View Full Version : Jezza got stuffed regarding the confidence vote
Should he stay or should he go ?
Should he stay or should he go ?
if he stays there will be trouble
and if he goes there will be double
Should he stay or should he go ?
I'm certain there will be a Labour leadership election once the PLP majority agree on one or more (probably one) anti-Corbyn candidates to put up against him.
Despite the constitutional arguments I'm fairly sure Corbyn will stand again.
Then it's down to the members and supporters. It will be a different type of election from last summer and I doubt Corbyn will be a first ballor winner (was 60%) like last time. There is massive resentment amongst the Labour electorate about the PLP coup - but also a fraying of the original Corbyn support, but as things stand now he is still favourite.
That may change if the big unions lose confidence in him. Publicly he still has their backing - but it sounds as if that may not be as clear cut behind closed doors.
It will turn into a leadership campaign about principle and pragmatism - who can best renew the Labour Party and reach out to lost and new supporters - and who can win.
Should he stay or should he go ?
Well at least it's keeping Woy out of the firing line. :hehe:
Blessing in disguise for Woy.
I'm certain there will be a Labour leadership election once the PLP majority agree on one or more (probably one) anti-Corbyn candidates to put up against him.
Despite the constitutional arguments I'm fairly sure Corbyn will stand again.
Then it's down to the members and supporters. It will be a different type of election from last summer and I doubt Corbyn will be a first ballor winner (was 60%) like last time. There is massive resentment amongst the Labour electorate about the PLP coup - but also a fraying of the original Corbyn support, but as things stand now he is still favourite.
That may change if the big unions lose confidence in him. Publicly he still has their backing - but it sounds as if that may not be as clear cut behind closed doors.
It will turn into a leadership campaign about principle and pragmatism - who can best renew the Labour Party and reach out to lost and new supporters - and who can win.
Is this your opinion or is it a fact? How do you know?
It seems that this massive support he has amongst the labour electorate didn't seem to work in the Referendum. What makes you think it will work now?
life on mars
28-06-16, 17:15
Step up perhaps Angela Eagle , a brave appointment , I would suggest considering the blinkered views of many to civil partnership.
Others I would consider as good politicians are : Hilary Benn , Andy Burnham , Chuka Umunna , and Stephen Kinnock perhaps as an outsider, just don't know enough about him, comes across well on the media ,which unfortunately counts these days .
And where is David Miliband in all this I hear he potentially lined up for a "top" US government position if Hillary Clinton becomes president in January 2017 ,what a wasted opportunity for Labour , as him v a Bros would be fun and a potential win for labour ??
I feel though overall, and sadly this is the start of a break up within Labour , and the birth of two new parties.
Wales-Bales
28-06-16, 17:25
Is this even about his performance during the referendum?
http://www.ccmb.co.uk/showthread.php?417762-Mass-Labour-Shadow-Cabinet-Resignations-Planned&p=4642692&viewfull=1#post4642692
Is this your opinion or is it a fact? How do you know?
It seems that this massive support he has amongst the labour electorate didn't seem to work in the Referendum. What makes you think it will work now?
I meant the electorate for a Labour Party leader - the members, registered supporters and union supporters. The people who will decide.
I base my opinion only on what I have read on the interweb and in papers, seen on the TV, and on talking to Labour members in Sheffield and to representatives from the local Trades Council who are mostly rallying around Corbyn. They are not Momentum members. I may have a distorted picture of the mood and opinions of members/supporters across the UK, but I doubt it. I think Corbyn has lost some support since last September - but the PLP coup is seen by many as two fingers to the members and activists. If it had been done in a different way there may have been more support for a new leadership election and more openness to the idea that someone other than Corbyn is needed to lead a general election campaign.
I wonder who will be his Brutus,Watson or Mcdonnald (sp)
I meant the electorate for a Labour Party leader - the members, registered supporters and union supporters. The people who will decide.
I base my opinion only on what I have read on the interweb and in papers, seen on the TV, and on talking to Labour members in Sheffield and to representatives from the local Trades Council who are mostly rallying around Corbyn. They are not Momentum members. I may have a distorted picture of the mood and opinions of members/supporters across the UK, but I doubt it. I think Corbyn has lost some support since last September - but the PLP coup is seen by many as two fingers to the members and activists. If it had been done in a different way there may have been more support for a new election and more openness to the idea that someone other than Corbyn is needed to lead a general election campaign.
