Come on politicans back May deal

[life on mars]

its not great , I honestly don't see Europe giving anyone a better deal, no matter what these "against the deal " politicians say ,they should stop playing selfish politics with such an important issue , some very unfortunate people who don't have the luxury or ease of wealth ,to see them through a no deal .

Shame on politicians for playing games with lives , none of you could negotiate anything very differently from this deal .

Labour could easily be brave , and get this done, if it didn't sniff a selfish reach for and election and power.

( Respect the vote ? be buggered , ironic yes )


People voted for a break, ( I didn't ) parliament doesn't agree ,so disrupts ?? lets not disturb democracy and its rights , however we agree or disagree with its outcome, we are where we are .

[Taunton Blue Genie]

its not great , I honestly don't see Europe giving anyone a better deal, no matter what these "against the deal " politicians say ,they should stop playing selfish politics with such an important issue , some very unfortunate people who don't have the luxury or ease of wealth ,to see them through a no deal .

Shame on politicians for playing games with lives , none of you could negotiate anything very differently from this deal .

Labour could easily be brave , and get this done, if it didn't sniff a selfish reach for and election and power.

( Respect the vote ? be buggered , ironic yes )


People voted for a break, ( I didn't ) parliament doesn't agree ,so disrupts ?? lets not disturb democracy and its rights , however we agree or disagree with its outcome, we are where we are .

I've yet to come across anyone who voted Brexit who knew the real consequences. And many of those who voted for it are not the type to keep themselves informed on a daily basis of the complexity that is unfolding. I didn't (ansd still don't like) the direction the EU is heading but the average person on the street was not well informed enough to have a sufficient understanding of what they were voting for and for what arrangement they expected at the end of it. That is not to say that an argument for Brexit is not valid but let's be honest and admit that the average person wasn't qualified to really weigh up all the pros and cons, me included. You only have to see the street vox pops on news programmes for people to reveal their incredible ignorance of the concepts and complexities involved. And presumably those who voted for Brexit wanted a hard Brexit as a halfway house didn't seem to be on the menu - so the latter option being promoted by the government is highly ironic. In short, no-one voted for that option.

[life on mars]

I've yet to come across anyone who voted Brexit who knew the real consequences. And many of those who voted for it are not the type to keep themselves informed on a daily basis of the complexity that is unfolding. I didn't (ansd still don't like) the direction the EU is heading but the average person on the street was not well informed enough to have a sufficient understanding of what they were voting for and for what arrangement they expected at the end of it. That is not to say that an argument for Brexit is not valid but let's be honest and admit that the average person wasn't qualified to really weigh up all the pros and cons, me included. You only have to see the street vox pops on news programmes for people to reveal their incredible ignorance of the concepts and complexities involved. And presumably those who voted for Brexit wanted a hard Brexit as a halfway house didn't seem to be on the menu - so the latter option being promoted by the government is highly ironic. In short, no-one voted for that option.

What is the option then ,surely a second vote would cause uproar and a generation of people to never vote gain ??

[Taunton Blue Genie]

What is the option then ,surely a second vote would cause uproar and a generation of people to never vote gain ??

It's not about 'a generation of people' possibly never voting again though - as it's not as if all the older generation voted for Brexit and the all the younger generation voted for Remain. And to proceed on a course of action that no-one voted for is quite perverse.

[life on mars]

It's not about 'a generation of people' possibly never voting again though - as it's not as if all the older generation voted for Brexit and the all the younger generation voted for Remain. And to proceed on a course of action that no-one voted for is quite perverse.

My point is around the reported many millions who don't usually register or vote who actual decided to do so in the EU referendum, hence the reported record 46.5million people who became motivated to vote or register to do so , surely many of those are likely to be lost , if this vote is ignored ,which could backlash actually more on Labour than the other parties ??

[Eric Cartman]

My point is around the reported many millions who don't usually register or vote who actual decided to do so in the EU referendum, hence the reported record 46.5million people who became motivated to vote or register to do so , surely many of those are likely to be lost , if this vote is ignored ,which could backlash actually more on Labour than the other parties ??

I would prefer our politicians to fight for what they believe in than support something they don't.

