words fail me.
4. If I want to defend capitalism I would do so. I've argued elsewhere that capitalism doesn't really exist any more so I'm not sure why you've concluded what you have. However this was about me criticising the very clear and obvious shortcoming in socialism and every other hard left economic and political ideology. Finally i'm also unsure why you claim you aren't a socialist as you spend all of your tine defending socialist principles. But it's good to see you accept socialism failed and made life a living he'll for Romanians. Better we confinr that and similar economic and political ideology to the dustbin of history
archibald leitch
11-07-15, 12:07
1. If you meant government why not just say governments. You called it wrong and are now backtracking.
How exactly am I back tracking? I used the word institutions because I meant institutions. It was not just governments, it was loan sharks like the IMF and so on as well. Institutions covers a multitude of sins
2. You have spent the past 5 years arguing the cuts (austerity) are a Tory ideological attack on public services. Now you seem to accept that austerity is not left or right, capitalist or socialist, but governments just balancing the books. Will you accept that the cuts implemented bu the conservatives is about balancing the books rather than any political ideology?
I have spent the last five years arguing against austerity. Please quote where I have said it is Tory austerity I have been arguing against. Labour have openly said they would be implementing austerity as well, I would have been equally vociferous if they were doing it. In fact I went on strike over cuts when they were in power.Again please quote where I have said that socialism has failed? If you can't, do us a favour and stop trying to deny that you are constantly making up shit I have not said.
You accepted romania was a basket case. That wasn't socialist principles, that was socialism in practice. Socialism in practice clearly can't provide for the people and leads to worsening quality of life. Unless of course you think romania was a success and that people want food shortages etc
archibald leitch
11-07-15, 12:38
You accepted romania was a basket case.
Really? Then ****ing quote me.
That wasn't socialist principles, that was socialism in practice. I note you have singularly failed to defend capitalism and continue to deflect the argument in irrelevant directions. If you want to go down the road of the failure of one state means the failure of an entire ideology, you have to accept that the failure of a state that is a member of the European union demonstrates that capitalism is a failed ideology.
Are you saying romania wasn't a basket case? Children dying in hospitals, food shortages, no heating, poor infrastructure, falling wages, high inflation, plummeting living standards - all as a result of socialism.
It is amazing that you say the financial crash was the result of capitalism but romania crashing wasn't the result of socialism. You are anything but consistent. If you apply your logic consistently (and I appreciate it's beyond you) either romania failed as a result of socialism or the financial crash was nothing to do with capitalism.
I will just repeat what you do here but just turn it on its head.
The failure of Greece is not a failure of the capitalist system, it's a failure a trying to implement socialism into a working capitalist system and shows that socialism is left trailing in the wake of capitalism. The Greeks have adopted socialism and are poor whereas the rest of the eu have adopted capitalism and are not poor.
I've already pointed out the benefits of capitalism, it is more productive and provides better living standards for the population overall.
archibald leitch
11-07-15, 13:35
Are you saying romania wasn't a basket case? Children dying in hospitals, food shortages, no heating, poor infrastructure, falling wages, high inflation, plummeting living standards - all as a result of socialism.
Have I used the term Basket case? Have I said Romania was a basket case or was not a basket case? If not, please stop making out I have.
The failure of Romania was down to being run by a totalitarian megalomaniac by the name of Nicolae CeauČescu. He may have called himself a communist but there was very little in the way he ran the country that reflected socialist principles.
Why are we talking about socialism though? I have not been promoting it.
It is amazing that you say the financial crash was the result of capitalism but romania crashing wasn't the result of socialism. You are anything but consistent. If you apply your logic consistently (and I appreciate it's beyond you) either romania failed as a result of socialism or the financial crash was nothing to do with capitalism. No you have not and no it does not. Capitalism = inequality.
You are saying that in the case of the financial system crashing it was a result of the economic system but when romania crashed it was a result of the political system. You can't have it both ways, either the political system is to blame or the economic system is to blame. In other words, if a totalitarian government was responsible for romania then democracy was responsible for the financial crash. Likewise if capitalism was responsible for the financial crash then socialism was responsible for the romania crash. Once again you are inconsistent in your approach - a common trait in your analysis.
Greece has had a left wing government for years and almost 60% worked in the public sector with most industry being state owned - that's as socialist as you're going to get so don't try and suggest Greece and left wing only happened since syriza. It's been socialist for years.