Don't forget the £3 tories,commies and socialist worker vermin.
Wales-Bales
28-06-16, 18:01
I meant the electorate for a Labour Party leader - the members, registered supporters and union supporters. The people who will decide.
I base my opinion only on what I have read on the interweb and in papers, seen on the TV, and on talking to Labour members in Sheffield and to representatives from the local Trades Council who are mostly rallying around Corbyn. They are not Momentum members. I may have a distorted picture of the mood and opinions of members/supporters across the UK, but I doubt it. I think Corbyn has lost some support since last September - but the PLP coup is seen by many as two fingers to the members and activists. If it had been done in a different way there may have been more support for a new leadership election and more openness to the idea that someone other than Corbyn is needed to lead a general election campaign.
A coup has been in the pipeline since the moment he became leader, the Blairites believe this is their moment.
A coup has been in the pipeline since the moment he became leader, the Blairites believe this is their moment.
I suspect they had their moment. Describe someone as 'Blairite' now and they are immediately less attractive a 'commodity'.
What a grand choice we have before us eh folks.
Huzzah.
Angela Eagle as the new leader? Dear God Labour might as well disband.
Wales-Bales
28-06-16, 18:09
I suspect they had their moment. Describe someone as 'Blairite' now and they are immediately less attractive a 'commodity'.
What a grand choice we have before us eh folks.
Huzzah.
It's not about the electorate, it's about the Westminster bubble and the careers that exist around it. They are looking after themselves.
Mad as a fish
28-06-16, 18:15
I'm certain there will be a Labour leadership election once the PLP majority agree on one or more (probably one) anti-Corbyn candidates to put up against him.
Despite the constitutional arguments I'm fairly sure Corbyn will stand again.
Then it's down to the members and supporters. It will be a different type of election from last summer and I doubt Corbyn will be a first ballor winner (was 60%) like last time. There is massive resentment amongst the Labour electorate about the PLP coup - but also a fraying of the original Corbyn support, but as things stand now he is still favourite.
That may change if the big unions lose confidence in him. Publicly he still has their backing - but it sounds as if that may not be as clear cut behind closed doors.
It will turn into a leadership campaign about principle and pragmatism - who can best renew the Labour Party and reach out to lost and new supporters - and who can win.
I hear you but he has proved in the last week he has no leadership qualities whatsoever, I am sure that a lot of people that voted for him are bitterly disappointed. What use is a leader if he cant fight his corner?
Angela Eagle as the new leader? Dear God Labour might as well disband.
The fact it has even been suggested is a kind of "we still have no idea", i'm just flummoxed by it all, we desperately IMO, need a labour government, and the leader may not be the best leader but a leader that appeals to the public, it seems that the public doesn't vote on policy, but on looks, spin and bullshit, get it wrong and we may be stuck with the Tories for another 2 terms minimum, although this particular term post Brexit might be a poisoned chalice.
Yeah I agree. Labour are in a hell of a mess and have got to get it right. Burnham is one of the very few who can connect with the working class vote. Eagle would be a disaster.
The fact it has even been suggested is a kind of "we still have no idea", i'm just flummoxed by it all, we desperately IMO, need a labour government, and the leader may not be the best leader but a leader that appeals to the public, it seems that the public doesn't vote on policy, but on looks, spin and bullshit, get it wrong and we may be stuck with the Tories for another 2 terms minimum, although this particular term post Brexit might be a poisoned chalice.
very optimistic. Following the change in constituency numbers and scotland leaving, it could be a lot longer than that.
very optimistic. Following the change in constituency numbers and scotland leaving, it could be a lot longer than that.
Are you trying to cheer me up Tommy by suggesting that from now till my grave i'll only see a Tory government :-(
Are you trying to cheer me up Tommy by suggesting that from now till my grave i'll only see a Tory government :-(
unless there's a change to electoral system, following the two things i've mentioned I think it's likely they'll be around for a long old time, yes.
Mad as a fish
28-06-16, 18:27
I fear you are probably right Tommy
Llanedeyrnblue
28-06-16, 18:29
Don't forget the £3 tories,commies and socialist worker vermin.