May's behaviour has been atrocious in this yet I notice you don't mention it. She is the ultimate game player, we could have known where we stood with regards to her deal before Christmas. She instead decided to use the looming threat of the deadline and no deal to force MPs to support something they disagree with. It doesn't look to have worked and she looks like an idiot now.

The ambiguity of the 2016 version of leave makes the next few months impossible without a clarification from the country. It is that or potentially something Norway-like, which will involve freedom of movement.

I am glad parliament have pushed back versus May because the UK was beginning to look like a banana republic dictatorship.

[lardy]

My point is around the reported many millions who don't usually register or vote who actual decided to do so in the EU referendum, hence the reported record 46.5million people who became motivated to vote or register to do so , surely many of those are likely to be lost , if this vote is ignored ,which could backlash actually more on Labour than the other parties ??

So about a third of them weren't motivated enough to actually vote in 2016.

[Wales-Bales]

So about a third of them weren't motivated enough to actually vote in 2016.
Not voting is also a democratic action, otherwise known as abstaining.

[Eric Cartman]

Does she even know when she is lying anymore?

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/theresa-now-lying-welsh-assembly-15673406

[the other bob wilson]

I would prefer our politicians to fight for what they believe in than support something they don't.

May's behaviour has been atrocious in this yet I notice you don't mention it. She is the ultimate game player, we could have known where we stood with regards to her deal before Christmas. She instead decided to use the looming threat of the deadline and no deal to force MPs to support something they disagree with. It doesn't look to have worked and she looks like an idiot now.

The ambiguity of the 2016 version of leave makes the next few months impossible without a clarification from the country. It is that or potentially something Norway-like, which will involve freedom of movement.

I am glad parliament have pushed back versus May because the UK was beginning to look like a banana republic dictatorship.

Let's not forget either that May had a majority large enough to be far more in control of things than she has been since the Conservative party decided we needed an election in 2017 - she was happy enough to see that election being portrayed a solely down to her at the time and she has to accept her share of the responsibility for her party's woeful campaign.

[the other bob wilson]

I've yet to come across anyone who voted Brexit who knew the real consequences. And many of those who voted for it are not the type to keep themselves informed on a daily basis of the complexity that is unfolding. I didn't (ansd still don't like) the direction the EU is heading but the average person on the street was not well informed enough to have a sufficient understanding of what they were voting for and for what arrangement they expected at the end of it. That is not to say that an argument for Brexit is not valid but let's be honest and admit that the average person wasn't qualified to really weigh up all the pros and cons, me included. You only have to see the street vox pops on news programmes for people to reveal their incredible ignorance of the concepts and complexities involved. And presumably those who voted for Brexit wanted a hard Brexit as a halfway house didn't seem to be on the menu - so the latter option being promoted by the government is highly ironic. In short, no-one voted for that option.

I agree with you, but I would also say that no one can blame "the man/woman in the street" for not understanding the basics, let alone the nuances, of the issues at stake when the guidance they were receiving from so many politicians from all parties (be they remainers or leavers) was so pathetic during the referendum campaign.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

I agree with you, but I would also say that no one can blame "the man/woman in the street" for not understanding the basics, let alone the nuances, of the issues at stake when the guidance they were receiving from so many politicians from all parties (be they remainers or leavers) was so pathetic during the referendum campaign.

I didn't apportion blame as that would have involved not just voters the flaws inherent in democracy, referenda and populism.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

I didn't apportion blame as that would have involved not just voters the flaws inherent in democracy, referenda and populism.

insert 'but also'

[the other bob wilson]

I didn't apportion blame as that would have involved not just voters the flaws inherent in democracy, referenda and populism.

Fair point :thumbup:.

[life on mars]

Well lots of anti Tory stuff ,what is the solution or plan if they are so useless ?

[Veg1960]

Well lots of anti Tory stuff ,what is the solution or plan if they are so useless ?

Perhaps you could clarify of the "lots of anti tory stuff" in this thread

[life on mars]

Perhaps you could clarify of the "lots of anti tory stuff" in this thread

Okay as I see it May is a Tory.

Anyway once again where is the depth of argument ,suggestions, proposal that brings to the table a different option that European leaders would agree too.