Capitalism isn't equality archie because we aren't all equal. Capitalism is about equal opportunity
archibald leitch
11-07-15, 16:57
You are saying that in the case of the financial system crashing it was a result of the economic system but when romania crashed it was a result of the political system.
If I said that, should be easy for you to quote me then .........
You can't have it both ways, either the political system is to blame or the economic system is to blame. In other words, if a totalitarian government was responsible for romania then democracy was responsible for the financial crash. Likewise if capitalism was responsible for the financial crash then socialism was responsible for the romania crash. Once again you are inconsistent in your approach - a common trait in your analysis.
Once again you have misquoted meIs this a joke? You cant seriously believe this can you?
1. You've spent the past five years telling us the financial crash was the result of failings in capitalism - the economic system in use. You then said the romania collapse was the result of a totalitarian regime - a political system. Are you now denying you've made these two contradictory comments?
2. I've not misquoted you at all. You've laid the blame on the financial crash at the door of capitalism and you have stated quite clearly that the romania collapse was the result of a totalitarian regime.
3. It's facing financial ruin because for years it has spent more than it has earnt. The Greek people alone are responsible for the debt they built up.
4. Of course I'm serious.
archibald leitch
11-07-15, 17:12
1. You've spent the past five years telling us the financial crash was the result of failings in capitalism - the economic system in use. You then said the romania collapse was the result of a totalitarian regime - a political system. Are you now denying you've made these two contradictory comments?QUOTE ME THEN!
Well the totalitarian quote is in this thread and if you are seriously saying you've never once said capitalism is responsible for the financial crash then you are quite clearly trolling.
archibald leitch
11-07-15, 17:28
Well the totalitarian quote is in this thread and if you are seriously saying you've never once said capitalism is responsible for the financial crash then you are quite clearly trolling.
You are right, i have said the crash was down to capitalism. It would be very difficult for it to be down to anything else, cos the financial system of the entire world is based oin capitalism.Why is socialism to be blamed for the failings of Romania? Socialism is based on equality and community support. Romania was a totalitarian regime and therefore not socialist in its real sense. It borrowed huge amounts of money from capitalist institutions and tried to operate on a capitalist basis, that was its down fall.
Of course romania was socialist. But you've tried to mask that fact by suggesting it was a totalitarian regime, the inference being that the political system made a difference.
And for want of repeating myself, it was governments that lent the money and not capitalist institutions. You really can't say that it's the fault of capitalism that romania failed just because the money lent to it came from capitalist economies. Unless you're suggesting the financial crash was the result of communism because a lot of the loans came from China?
The Greeks gave a resounding 'no' to further austerity
Syriza - a hard left party control the Greek parliament.
This was a clear opportunity for the Greek socialists to leave the eu and build a socialist state within Greece.
However rather than have courage in their convictions it would appear syriza and the rest of the Greek socialist would prefer to live within a capitalist EU rather than live within a Greek socialist state. I think that says all we need to know about socialism and whether people really want a socialist economy compared to a capitalist economy. Capitalism provides wealth, opportunity, advancement, technology and a bright future. Given the chance of an equal society or all of the aforementioned the Greeks have chosen the path of prosperity over the path of equality.
So we finally have an agreement. Sovereign Greece could have chosen a path of socialism where everyone in society would have had a fair share of economic output. They would have been poor - even worse than they are today, but they would have stuck to their principles.
However when it came to it they have chosen to kick their scruples and socialism in to the long grass and have preferred the free market path as they know that and that alone will bring them longer term wealth, prosperity and happiness.
The Greek people have shown that when all said and done, no matter how bad things get, no matter how poor you are, goven a choice the people will always choose the hope of capitalism over the drudgery of socialism.
The Greek people are sovereign, the Greek people made a choice and that choice is clear for all to see.
archibald leitch
13-07-15, 12:31
So we finally have an agreement. Sovereign Greece could have chosen a path of socialism where everyone in society would have had a fair share of economic output. They would have been poor - even worse than they are today, but they would have stuck to their principles.The other thing that is clear is that the EU does not give a flying **** about the democratic will of people it is only interested in the interests of capital.
My condolences go to the people of Greece who have been shafted by the international lone sharks.