This^^^
Wales-Bales
28-06-16, 18:31
Yeah I agree. Labour are in a hell of a mess and have got to get it right. Burnham is one of the very few who can connect with the working class vote. Eagle would be a disaster.
She will appeal to minority groups though, which is what Labour politics is all about these days. You have to be seen supporting some cause or other.
Llanedeyrnblue
28-06-16, 18:33
Angela Eagle as the new leader? Dear God Labour might as well disband.
Can't stand the woman
It's not about the electorate, it's about the Westminster bubble and the careers that exist around it. They are looking after themselves.
Aha.
Maybe this is also about the imminent Chilcot report publication, and the notion that Jeremy C would speak his mind i.e. not support the notion that Blair's actions were just.
So they are closing in on him ahead of this, while also looking to save their butts?
Its a desperate and murky subject still. Maybe there is a bigger, unseen hand at work.
I don't know whether he should stay or go, but I don't think those now calling for his head have ever truly backed Corbyn and have been waiting for their moment. How can you be a party where the MP's never truly agreed or cared what the members voted for or, looking at the last batch of local elections, a lot of the public voted for?
Jeremy Corbyn was the one saying that Labour needed to be a broad church during the leadership race but it seems those mostly to the right of him in his party want none of that and are far more interested in power by any means (see the guardian opinion piece today which asks whether Hilary is a neo-con) than standing up for Labour values.
I don't think Corbyn can win an election when people talk about him "missing an open goal" in PMQ's and celebrate the Eagle who did it because she made cheap jibes at the Tories, but I don't think that's what our politics should be about and I don't think you should either. The House of Commons should not be about fist-pumping cuts which will cause many sleepless nights or dropping in words because you've lost a bet....Corbyn may not reflect your political views but our political landscape becoming a little more Corbyn-like would be a fantastic thing.
Or, you know, we could just stab him in the back because he cares more about Labour values than his media image and thus we don't think he can win an election.
life on mars
28-06-16, 18:45
The fact it has even been suggested is a kind of "we still have no idea", i'm just flummoxed by it all, we desperately IMO, need a labour government, and the leader may not be the best leader but a leader that appeals to the public, it seems that the public doesn't vote on policy, but on looks, spin and bullshit, get it wrong and we may be stuck with the Tories for another 2 terms minimum, although this particular term post Brexit might be a poisoned chalice.
"" a leader that appeals to the public "" = Blair ? didn't he manage one of the biggest political landslide victory known in recent times ?
"" a leader that appeals to the public "" = Blair ? didn't he manage one of the biggest political landslide victory known in recent times ?
He did, he must have appealed to the public and whilst I voted for him, he's now probably, most my disliked prime minister of my time, I put him below Thatcher
Wales-Bales
28-06-16, 18:50
He did, he must have appealed to the public and whilst I voted for him, he's now probably, most my disliked prime minister of my time, I put him below Thatcher
I wouldn't even rate him that highly.
Llanedeyrnblue
28-06-16, 19:19
I reckon Corbyn's a a Tory plant if he isn't he's certainly unelectable
Eric the Half a Bee
28-06-16, 19:19
Is this your opinion or is it a fact? How do you know?
It seems that this massive support he has amongst the labour electorate didn't seem to work in the Referendum. What makes you think it will work now?
Around 3/4 of Labour supporters voted remain.
Wales-Bales
28-06-16, 19:21
After the recent uprising of the plebs during the referendum, the establishment must be terrified of Corbyn and he needs to be stopped, either by the Blue Tories or by the Red Tories. It's one man versus the whole political class who can smell trouble ahead.
Eric the Half a Bee
28-06-16, 19:25
Labour needs a slightly left wing leader, someone who will stand up for the worst off, the disabled and the working man. Someone with some humanity and isn't a career politician. It's interesting that of all the resigned cabinet ministers, all of them voted with the Tories on cuts to tax credits and payments for the disabled.
The best thing that could happen for Labour is for the Tory light brigade to **** off, the ones who are only there for power. That'll stop the infighting within the party. If Labour are united, the right wing media hell bent on destroying Corbyn and any form of socialism will have less to feed on.
Around 3/4 of Labour supporters voted remain.
How do you know that?