Besides May , is anyone able to bring forward a proposal that has viable where content and detail that appeals to all parties in the UK , and European leaders of 27 countries.

It's just political gesturing for personal gain .

[Veg1960]

Okay as I see it May is a Tory.

Anyway once again where is the depth of argument ,suggestions, proposal that brings to the table a different option that European leaders would agree too.

Besides May , is anyone able to bring forward a proposal that has viable where content and detail that appeals to all parties in the UK , and European leaders of 27 countries.

It's just political gesturing for personal gain .

That attack on May was not an attack on her as a tory, it was an attack on her as a person.

She is calling any attempt to frustrate the result of a referendum an affront to democracy, while having a history of doing precisely that herself.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Okay as I see it May is a Tory.

Anyway once again where is the depth of argument ,suggestions, proposal that brings to the table a different option that European leaders would agree too.

Besides May , is anyone able to bring forward a proposal that has viable where content and detail that appeals to all parties in the UK , and European leaders of 27 countries.

It's just political gesturing for personal gain .

I think you are missing the point. The reason why many of her own party is rejecting her deal is because it is inconsistent with what many Brexiteers voted for in the first place -as would any other compromise be.

[Heathblue]

I would prefer our politicians to fight for what they believe in than support something they don't.

May's behaviour has been atrocious in this yet I notice you don't mention it. She is the ultimate game player, we could have known where we stood with regards to her deal before Christmas. She instead decided to use the looming threat of the deadline and no deal to force MPs to support something they disagree with. It doesn't look to have worked and she looks like an idiot now.

The ambiguity of the 2016 version of leave makes the next few months impossible without a clarification from the country. It is that or potentially something Norway-like, which will involve freedom of movement.

I am glad parliament have pushed back versus May because the UK was beginning to look like a banana republic dictatorship.

I've been eligible to vote since 1979, she for me has been;

a) the most appalling PM during my time
b) is just playing out an agreement with the real rulers to run the clock down


I understand the withdrawal agreement, if that no agreement, the UK crashes out on WTO, but just do not see this happening irrespective whatever the agreement says/implies. Corbyn isn't getting off lightly either, what a spineless opposition leader.

TRUMP / CLINTON

MAY / CORBYN

Mackay/Warnock

What a time to be alive!!!.

[Eric Cartman]

Okay as I see it May is a Tory.

Anyway once again where is the depth of argument ,suggestions, proposal that brings to the table a different option that European leaders would agree too.

Besides May , is anyone able to bring forward a proposal that has viable where content and detail that appeals to all parties in the UK , and European leaders of 27 countries.

It's just political gesturing for personal gain .

It's your birthday, no one has bought you a cake so I stick a candle in a turd and bring it round to cheer you up, would you eat it?

The polls are pretty clear, the country doesn't want May's deal. Surely MP's (and our delightful PM) have a duty to reflect upon that and try to find another way, or did the will of the people only matter once?

[life on mars]

It's your birthday, no one has bought you a cake so I stick a candle in a turd and bring it round to cheer you up, would you eat it?

The polls are pretty clear, the country doesn't want May's deal. Surely MP's (and our delightful PM) have a duty to reflect upon that and try to find another way, or did the will of the people only matter once?

I get all that , but who , and how , and what, will deliver a better or alternative deal ,again do you or do you know of anyone with any detail .

It's like ducking groundhog day ,you have to surely offer an alternative.

How do you know its my birthday, you outside my house , if so i'm off out there now

[Eric Cartman]

I get all that , but who , and how , and what, will deliver a better or alternative deal ,again do you or do you know of anyone with any detail .

It's like ducking groundhog day ,you have to surely offer an alternative.

How do you know its my birthday, you outside my house , if so i'm off out there now

You are completely missing the point. The polls suggest that the country would rather no deal or remain than go through with this deal.

There are a few viable alternatives if May's red lines are taken out of the equation, all are worse than remaining so it certainly isn't a remainers job to describe the alternative. None offer the unicorns promised during the campaign.

Brexiteers don't want it, remainers don't want it, doesn't look like parliament doesn't want it. Only May, a minority of the house and 20% of the country want this deal so why do it?

