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Why is it that even within the EU we could more than half immigration tomorrow, as the majority are from outside the EU, but no government will?
Why is it that all rich countries are actively encouraging immigration?
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23030681-100-the-truth-about-migration-rich-countries-need-immigrants/
We are getting old as a nation, and we need working age people to pay for us.
Even better if they stay for a few years and then go home before they are old.
I don't think immigration could be any different outside of the EU.
Badly Ironed Shirt
22-06-16, 13:04
Why is it that even within the EU we could more than half immigration tomorrow, as the majority are from outside the EU, but no government will?
Why is it that all rich countries are actively encouraging immigration?
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23030681-100-the-truth-about-migration-rich-countries-need-immigrants/
We are getting old as a nation, and we need working age people to pay for us.
Even better if they stay for a few years and then go home before they are old.
I don't think immigration could be any different outside of the EU.
http://fortune.com/2015/09/08/germany-migrant-crisis/
I'm worried that pensions will become unsustainable at a time when I need them. Germany recognise the issue, and are actively seeking to address the issue. I've never been sure what the problem is - people talk about a drain on resources. The Government has always said migration brings in more in tax revenues than it takes out in benefits etc.
If that is the case, then surely the issue is about the lack of investment into schools, hospitals, roads and policing - and not about people draining the resources we have?
It's not the working immigrants that are a drain it's the ones coming in that don't work, like all the criminals/ economic immigrants etc. Most of the immigrants from outside the EU are skilled or professional/qualified workers where as the majority from the EU and those beyond that have arrived in the EU etc are not :thumbup:
Wales-Bales
22-06-16, 13:45
The issue is not immigration, it is uncontrolled immigration. People will still come here to work, but on a points based system like they do in Australia, as opposed to the open borders that exist now.
The issue is not immigration, it is uncontrolled immigration. People will still come here to work, but on a points based system like they do in Australia, as opposed to the open borders that exist now.
Australia has a higher proportion of immigrants compared to the population tho 🙄
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/immigration-system-boris-australia_uk_574eceb9e4b0089281b4fc8c
Wales-Bales
22-06-16, 14:08
Australia has a higher proportion of immigrants compared to the population tho ��
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/immigration-system-boris-australia_uk_574eceb9e4b0089281b4fc8c
It's managed tho, not a free-for-all :thumbup:
Australia has a higher proportion of immigrants compared to the population tho ��
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/immigration-system-boris-australia_uk_574eceb9e4b0089281b4fc8c
The essential point is that Australia can choose how many can come and the skills they need to fill skill shortages. There is a skills list and if you don't match the requirements don't bother to apply. There is absolutely zero chance of getting in for those who are jobless or do not possess a skill that Australia needs. The reason Australia wants to attract immigrants and have higher number is due to the fact that they need certain skills for their economy to grow. But as they are in control they can turn off the tap when they choose.
It would be interesting to see the costs of leaving, implementing new trade deals and systems vs the costs of those that "don't work". Btw I thought economic migrants would work :hehe:
It's not the working immigrants that are a drain it's the ones coming in that don't work, like all the criminals/ economic immigrants etc. Most of the immigrants from outside the EU are skilled or professional/qualified workers where as the majority from the EU and those beyond that have arrived in the EU etc are not :thumbup:
The vast majority coming from the EU have a job to come to. If you were choosing somewhere in the EU to come and live off benefits then it wouldn't be here surely?
It's not the working immigrants that are a drain it's the ones coming in that don't work, like all the criminals/ economic immigrants etc. Most of the immigrants from outside the EU are skilled or professional/qualified workers where as the majority from the EU and those beyond that have arrived in the EU etc are not :thumbup:
The issue is not immigration, it is uncontrolled immigration. People will still come here to work, but on a points based system like they do in Australia, as opposed to the open borders that exist now.
People keep saying EU migration is uncontrolled. There are rules and my understanding is that you can go to another member state for three months. After that you can only stay if you have a job, you're a student, you're being supported by someone or if you apply for an extension as a job seeker (key word being apply).