A very interesting way of looking at things that gives some insight into the way your mind works but bears no relation to what has actually happened. of course it is, you just don't like it because it doesn't fit in with your world view.
The PEOPLE of Greece elected a left wing government on an anti austerity ticket.
correct
The PEOPLE of Greece rejected austerity in a referendum.
The Prime Minister of Greece has agreed to austerity against the wishes of THE PEOPLE. because the alternative was Greece becoming a socialist state - a poor state with no chance or hope for its future.
So despite your claims the PEOPLE of Greece have not embraced capitalism with open arms.
of course they have. they wish to remain in the Euro as they realise that is the path to prosperitywhat about Finland, The Netherlands, Austria...are those people allowed to exercise their democratic voice too? Because as far as I can see they have all elected pro austerity governments that want to see Greece pay its way and live within its means.
My condolences go to the people of Greece who have been shafted by the international lone sharks.but they borrowed the money, why shouldn't they have to pay it back?
My condolences go to the people of Greece who have been shafted by the international lone sharks.
but they borrowed the money, why shouldn't they have to pay it back?Who is "they"?
My condolences go to the people of Greece who have been shafted by the international lone sharks.
but they borrowed the money, why shouldn't they have to pay it back?
Who is "they"?the Greeks
My condolences go to the people of Greece who have been shafted by the international lone sharks.
but they borrowed the money, why shouldn't they have to pay it back?
Who is "they"?
the GreeksYou be saying that "we" caused the banking collapse next http://www.ccmb.co.uk/images/smiley_icons/hehe.gif
Any particular ones?
the ones who voted for successive governments who maxed out the nations credit card.You be saying that "we" caused the banking collapse next http://www.ccmb.co.uk/images/smiley_icons/hehe.gif the people responsible are those that took on credit that was unaffordable.
archibald leitch
13-07-15, 16:02
A very interesting way of looking at things that gives some insight into the way your mind works but bears no relation to what has actually happened. of course it is, you just don't like it because it doesn't fit in with your world view.
No, nothing to do with my world view, simply a statement of facts
The PEOPLE of Greece elected a left wing government on an anti austerity ticket.
Correct
Ah so you DO accept that my facts are correct. Interesting
The PEOPLE of Greece rejected austerity in a referendum.
Another inconvenient fact you don't like because it shoots your argument down in flames
The Prime Minister of Greece has agreed to austerity against the wishes of THE PEOPLE. because the alternative was Greece becoming a socialist state - a poor state with no chance or hope for its future.I had decided I was not going to waste any more time arguing with you but your post this morning was so inaccurate I was not sure if you were serious or on yet another troll fishing trip. If you care to respond based on the facts of the situation I will continue to debate. If you continue to ignore the facts that are so bleeding obvious do not expect a response.</b>
Archie
they are not facts just because you say they are, they are merely your interpretation based upon your distorted world view. the facts are as presented:-
the greek people elected a hard left government
the greek people rejected austerity (i've never disagreed with this so I'm not sure why you say my argument 'is shot down in flames'). I thought i had responded to this with 'correct' above in the way I answered 'correct' to the claim that the Greeks voted in a hard left government but it appears that was omitted so apologies for that oversight).
the greek government faced with socialism in Greece and being eternally poor or staying within the capitalist club of the EU have rejected socialism and adopted capitalism
the greek government will present this rejection of their principles in favour of stability, growth and prosperity to the Greek parliament
time will tell whether the Greek parliament takes the path of prosperity or decides to listen to the will of the Greek people and take the path of socialism and poverty.
this isn't trolling, this is saying it like it is. you forever call it trolling just because you disagree with it, try growing up and accepting that others have a difference of opinion.
archibald leitch
13-07-15, 17:09
Archie
the facts are as presented:-
the greek people elected a hard left governmentETA - it is also why i think i have better things to do than waste my time trying to debate with you. Good night.
pardon. the comments aren't contradictory. I'm sure you are aware the greek people is not the greek parliament nor are they the greek government. so it is possible for the Greek people to vote in a hard left government, it is possible for the greek people to reject austerity, and it is possible for the Greek government to dismiss austerity and go pro austerity as they have done.