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Naff off may , you tried to destroy the Labour party when the polls were riding high , now sod off

[life on mars]

You are completely missing the point. The polls suggest that the country would rather no deal or remain than go through with this deal.

There are a few viable alternatives if May's red lines are taken out of the equation, all are worse than remaining so it certainly isn't a remainers job to describe the alternative. None offer the unicorns promised during the campaign.

Brexiteers don't want it, remainers don't want it, doesn't look like parliament doesn't want it. Only May, a minority of the house and 20% of the country want this deal so why do it?

I get all that ,however I truly believe whoever takes this on its going to run into 27 member states not likely to give us what we want ,I'm sure for example staying in the customer union and ,free movement is a red line if you take Turkey for example they have a second rate customs union ,it doesn't stop or solve border controls though like NI , free movement is also a redline for a lot of people not just the current lady ??

I just red these anti May conversations and I get it its not a great deal ,but where is the other detail of someone's else's deal ?


Simply shouting : "stand down or away" , "let someone else negotiate this deal " , "we need a general election" , "we need a second referendum" is so easy and simple , for the last time I simply want to see or here an alternative details proposition, surely a group of ell meaning/caring MP's could pull one together and slap it in front of May and publish it in the media , my bet is they scared it would receive the same vitriol and criticism .

Your bright enough to know they would rather just fire vitriol and criticism, as did the leave campaign , so they can meet their narrow political agenda.

[cyril evans awaydays]

I get all that ,however I truly believe whoever takes this on its going to run into 27 member states not likely to give us what we want ,I'm sure for example staying in the customer union and ,free movement is a red line if you take Turkey for example they have a second rate customs union ,it doesn't stop or solve border controls though like NI , free movement is also a redline for a lot of people not just the current lady ??

I just red these anti May conversations and I get it its not a great deal ,but where is the other detail of someone's else's deal ?


Simply shouting : "stand down or away" , "let someone else negotiate this deal " , "we need a general election" , "we need a second referendum" is so easy and simple , for the last time I simply want to see or here an alternative details proposition, surely a group of ell meaning/caring MP's could pull one together and slap it in front of May and publish it in the media , my bet is they scared it would receive the same vitriol and criticism .

Your bright enough to know they would rather just fire vitriol and criticism, as did the leave campaign , so they can meet their narrow political agenda.

There are adult politicians trying to identify outcomes that will command a majority of the democratically elected parliament. It seems like others wish to follow their narrow political agenda and reject this path. From the Sun's Tom Newton Dunn reporting on the outcome of May's Cabinet meeting this morning.

I hear the PM just told Cabinet she will push on with her Brexit deal, no matter the size of tonight's defeat, as "it’s the only option". A big push from Rudd/Clark/Gauke/Perry to open talks with moderate Labour MPs, but rejected by Hunt/Javid/Fox/Lewis/Truss/Williamson. Also: Greg Clark pushed the PM hard to formally rule out No Deal if the vote is lost, citing the “devastating” effect it would have on the car industry. She gave no firm reply. Most striking contribution in Cabinet came from Brandon Lewis, someone in the room tells me. Tory chairman came down very hard on opening talks with Labour: “The party wouldn’t wear it,” he said.

A room full of people running the government putting Party before country led by someone obstinately pushing something that barely half of one political party in the UK believes in! Still I am sure you will be able to find someone other than the government of the day to blame for this shambles!

[life on mars]

There are adult politicians trying to identify outcomes that will command a majority of the democratically elected parliament. It seems like others wish to follow their narrow political agenda and reject this path. From the Sun's Tom Newton Dunn reporting on the outcome of May's Cabinet meeting this morning.

I hear the PM just told Cabinet she will push on with her Brexit deal, no matter the size of tonight's defeat, as "it’s the only option". A big push from Rudd/Clark/Gauke/Perry to open talks with moderate Labour MPs, but rejected by Hunt/Javid/Fox/Lewis/Truss/Williamson. Also: Greg Clark pushed the PM hard to formally rule out No Deal if the vote is lost, citing the “devastating” effect it would have on the car industry. She gave no firm reply. Most striking contribution in Cabinet came from Brandon Lewis, someone in the room tells me. Tory chairman came down very hard on opening talks with Labour: “The party wouldn’t wear it,” he said.