We can also refuse EU migrants or family members on the grounds of, amongst other things, public security. Just having a criminal conviction doesn't mean you're automatically refused but the UK can use that as a reason to deny entry.
There are no doubt EU migrants who are here despite falling foul of the rules (Citizen Rights Directive if anyone's interested) but it's also worth remembering that the UK has the responsibility to check. In other words, if people need to be chucked out then it's up to us and not the EU to do it.
Some other stats. The 2015 International Passenger Survey (dudes with clipboards in airports) found that 44% of EU migrants came because they had a job and 32% came to look for work (15% studying).
The UK Labour Force survey says that of around 3m EU migrants in the UK, 2.15m are working (which excludes self employment).
Badly Ironed Shirt
22-06-16, 14:59
It's not the working immigrants that are a drain it's the ones coming in that don't work, like all the criminals/ economic immigrants etc. Most of the immigrants from outside the EU are skilled or professional/qualified workers where as the majority from the EU and those beyond that have arrived in the EU etc are not :thumbup:
Some facts to back this up please.
Badly Ironed Shirt
22-06-16, 15:00
It's managed tho, not a free-for-all :thumbup:
But there are, per head, more people immigrating into Australia than immigrating into the UK. If the UK adopted the Australian system, and if the effects on immigration were the same as those experienced in Australia - then the number of people coming into the UK would increase not decrease.
Croesy Blue
22-06-16, 15:05
It's managed tho, not a free-for-all :thumbup:
If we had the same points based system Austrailia does our immigration would increase.
The rules of the EU allow us to control immigration from within the Eu quite well, it's the immigration from outside the eu we need to deal with.
If anyone is wavering towards voting Leave because of the uncontrolled immigration of criminals from the EU, I'd ask you to consider this:
As I said above, there are rules and it's the UK responsibility to properly identify those who fall foul of them and prevent entry. If we leave the EU, do you think that funding is suddenly going to be given to our border controls to help them do this job properly?
As I said above, there are rules and it's the UK responsibility to properly identify those who fall foul of them and prevent entry. If we leave the EU, do you think that funding is suddenly going to be given to our border controls to help them do this job properly?
Why wouldnt it be ? ? ??
do you think the leave campaign ( dont forget its a all party effort on both sides ) would have gone to that much trouble and then think " Ah fook it, lets now spend anything on Border control " ? ? ?
of course we will spend money on border control, why wouldnt we ? ? ?
AfricanBluebird
22-06-16, 15:38
It's not the working immigrants that are a drain it's the ones coming in that don't work, like all the criminals/ economic immigrants etc. Most of the immigrants from outside the EU are skilled or professional/qualified workers where as the majority from the EU and those beyond that have arrived in the EU etc are not :thumbup:
We have benefitted economically from economic migration of course. Immigrants are less likely to receive benefits than British people and net contribution is positive.
Do we have a perfect system? No we don't. Is coming out of the EU the solution.. Absolutely not.
Why wouldnt it be ? ? ??
do you think the leave campaign ( dont forget its a all party effort on both sides ) would have gone to that much trouble and then think " Ah fook it, lets now spend anything on Border control " ? ? ?
of course we will spend money on border control, why wouldnt we ? ? ?
Immigration has been a big point in general elections, hence the rise of UKIP. If that hasn't spurred more money to go onto border control then I'd need a more convincing argument than 'why wouldn't it be?' to be confident it would change.
I'm interested that you seem to think the Leave campaign will be running the country after the referendum.
Croesy Blue
22-06-16, 15:42
Why wouldnt it be ? ? ??
do you think the leave campaign ( dont forget its a all party effort on both sides ) would have gone to that much trouble and then think " Ah fook it, lets now spend anything on Border control " ? ? ?
of course we will spend money on border control, why wouldnt we ? ? ?
If they want to negotiate a trade deal with the EU I doubt that much will change.
I don't think money needs to spent on controlling the borders more on the rules that allows people to come here.
Immigration has been a big point in general elections, hence the rise of UKIP. If that hasn't spurred more money to go onto border control then I'd need a more convincing argument than 'why wouldn't it be?' to be confident it would change.