you're an oddball at times. the Greek government this morning accepted the bailout conditions which includes further austerity. How can you even suggest that this is not the case. The only people who label me a troll are those left wing posters who can't counter the arguments presented. For example, I've suggested the Greek government have rejected austerity and you label me a troll. madness.
archibald leitch
13-07-15, 17:20
pardon. the comments aren't contradictory. I'm sure you are aware the greek people is not the greek parliament nor are they the greek government. so it is possible for the Greek people to vote in a hard left government, it is possible for the greek people to reject austerity, and it is possible for the Greek government to dismiss austerity and go pro austerity as they have done.
you're an oddball at times. the Greek government this morning accepted the bailout conditions which includes further austerity. How can you even suggest that this is not the case. The only people who label me a troll are those left wing posters who can't counter the arguments presented. For example, I've suggested the Greek government have rejected austerity and you label me a troll. madness.http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-3Ntggj-dMW0/VEgC2OsHVlI/AAAAAAAAKuA/XaJ9ZCEfSig/s1600/daffydizzy%2B(1).gif
I was under the impression that the Greek people elected the parliament to make decisions on their behalf and that the Greek government was made up of those who controlled the parliament. Therefore the Greek government are exercising their right to act for the sovereign Greek people
archibald leitch
13-07-15, 19:05
I was under the impression that the Greek people elected the parliament to make decisions on their behalf and that the Greek government was made up of those who controlled the parliament. Therefore the Greek government are exercising their right to act for the sovereign Greek people In this case, the governmnet did not need to make a decision on anyone's behalf, the people had spoken in a referendum over this specific issue.
I was under the impression that the Greek people elected the parliament to make decisions on their behalf and that the Greek government was made up of those who controlled the parliament. Therefore the Greek government are exercising their right to act for the sovereign Greek people
In this case, the governmnet did not need to make a decision on anyone's behalf, the people had spoken in a referendum over this specific issue.When faced with the choice the Greek government had to choose either accepting austerity and staying in the euro or following their own socialist agenda but reverting back to the drachma. They chose further austerity as they knew if they made any other choice the Greek economy would collapse. It's up to the Greek parliament now. They can either choose capitalism and the path to prosperity or socialism and the path to poverty. It's a tough choice.
archibald leitch
13-07-15, 21:20
Nearly 80% of Greeks wish to stay in the euro. That's an even greater mandate than ending austerity.
Really? When did they vote on that?
When faced with the choice the Greek government had to choose either accepting austerity and staying in the euro or following their own socialist agenda but reverting back to the drachma. They chose further austerity as they knew if they made any other choice the Greek economy would collapse. They can choose self-rule or domination by other countries. Yes, a tough choice. Telling the banks to **** off seems to have done Iceland the world of good. (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/iceland-the-economy-that-came-in-from-the-cold-10306545.html)
I don't really understand the agreement the Greeks have donee today. If they were going to sign a deal like they have, why bother with the referendum?
Was their Prime Minister hoping for the vote to go the other way and then passing the blame. It seems he's gone totally agains the recetn vote.
What is the logic behind it?
archibald leitch
13-07-15, 21:48
this is interesting
The full transcript of the former Greek Finance Minister's first interview since resigning. (http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/07/yanis-varoufakis-full-transcript-our-battle-save-greece)
archibald leitch
13-07-15, 21:53
this is interesting Another review of the talks from the Financial Times (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f908e534-2942-11e5-8db8-c033edba8a6e.html#axzz3foKI0SEg). Scary stuff
archibald leitch
13-07-15, 22:15
I don't really understand the agreement the Greeks have donee today. If they were going to sign a deal like they have, why bother with the referendum?Paul Mason video blog on the subject (http://blogs.channel4.com/paul-mason-blog/greece-wins-euro-debt-deal-democracy-loser/4155)
I don't really understand the agreement the Greeks have donee today. If they were going to sign a deal like they have, why bother with the referendum?
Was their Prime Minister hoping for the vote to go the other way and then passing the blame. It seems he's gone totally agains the recetn vote. Will take a look in a bit. http://www.ccmb.co.uk/images/smiley_icons/thumbup.gif
Archie
In the run up to the (Greek) referendum it was in the press that the Greeks were in favour of staying in the Euro and that polls had the figure at around 75-80%.