All votes are secret. No one knows who voted how, it is all conjecture and numbers made up by polsters.
In a number of elections, including the last one they got it wrong ad the basic reason was what people tell them, and what those people actually do in the privacy of the voting booth are two different things.
Eric the Half a Bee
28-06-16, 19:32
How do you know that?
All votes are secret. No one knows who voted how, it is all conjecture and numbers made up by polsters.
In a number of elections, including the last one they got it wrong ad the basic reason was what people tell them, and what those people actually do in the privacy of the voting booth are two different things.
Are you suggesting Labour voters were secret Brexiters? I don't. In fact, of Labour supporters I know, all of them voted remain.
Are you suggesting Labour voters were secret Brexiters? I don't. In fact, of Labour supporters I know, all of them voted remain.
so how did the leave campaign do so well in the labour heartlands such as the north east and the welsh valleys, they hardly have any tory voters as labour normally sweep the board,
2 pro-Corbyn messages on facebook and the second one is definitely my favourite:
Every single member who resigned this week abstained on the 2015 Welfare Bill which lead to poor and disabled paying for £12 million more in cuts.
35 MPs nominated Jeremy last year and 40 stood with him today – an increase in parliamentary support if anything.
I reckon Corbyn's a a Tory plant if he isn't he's certainly unelectable
How? If you suppose he would have preferred to vote leave then he stands with 52% of the voting population which is more than the 37% Cameron won the last election with. It's just this week that one poll shows Labour moving ahead of the Tories.
Wales-Bales
28-06-16, 19:41
so how did the leave campaign do so well in the labour heartlands such as the north east and the welsh valleys, they hardly have any tory voters as labour normally sweep the board,
Nothing is what it appears to be :biggrin: There has been so much manipulation of the facts by both the politicians and the media, that most people don't have a clue about what is really going on. If anything, the confusion has been ramped up since the results became known. It's an all out propaganda war that we are witnessing.
Eric the Half a Bee
28-06-16, 19:48
so how did the leave campaign do so well in the labour heartlands such as the north east and the welsh valleys, they hardly have any tory voters as labour normally sweep the board,
UKIP's vote in Wales rose dramatically since 2011 and no doubt has continued to rise since this year's Welsh government elections. A combination of the UKIP and Tory vote was 1% less than Labour's in the WAG election but would certainly have risen with more support for UKIP at Labour's expense. Labour heartlands have less Plaid support than across Wales.
I still reckon around 75% across the UK sounds about right, dropping to maybe 60%-70% in Wales. That would be enough in Labour heartlands, with the combined Tory and UKIP votes to see a leave verdict.
Eric the Half a Bee
28-06-16, 20:03
What comes first as a Labour MP
1. Representing the constituents that elected you
or
2. Representing the Labour party members wishes
Because at the moment you cant seem to have both
There is a crossover where members are constituents. It's impossible to represent all constituents who vote for you as they'll have different views on certain things. I have no problem with MPs not agreeing with all policies set out by their parties. Party members have the opportunities to vote and shape the party but, again, there'll be MPs who disagree with somethings decided by members.
It's hardly a case of either/or.
UKIP's vote in Wales rose dramatically since 2011 and no doubt has continued to rise since this year's Welsh government elections. A combination of the UKIP and Tory vote was 1% less than Labour's in the WAG election but would certainly have risen with more support for UKIP at Labour's expense. Labour heartlands have less Plaid support than across Wales.
I still reckon around 75% across the UK sounds about right, dropping to maybe 60%-70% in Wales. That would be enough in Labour heartlands, with the combined Tory and UKIP votes to see a leave verdict.
The Labour heartlands aren't full of Labour thinking people though. That's our problem here. We have the Labour vote with the UKIP mindset.
Eric the Half a Bee
28-06-16, 20:45
The Labour heartlands aren't full of Labour thinking people though. That's our problem here. We have the Labour vote with the UKIP mindset.
There is that as well, coupled with a small desire to give Labour a bloody nose over the Welsh Government.
I think there's potential for Plaid to do well out of this referendum, especially if Scotland holds another independence vote and leaves the UK. Wales will be truly in the shit if we're reliant on a Tory government in Westminster and an ineffective Labour government at the Senedd for years. I believe Welsh people would ultimately prefer joining Scotland and a united Ireland in some Celtic coalition in the EU than being stranded on its own in the UK being strangled by England.