I'm interested that you seem to think the Leave campaign will be running the country after the referendum.
Did i say the leave campaign will be running the country ? ? ? No, BUT they will be part of whatever government is in power ( thus i said " dont forget its a all party effort on both sides " )
I am afraid your post just looks more propaganda for the stay campaign, oh look, if we leave, we will have no border control, so voting leave will not stop immigration of criminals
If they want to negotiate a trade deal with the EU I doubt that much will change.
I don't think money needs to spent on controlling the borders more on the rules that allows people to come here.
indeed, the rule that allow people to come in, yet in the EU we cannot set them rules ( for EU nationals )
Did i say the leave campaign will be running the country ? ? ? No, BUT they will be part of whatever government is in power ( thus i said " dont forget its a all party effort on both sides " )
I am afraid your post just looks more propaganda for the stay campaign, oh look, if we leave, we will have no border control, so voting leave will not stop immigration of criminals
:hehe: I'm sorry you didn't understand it. :hehe:
We will always have border control. We have border control now. I'm correcting people who say that we currently don't.
Croesy Blue
23-06-16, 05:14
indeed, the rule that allow people to come in, yet in the EU we cannot set them rules ( for EU nationals )
Yes we can 3 months stay and if they don't find a job they have to go home.
indeed, the rule that allow people to come in, yet in the EU we cannot set them rules ( for EU nationals )
Whilst we are in the EU, we have a say on how those rules are set. We also have a veto on new member states.
Leave, and we lose that veto and we lose our influence over the rules.
UKIP are playing on, what I believe to be, inherent British mistrust of foreigners.
They are telling you about how bad things are, they're telling you who to blame, but they're not offering any real solutions, other than the one that suits their agenda to seize power I.e Leave, the EU, the magic bullet that will solve all your problems. Except it won't.
Croesy Blue
23-06-16, 06:11
It's isn't even a mistrust of foreigners, most British people like to shift the blame of why their life hasn't turned out how they would have liked.
So they pick an easy scapegoat; immigrants, the government, the man keeping them down etc.
It's isn't even a mistrust of foreigners, most British people like to shift the blame of why their life hasn't turned out how they would have liked.
So they pick an easy scapegoat; immigrants, the government, the man keeping them down etc.
Good point
Whilst we are in the EU, we have a say on how those rules are set. We also have a veto on new member states.
Leave, and we lose that veto and we lose our influence over the rules.
UKIP are playing on, what I believe to be, inherent British mistrust of foreigners.
They are telling you about how bad things are, they're telling you who to blame, but they're not offering any real solutions, other than the one that suits their agenda to seize power I.e Leave, the EU, the magic bullet that will solve all your problems. Except it won't.
They don't need to offer solutions. They've, probably correctly, identified immigration as a vote winner. This thread has shown that people will think, they've said it's a problem so 'why wouldn't' they spend lots of money on it? Even though 'they', in this case, are two different groups of people.
This referendum is very unlike a GE, where a campaign can make pretty much any promise about what life would be like after but it's not part of a manifesto and they don't have direct control to achieve it, so there is no accountability after. And that is true for both sides.
They don't need to offer solutions. They've, probably correctly, identified immigration as a vote winner. This thread has shown that people will think, they've said it's a problem so 'why wouldn't' they spend lots of money on it? Even though 'they', in this case, are two different groups of people.
This referendum is very unlike a GE, where a campaign can make pretty much any promise about what life would be like after but it's not part of a manifesto and they don't have direct control to achieve it, so there is no accountability after. And that is true for both sides.
The latest line being pedaled by REMAIN politicians is that immigration issues can be resolved within a reformed EU. What nonsense! Free movement will be retained for as long as some countries are happy to see their unemployed moving elsewhere. Indeed one eastern European leader has said as much. The EU are not interested in reform.Their agenda is about expanding their ideology.
I have been agonising about how I shall vote as there are many arguments for and against but the most compelling arguments for me are more about democracy rather than immigration although it has to be said that if numbers continue at their present level the population will expand faster than public services will be able to cope.