A room full of people running the government putting Party before country led by someone obstinately pushing something that barely half of one political party in the UK believes in! Still I am sure you will be able to find someone other than the government of the day to blame for this shambles!

You are forgetting the prime mover in all this 27 European Countries who have no reason to provide us with a lovely deal ,whatever your political allegiances are ,why would they do it , whilst they can squeeze the pips and get us to reverse this decision they will ,they have done on three separate occasions .

[cyril evans awaydays]

You are forgetting the prime mover in all this 27 European Countries who have no reason to provide us with a lovely deal ,whatever your political allegiances are ,why would they do it , whilst they can squeeze the pips and get us to reverse this decision they will ,they have done on three separate occasions .

No idea what you mean by the EU member states being the prime movers in this, but then that won't be the first time I have failed to grasp the point you were making. For what it is worth I think a number of member states are getting pretty ambivalent about the UK remaining part of the EU. What is obvious is that the EU will not negotiate a future trade deal that gives the UK a competitive advantage, quite the opposite. Why would they?

[Wales-Bales]

She only lost by 230 votes. Can we have another vote, just to make certain it's what the MP's really wanted?

[Heathblue]

She only lost by 230 votes, can we have a 2nd vote?

Can we have 2 years + to debate it ?

[Eric Cartman]

She only lost by 230 votes. Can we have another vote, just to make certain it's what the MP's really wanted?

You might be in luck

[life on mars]

Nice sterling earner tonight .

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Nice sterling earner tonight .

The BBC website states "Sterling rose 0.1% to $1.289 after declines of more than 1% earlier in the day."

[life on mars]

The BBC website states "Sterling rose 0.1% to $1.289 after declines of more than 1% earlier in the day."

Yes,indeed, nice time for Forex trading ,best to follow these trends than daft political comments , and its far more rewarding .

[Eric the Half a Bee]

I honestly don't see Europe giving anyone a better deal

They aren't the ones giving us a deal. We are the ones leaving, so we need to be the ones putting forward the proposals and it's up to the EU to say what can and can't be done.

[jamieccfc]

What a fecking mess, we have no hope with any of those tossers in charge

[lardy]

As one of the clever beans on the ccmb politics forum likes to tell us, this is all part of Mays plan to stop brexit. The sacrifices she'll make, eh?

[Eric the Half a Bee]

I've been looking at the manifestos of the official leave campaign and those of leave.eu and voteleavetakecontrol.

All of them propose to have some sort of deal with the EU. Those who reckon that no-deal is really what leave voters voted for are talking bollocks, because no-deal was never proposed. Varying degrees of deal were.

[life on mars]

I've been looking at the manifestos of the official leave campaign and those of leave.eu and voteleavetakecontrol.

All of them propose to have some sort of deal with the EU. Those who reckon that no-deal is really what leave voters voted for are talking bollocks, because no-deal was never proposed. Varying degrees of deal were.

Hence the rise in the pound tonight ,as the prospect of no deal was kicked into the long grass,nothing has changed really, were just going to go around and around until someone falls off or everyone dies of boredom.

Or perhaps this was the long game anyway, get right up to the end of March , have this huge majority of MP's vote against this agreement , and see if Europe blinks, who knows ,well the money traders do I guess ?

[Taunton Blue Genie]

I've been looking at the manifestos of the official leave campaign and those of leave.eu and voteleavetakecontrol.

All of them propose to have some sort of deal with the EU. Those who reckon that no-deal is really what leave voters voted for are talking bollocks, because no-deal was never proposed. Varying degrees of deal were.
The question on the ballot paper was "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?" though - and it wasn't nuanced by any particular political party's spin on it.
It wasn't a general election so the electorate were not voting for a party manifesto.

[Heathblue]

The question on the ballot paper was "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?" though - and it wasn't nuanced by any particular political party's spin on it.
It wasn't a general election so the electorate were not voting for a party manifesto.

What was the question on the ballot paper to enter, did everyone know what they were voting for ? was it nuanced by Ted Heath's spin ? was it a general election or a party manifesto, did the youngsters of the day get a chance to vote on their future ?