The Greeks have a choice, no one is forcing them to sign the agreement, they could stick to their socialist principles, reject austerity and go on their own. Why are you saying they are being forced to do this, they are sovereign, they could reject it if they wanted to.
archibald leitch
14-07-15, 16:00
Archie
In the run up to the (Greek) referendum it was in the press that the Greeks were in favour of staying in the Euro and that polls had the figure at around 75-80%. Yes, they have two choices, but let's not pretend that either of these are choices that the people of Greece are going to be 'happy' with and lets not pretend there is no coercion involved here. To suggest otherwise undermines your argument cos it is demonstrates that you are not being objective.
I am being objective archie. You don't see it as such because you are against what the eu stands for.
The point is the Greek government could go it alone and who knows they may make a success of it. But I think deep down they know they need eu money otherwise bills won't get paid. So they could choose bankruptcy and start again, or they could choose working with their creditors. Greece is a sovereign nation and are free to choose their own path. There is no gun to the head, this isn't hobsons choice as they have a very real alternative to staying in the euro. They just don't have courage in their convictions to follow it through.
It must really grate you that a hard left party has discarded their political beliefs when faced with economic reality. Either live as a socialist but be poor or live as a capitalist but be better off. You always says capitalism is about greed yet here we are seeing a hard left party discard their beliefs to make sure they and the people they represent are better off. The irony is not lost on me.
archibald leitch
14-07-15, 16:16
I am being objective archie. You don't see it as such because you are against what the eu stands for.What colour is the sky on your planet?
I am being objective archie. You don't see it as such because you are against what the eu stands for.
The point is the Greek government could go it alone and who knows they may make a success of it. But I think deep down they know they need eu money otherwise bills won't get paid. So they could choose bankruptcy and start again, or they could choose working with their creditors. Greece is a sovereign nation and are free to choose their own path. There is no gun to the head, this isn't hobsons choice as they have a very real alternative to staying in the euro. They just don't have courage in their convictions to follow it through.humouring you though, what exactly is wrong with my post. please don't say everything - be specific. the point I've raised is that the Greeks have a choice - which they do.
archibald leitch
14-07-15, 16:35
I am being objective archie. You don't see it as such because you are against what the eu stands for.
The point is the Greek government could go it alone and who knows they may make a success of it. But I think deep down they know they need eu money otherwise bills won't get paid. So they could choose bankruptcy and start again, or they could choose working with their creditors. Greece is a sovereign nation and are free to choose their own path. There is no gun to the head, this isn't hobsons choice as they have a very real alternative to staying in the euro. They just don't have courage in their convictions to follow it through.
It must really grate you that a hard left party has discarded their political beliefs when faced with economic reality. Either live as a socialist but be poor or live as a capitalist but be better off. You always says capitalism is about greed yet here we are seeing a hard left party discard their beliefs to make sure they and the people they represent are better off. The irony is not lost on me.Yes, the option of shit or shit with rat poison on top. Great stuff.
Isn't that the fault of the Greeks and the fact they have no economy?
If socialism was such a good proposition then why aren't the Greeks telling the eu to do one, they can leave the euro and adopt whatever socialist policies they want. Surely if socialism was everything that you claim then the Greeks would be free of the capitalist yoke on the path to prosperity, equality and happiness.
archibald leitch
14-07-15, 16:46
Isn't that the fault of the Greeks and the fact they have no economy?What exaclty am i supposed to be claiming socialism is?
Isn't that the fault of the Greeks and the fact they have no economy?
If socialism was such a good proposition then why aren't the Greeks telling the eu to do one, they can leave the euro and adopt whatever socialist policies they want. Surely if socialism was everything that you claim then the Greeks would be free of the capitalist yoke on the path to prosperity, equality and happiness.pk, not socialism, but some derivative of a hard left philosophy.
archibald leitch
14-07-15, 17:11
Isn't that the fault of the Greeks and the fact they have no economy?
If socialism was such a good proposition then why aren't the Greeks telling the eu to do one, they can leave the euro and adopt whatever socialist policies they want. Surely if socialism was everything that you claim then the Greeks would be free of the capitalist yoke on the path to prosperity, equality and happiness.
What exaclty am i supposed to be claiming socialism is?There is little point discussing 'if some derivative of hard left philosphy is all that i claim it to be' cos as far as i know the people of greece are not considering going down the road of anarcho syndicalism (although in fairness, they do have one of the biggest anarchist movemnets in europe).