The latest line being pedaled by REMAIN politicians is that immigration issues can be resolved within a reformed EU. What nonsense! Free movement will be retained for as long as some countries are happy to see their unemployed moving elsewhere. Indeed one eastern European leader has said as much. The EU are not interested in reform.Their agenda is about expanding their ideology.
I have been agonising about how I shall vote as there are many arguments for and against but the most compelling arguments for me are more about democracy rather than immigration although it has to be said that if numbers continue at their present level the population will expand faster than public services will be able to cope.
I think it's fair to say that immigration problems are not going to be solved by a swish of the wand by us voting to Leave or Remain.
It's isn't even a mistrust of foreigners, most British people like to shift the blame of why their life hasn't turned out how they would have liked.
So they pick an easy scapegoat; immigrants, the government, the man keeping them down etc.
Its funny how you ( and someone else said that when i was called a xenophobe, though he did actually say that I blame them for my life, you havent named me ), I couldnt think of anything that would improve my life, my life is fairly rosey at the mo ( i am sure someone will be along and mention my 12 K holiday soon enough :wave: ) so my thoughts on immigration are nothing to do with my life, as i have said, i have nothing against immigrants coming IF they are needed and not just to come over for our better way of life and what they can get from the " system "
:hehe: I'm sorry you didn't understand it. :hehe:
We will always have border control. We have border control now. I'm correcting people who say that we currently don't.
BUT we do not have a say on who comes from the EU, that is out of out control
BUT we do not have a say on who comes from the EU, that is out of out control
Do you have a source on that? My post above, which contradicts what you say, is from the Citizens Rights Directive.
Do you have a source on that? My post above, which contradicts what you say, is from the Citizens Rights Directive.
You remainers with all your facts.....
You remainers with all your facts.....
I'm waiting for "my source is a Daily Express headline" :hehe:
People keep saying EU migration is uncontrolled. There are rules and my understanding is that you can go to another member state for three months. After that you can only stay if you have a job, you're a student, you're being supported by someone or if you apply for an extension as a job seeker (key word being apply).
We can also refuse EU migrants or family members on the grounds of, amongst other things, public security. Just having a criminal conviction doesn't mean you're automatically refused but the UK can use that as a reason to deny entry.
There are no doubt EU migrants who are here despite falling foul of the rules (Citizen Rights Directive if anyone's interested) but it's also worth remembering that the UK has the responsibility to check. In other words, if people need to be chucked out then it's up to us and not the EU to do it.
Do you have a source on that? My post above, which contradicts what you say, is from the Citizens Rights Directive.
Do you really believe all of that then :hehe: its fine quoting sources of rules, BUT reality is different
A pole comes over for 3 months, gets a job cleaning tables, he is in, then he is entitled to the " system " , then his family move over free health care, free schools etc etc
I'm waiting for "my source is a Daily Express headline" :hehe:
you must either spend all your time sat in your house on your PC and not be out meeting people in the real world
get out, look around you, you will see the eastern Europeans with your own eyes
or you are just argumentative for the sake of it
Badly Ironed Shirt
23-06-16, 09:29
Do you really believe all of that then :hehe: its fine quoting sources of rules, BUT reality is different
A pole comes over for 3 months, gets a job cleaning tables, he is in, then he is entitled to the " system " , then his family move over free health care, free schools etc etc
He is paying into the system with taxes and NI. Just like you, just like me.
you must either spend all your time sat in your house on your PC and not be out meeting people in the real world
get out, look around you, you will see the eastern Europeans with your own eyes
or you are just argumentative for the sake of it
Incredible. On the day of the biggest vote of my life, I am actually being mocked for trying to find out for myself what is true and what is lies/hyperbole.
Do you really believe all of that then :hehe: its fine quoting sources of rules, BUT reality is different
A pole comes over for 3 months, gets a job cleaning tables, he is in, then he is entitled to the " system " , then his family move over free health care, free schools etc etc
Like I said, there are rules (you don't believe they exist) and it's up to the uk to enforce them.