[Taunton Blue Genie]

What was the question on the ballot paper to enter, did everyone know what they were voting for ? was it nuanced by Ted Heath's spin ? was it a general election or a party manifesto, did the youngsters of the day get a chance to vote on their future ?

The question on the 1975 ballot paper was:

"Do you think that the United Kingdom should stay in the European Community (The Common Market?"
The question was therefore not nuanced or qualified by any political party's spin and was not therefore part of a party manifesto.
As for your question about youngsters, the voting age was the same as it is now.
For the record, the vote was 70% to 30%.
As for people possibly not knowing what they were really voting for, quite possibly they didn't understand the complexity and full ramifications. That was my first visiot to the ballot box so I have some memory of it albeit hazy.

[life on mars]

The question on the 1975 ballot paper was:

"Do you think that the United Kingdom should stay in the European Community (The Common Market?"
The question was therefore not nuanced or qualified by any political party's spin and was not therefore part of a party manifesto.
As for your question about youngsters, the voting age was the same as it is now.
For the record, the vote was 70% to 30%.
As for people possibly not knowing what they were really voting for, quite possibly they didn't understand the complexity and full ramifications. That was my first visiot to the ballot box so I have some memory of it albeit hazy.

All I can remember , no one in Llanrumney liked that posh talking Ted yachting ,MP chap , we had are own posh Jim of the Callaghan who had no Yacht though , however he never looked at ease at Countisbury Avenue Shops , if that helps 😏

[cyril evans awaydays]

Hence the rise in the pound tonight ,as the prospect of no deal was kicked into the long grass,nothing has changed really, were just going to go around and around until someone falls off or everyone dies of boredom.

Or perhaps this was the long game anyway, get right up to the end of March , have this huge majority of MP's vote against this agreement , and see if Europe blinks, who knows ,well the money traders do I guess ?

So "No Deal" is simultaneously kicked into the long grass and taken to the brink?

I see this morning's version of putting the country above a narrow political agenda involves May's commitment to speak to members of other political parties but not the Leader of the Opposition and set a series of red lines that immediately rule out some of the alternative options proposed to dig us out of the mess she created.

You would have thought last night's vote would have made the architects of this shambles, chastened not emboldened but it appears that a combination of intransigence, incompetence and petty party politicking is still the modus operandi of this government.

[the other bob wilson]

As someone who has voted Labour in about 90% of the elections I've been eligible to take part in, can I say that the attitude of Richard Burgon here shows why it's likely that we'll still end up with a Tory Government even if Labour gets the General Election that it's so desperate for - his comments are completely inappropriate for the situation the country finds itself in.

https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1085302626349142016

[Heathblue]

The question on the 1975 ballot paper was:

"Do you think that the United Kingdom should stay in the European Community (The Common Market?"
The question was therefore not nuanced or qualified by any political party's spin and was not therefore part of a party manifesto.
As for your question about youngsters, the voting age was the same as it is now.
For the record, the vote was 70% to 30%.
As for people possibly not knowing what they were really voting for, quite possibly they didn't understand the complexity and full ramifications. That was my first visiot to the ballot box so I have some memory of it albeit hazy.

Did we join in 1975 ?

[rs3100]

The way I see it is this:

The referendum was advisory, and the public advised parliament that they wanted to leave the EU.
It's now down to parliament to sort this out. As a representative democracy, with the majority being remainers, the MPs had the right to just say "nah! you don't know what you're talking about, we're going to ignore you" but that would be political suicide, however as it's their duty to do what they believe is best for the country they could have done that.
So they have to fashion a way out of the EU. We have to remember now that the majority of MPs are remainers, a proportion of the Brexiteers will be for some sort of deal, and a proportion of Brexiteers will be for a hard Brexit no deal.
The EU have set their stall out from day 1 - to have a customs union there must be freedom of movement (goods, people, services, and capital), Teresa May has said no to these, so no real deal will be available, it's either no deal, brexit in name only, or no brexit.
Teresa May went for the Brexit in name only option which didn't suit anyone and resulted in last nights historic defeat.

The choices now are No deal and no Brexit.