There is that as well, coupled with a small desire to give Labour a bloody nose over the Welsh Government.
I think there's potential for Plaid to do well out of this referendum, especially if Scotland holds another independence vote and leaves the UK. Wales will be truly in the shit if we're reliant on a Tory government in Westminster and an ineffective Labour government at the Senedd for years. I believe Welsh people would ultimately prefer joining Scotland and a united Ireland in some Celtic coalition in the EU than being stranded on its own in the UK being strangled by England.
I was also optimistic about this before last thursday. Time will tell, but I hope you are right.
Eric the Half a Bee
28-06-16, 20:52
I was also optimistic about this before last thursday. Time will tell, but I hope you are right.
You know my stance on Welsh independence but since the UK voted to leave the EU, I have reassessed my opinion somewhat, especially with murmurings of Scotland and Northern Ireland possibly leaving the UK at some point.
You know my stance on Welsh independence but since the UK voted to leave the EU, I have reassessed my opinion somewhat, especially with murmurings of Scotland and Northern Ireland possibly leaving the UK at some point.
Don't forget Gibraltar.
Eric the Half a Bee
28-06-16, 20:56
Don't forget Gibraltar.
I probably will once they've left.
Eric the Half a Bee
28-06-16, 21:08
Juncker has said that obviously any new countries wanting to join the EU MUST adopt the Euro and what's made it made worse for the remaining EU countries not in the Euro is that the EU commission has said now that the UK is leaving they must also put plans in place to join the Euro - it's part of the 5 presidents report that roadmaps the EU policy direction.
Given that - are you sure you still want an Independent Wales to join up ? just so you can get some EU money in return - Im not sure the rest of Wales would, but I may well be wrong.
It's more about sovereignty and not being controlled by England.
It's more about sovereignty and not being controlled by England.
This is true. By the time it comes around, the question might as well be:
What do you want to be:
1) Wales
2) West Anglia
Eric the Half a Bee
28-06-16, 22:07
This is true. By the time it comes around, the question might as well be:
What do you want to be:
1) Wales
2) West Anglia
:thumbup:
Actually, what the feck is going on here? We're supposed to argue about this at length!!!! :hehe:
:thumbup:
Actually, what the feck is going on here? We're supposed to argue about this at length!!!! :hehe:
seems circumstances have changed, and so have opinions.. (well, for one of us at least! :biggrin:)
Colonel Cærdiffi
28-06-16, 23:05
FACT: Cardiff was once in North Wales.
the other bob wilson
29-06-16, 03:37
After the recent uprising of the plebs during the referendum, the establishment must be terrified of Corbyn and he needs to be stopped, either by the Blue Tories or by the Red Tories. It's one man versus the whole political class who can smell trouble ahead.
This sort of thing baffles me. To vote Leave was to do what Murdoch and other owners of red top newspapers wanted you to do - they are establishment, not the revolutionaries you appear to think they are.
the other bob wilson
29-06-16, 03:42
I'm certain there will be a Labour leadership election once the PLP majority agree on one or more (probably one) anti-Corbyn candidates to put up against him.
Despite the constitutional arguments I'm fairly sure Corbyn will stand again.
Then it's down to the members and supporters. It will be a different type of election from last summer and I doubt Corbyn will be a first ballor winner (was 60%) like last time. There is massive resentment amongst the Labour electorate about the PLP coup - but also a fraying of the original Corbyn support, but as things stand now he is still favourite.
That may change if the big unions lose confidence in him. Publicly he still has their backing - but it sounds as if that may not be as clear cut behind closed doors.
It will turn into a leadership campaign about principle and pragmatism - who can best renew the Labour Party and reach out to lost and new supporters - and who can win.
Ordinarily, it would be principle over pragmatism every time for me, but, based on what I've seen over the past nine months, and especially during the referendum campaign, I don't think Corbyn is up to the job full stop. That's why I want him out, nothing to do with principles or pragmatism - he can't lead his party, let alone a Government
Corbyn is pretty much like Russell Slade most people knew that he ain't the right guy to deliver the goods from day one same has Ed Miliband....Labour better get it right this time or i can see them folding.
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