Isn't that the fault of the Greeks and the fact they have no economy?
If socialism was such a good proposition then why aren't the Greeks telling the eu to do one, they can leave the euro and adopt whatever socialist policies they want. Surely if socialism was everything that you claim then the Greeks would be free of the capitalist yoke on the path to prosperity, equality and happiness.
What exaclty am i supposed to be claiming socialism is?
pk, not socialism, but some derivative of a hard left philosophy.since you are splitting hairs let me put this another way. the Greek government could have followed their own hard left philosophy but chose instead to follow a path of free market liberalism. that is a fact. whether the Greek people go for it is another thing altogether, but if they are anything like their government, they will discard their principles for the chance of a better life.
archibald leitch
14-07-15, 17:22
since you are splitting hairs let me put this another way. the Greek government could have followed their own hard left philosophy but chose instead to follow a path of free market liberalism. that is a fact. whether the Greek people go for it is another thing altogether, but if they are anything like their government, they will discard their principles for the chance of a better life.the idea which you are trying to present, that they are embracing free market neoliberalism with open arms, is frankly ludicrous.
What was the third option you think they really wanted?
archibald leitch
14-07-15, 18:19
What was the third option you think they really wanted?Assistance without being dicated to would be my guess.
What was the third option you think they really wanted?
Assistance without being dicated to would be my guess.The Greeks have shown they are financially irresponsible. Why should lenders just keep lending to Greece when they are already in default? Do you think it is unreasonable for lenders want assurances that they will get their money back?
archibald leitch
14-07-15, 18:42
What was the third option you think they really wanted?
Assistance without being dicated to would be my guess.
The Greeks have shown they are financially irresponsible. Why should lenders just keep lending to Greece when they are already in default? Do you think it is unreasonable for lenders want assurances that they will get their money back?The people of greece are not at all happy (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33509864)
Greece needs to demonstrate that they can pay back what they borrow. As they are already in default it is clear the level of public spending is too high. Therefore any lender is going to want structural changes to the economy and public spending. If the Greeks don't like it they don't have to borrow.
So the Greek government have agreed to the proposals and the Greek parliament, on behalf of the people, have ratified the proposals.
When faced with a clear choice of free market liberalism or socialism the Greeks have resoundingly rejected the path of the hard left. Of that there is no doubt. This should be no surprise as given a choice the people will always reject the poverty associated with the hard left and prefer the wealthier lifestyle provided by claiming capitalist society.
archibald leitch
16-07-15, 16:32
So the Greek government have agreed to the proposals and the Greek parliament, on behalf of the people, have ratified the proposals.Anyway - Paul Mason's take on it (http://blogs.channel4.com/paul-mason-blog/greece-crisis-austerity-deal-pointless) is slightly more in touch with reality. I have liked his work for some time but he really does sem to be coming of age with this crisis.
I'm just pointing out that when push comes to shove lofty political ideals often have to make way for economic reality.
I don't necessarily disagree with that article. I think the euro zone has to look at Greece in a years time and see how the economy is performing and how it's citizens lives have improved or worsened.at that point either they accept it will never work or will see things getting better.
archibald leitch
16-07-15, 17:26
I'm just pointing out that when push comes to shove lofty political ideals often have to make way for economic reality.This aint over by a long chalk. The IMF have been slagging off this deal, and given their track record that is going some. It is also becoming apparent that the Eurozone may not actually have enough money to make this loan. They have been talking of dipping into The European Financial Stability Mechanism (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33532485), which is EU money, not just Euro Zone money and Cameron aint having any of it.
Cameron has a cheek. The uk is a beneficiary of a rebate that has been in place from a time when the uk was the poor man of the eu. Now there are plenty of more deserving nations that need that rebate. Greece being of one them
you can have all the principles in the world, all the great ideas about social justice and how you're going to make the world a fairer place, but when faced with cold hard economic facts, reality bites (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33934238) time and again. It seems socialists and those who adopt a hard lesson never take on board the hard lessons of history always thinking that somehow, this time, things will be different.
Greece and Syriza and finally woken up to the fact that they do need to adopt a fiscally responsible position and cannot go on spending money they do not have. I'm not suggesting that they are happy to adopt this position, but they have clearly put their principles to one side to ensure ongoing economic and financial recovery.
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