Although tbf you are using three months now, so I'm glad to have taught you something today :thumbup:
It is very likely that immigration will be no lower in the event of a brexit.
severncity
23-06-16, 10:24
Yes we can 3 months stay and if they don't find a job they have to go home.
Rubbish. Anyone from anywhere in the EU can come to the UK and stay for as long as they want. You really are a shameless liar.
http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=457
Free Movement is a fundamental principle of the Treaty enshrined in Article 45 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union and developed by EU secondary legislation and the Case law of the Court of Justice. EU citizens are entitled to:
-look for a job in another EU country
-work there without needing a work permit
-reside there for that purpose
-stay there even after employment has finished
-enjoy equal treatment with nationals in access to employment, working conditions and all other social and tax advantages
Rubbish. Anyone from anywhere in the EU can come to the UK and stay for as long as they want. You really are a shameless liar.
Source?
life on mars
23-06-16, 10:30
http://fortune.com/2015/09/08/germany-migrant-crisis/
I'm worried that pensions will become unsustainable at a time when I need them. Germany recognise the issue, and are actively seeking to address the issue. I've never been sure what the problem is - people talk about a drain on resources. The Government has always said migration brings in more in tax revenues than it takes out in benefits etc.
If that is the case, then surely the issue is about the lack of investment into schools, hospitals, roads and policing - and not about people draining the resources we have?
spot on , Gordon Brown introduce a fund for it ,as he recogniszed the potential issues , funding has been stripped out by the government, the majoirty of European migrants come to work and pay taxes, in jobs our folk will not to do .
The out campaign will still have to deal with 180 plus non Europeans arriving , because of war zones were are involved in, the need to prop up the NHS , catering , cleaning, hotel work , shop workers in the major cities , madness .
If we had the same points based system Austrailia does our immigration would increase.
The rules of the EU allow us to control immigration from within the Eu quite well, it's the immigration from outside the eu we need to deal with.
Really. Who would you prefer? A doctor from India or an unskilled labourer from the EU. Immigration would not increase with a points based system because the government would set the overall limit and allow those on the skill shortages in within the overall number the government sets. If the public think the limit is too high they can vote the government out. We cannot vote the EU out so that is why the democracy argument is so compelling.
Rubbish. Anyone from anywhere in the EU can come to the UK and stay for as long as they want. You really are a shameless liar.
http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=457
Free Movement is a fundamental principle of the Treaty enshrined in Article 45 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union and developed by EU secondary legislation and the Case law of the Court of Justice. EU citizens are entitled to:
-look for a job in another EU country
-work there without needing a work permit
-reside there for that purpose
-stay there even after employment has finished
-enjoy equal treatment with nationals in access to employment, working conditions and all other social and tax advantages
Although if you scroll down to the bit that says 'restrictions', or read the 'under certain conditions' part, etc...
This says people can come to the UK and work, it doesn't say come to the UK and stay.
severncity
23-06-16, 10:44
Although if you scroll down to the bit that says 'restrictions', or read the 'under certain conditions' part, etc...
This says people can come to the UK and work, it doesn't say come to the UK and stay.
They can come and live here for as long as they want. All that is restricted is their entitlement to certain benefits. Obviously, without income it is difficult to live anywhere but if I wanted to go and live in Bulgaria there would be absolutely nothing to stop me.
They can come and live here for as long as they want. All that is restricted is their entitlement to certain benefits. Obviously, without income it is difficult to live anywhere but if I wanted to go and live in Bulgaria there would be absolutely nothing to stop me.
Not quite true. This is from elsewhere on your link http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=460&langId=en
People who are employed in another EU country are entitled to live there. Jobseekers are also allowed to stay in another country while they are looking for a job. (See the right to look for a job)
The host country may require them, as "EU migrant workers", to register with the authorities as residents. (See Directive 2004/38/EC)
Other legal and administrative formalities depend on the length of stay – up to 3 months, more than 3 months, or permanent.
severncity
23-06-16, 11:39
Not quite true. This is from elsewhere on your link http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=460&langId=en
People who are employed in another EU country are entitled to live there. Jobseekers are also allowed to stay in another country while they are looking for a job. (See the right to look for a job)
The host country may require them, as "EU migrant workers", to register with the authorities as residents. (See Directive 2004/38/EC)
Other legal and administrative formalities depend on the length of stay – up to 3 months, more than 3 months, or permanent.
There is NOTHING to stop anyone time the EU from living here for as long as they want. No mechanism for deportation - NOTHING. They may have their income and benefits restricted but practically speaking, as long as they say that they are working, looking for work, retired, starting a business or living with a family member, nothing can be done to make them leave.
Do you understand Lardy? All EU nationals can, practically speaking, stay here for as long as they want.
CCFC CASUAL
23-06-16, 11:44
He is paying into the system with taxes and NI. Just like you, just like me.
Cleaning tables he may not reach the tax threshold.
There is NOTHING to stop anyone time the EU from living here for as long as they want. No mechanism for deportation - NOTHING. They may have their income and benefits restricted but practically speaking, as long as they say that they are working, looking for work, retired, starting a business or living with a family member, nothing can be done to make them leave.
Do you understand Lardy? All EU nationals can, practically speaking, stay here for as long as they want.
Of course there is a mechanism for deportation. :hehe:
Is it satisfactory for most people? Probably not. Does one exist? Yes.
Who was calling someone a shameless liar...? :hehe:
Badly Ironed Shirt
23-06-16, 12:28
Cleaning tables he may not reach the tax threshold.
He'll be paying NI at the very least. That goes towards your pension and healthcare. He'll be paying council tax. That pays for your schools and policing. He may not have any kids, he may never get ill, he may move back home before he becomes a pensioner. He may never draw on any handout from the Government.
He'll be buying things, and paying VAT on that. He'll be using local services, thereby generating revenue for the supermarket, bookie, and pub in your town. Those places then employ people.
severncity
23-06-16, 12:43
Of course there is a mechanism for deportation. :hehe:
Is it satisfactory for most people? Probably not. Does one exist? Yes.
Who was calling someone a shameless liar...? :hehe:
There is no mechanism for deporting non-criminal EU citizens from the UK. There is no legal basis for doing so and it does not happen. Ever.
Badly Ironed Shirt
23-06-16, 13:04
There is no mechanism for deporting non-criminal EU citizens from the UK. There is no legal basis for doing so and it does not happen. Ever.
Why would you want to deport a non-criminal person from the UK?
There is no mechanism for deporting non-criminal EU citizens from the UK. There is no legal basis for doing so and it does not happen. Ever.
Changing your argument here, aren't you?
Eric Cartman
23-06-16, 14:03
There is NOTHING to stop anyone time the EU from living here for as long as they want. No mechanism for deportation - NOTHING. They may have their income and benefits restricted but practically speaking, as long as they say that they are working, looking for work, retired, starting a business or living with a family member, nothing can be done to make them leave.
Do you understand Lardy? All EU nationals can, practically speaking, stay here for as long as they want.
How long can you live somewhere without benefits or a job? If they aren't taking your job or claiming benefits why are you knickers in such a twist about having them thrown out?
severncity
23-06-16, 15:43
How long can you live somewhere without benefits or a job? If they aren't taking your job or claiming benefits why are you knickers in such a twist about having them thrown out?
I haven't got my knickers in a twist. I was merely responding to an outright lie. Maybe they're drug-dealers, or builders, or prostitutes, or beggars, or roofers, or cladders, or buskers, or squatters, or cleaners, or restaurant staff.
You know, people who work cash in hand?
severncity
23-06-16, 15:44
Changing your argument here, aren't you?
No. Of course criminals can be deported. I'd have thought that was self-evident.
Seems to me like people want to take more and give less.
severncity
23-06-16, 15:58
https://youtu.be/PF9j6ct9KD4
life on mars
23-06-16, 17:01
https://youtu.be/PF9j6ct9KD4
thank god if they dress like that
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