The majority of MPs see no deal as disastrous for the country and will do everything that they can to avoid it. Which, unless another deal can be agreed and passed, leaves No Brexit.
Parliament can withdraw A50 without going back to the people if they so wished - again though political suicide, so a second vote is the only way (options really can only be no deal or no Brexit). None of this is undemocratic, as said by many.

As parliament is representative, those representatives don't have to follow the wishes of the people.

When the referendum was called the government should have had a plan in place at that point.
When the result was announced the government should have put in place a cross party plan and worked on all of this prior to triggering A50.
But neither of these happened. The main people who instigated this (Cameron, Gove, Johnson etc...) disappeared and left it up to others to pick up the pieces. May has been in a difficult position (anyone would have been) but she had done herself no favours with her pig headed attitude and incompetence.

As an aside a lot (not all) of the reasons that people voted out and blamed the EU for were not actually the EU's fault, often the UK government had it in their power to sort things out but didn't do so.

[lardy]

As an aside a lot (not all) of the reasons that people voted out and blamed the EU for were not actually the EU's fault, often the UK government had it in their power to sort things out but didn't do so.

So many people don't know this.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Did we join in 1975 ?

The decision to join the EEC was taken by Edward Heath’s government in 197 but Labour’s manifesto promised a referendum on Britain’s ongoing membership.

[life on mars]

So "No Deal" is simultaneously kicked into the long grass and taken to the brink?

I see this morning's version of putting the country above a narrow political agenda involves May's commitment to speak to members of other political parties but not the Leader of the Opposition and set a series of red lines that immediately rule out some of the alternative options proposed to dig us out of the mess she created.

You would have thought last night's vote would have made the architects of this shambles, chastened not emboldened but it appears that a combination of intransigence, incompetence and petty party politicking is still the modus operandi of this government.

not just his government

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Something I was unaware of until last week was the decision made by the Labour government in respect of not imposing a transition period in respect of migrant workers from the 10 new EU member states in 2004 (8 of those member states being the former Eastern bloc countries).
Only Britain, Sweden and Ireland took this course of action and the other 12 existing member states chose to impose controls.
The Labour party took advice from the Home Office, which hugely underestimated the numbers coming in to a shoicking degree.
Had the UK government opted to have the transition period concerned it could possibly be that UKIP would not have garnered the same degree of the support they had in the years prior to the referendum and that Cameron would have not taken the action that he inadvisably did and that the Brexit vote tipping point may not have been reached.

[Wales-Bales]

The way I see it is this:

The referendum was advisory, and the public advised parliament that they wanted to leave the EU.
You appear to be rewriting history!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUsKWsPcRXE

[Wales-Bales]

As one of the clever beans on the ccmb politics forum likes to tell us, this is all part of Mays plan to stop brexit. The sacrifices she'll make, eh?
Is an indefinite backstop one of these sacrifices? Was two years of negotiation to put us is a worse situation one of these sacrifices?

[Auntie Andy]

Jonathon Pie nails it.

http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ae5t1CZFCU8

[life on mars]

It's getting complicated now and hard to follow :

It's my deal or no deal.
It's my deal or no deal
It's my deal or no deal
It's my deal or no deal


The people need a general election .
The people need a general election .
The people need a general election .
The people need a general election .

Let's have a vote of confidence.
Let's have a vote of confidence.
Let's have a vote of confidence.
Let's have a vote of confidence.

Complex stuff this.

[Heathblue]

The decision to join the EEC was taken by Edward Heath’s government in 197 but Labour’s manifesto promised a referendum on Britain’s ongoing membership.

Argh I see, so a government joined the UK into an EEC with no democratic vote of the people, my hunch was right :xmasthumbup: it wasn't 197 however :hehe: so those, who due to a ballot to get out of something that they were never afforded the opportunity to decide if they wanted in, are subjected to internet bullies and badged with, insert whatever ist you want, it’s a bike like all Cardiff City fans getting called hooligans due to a minority I spose, when the referendum took place in 1975 and (I was only 14 at this time, and 12 when we went in, so had to accept the 70% majority as deciding my future) and with no second election called for or offered I guess due to democracy!!!, that the future (political union), (overriding laws), (European army), (trade agreements) was obviously disclosed so that the voters had all the facts of future intention, since this period the UK also joined the ERM, sold its Gold reserves although I would guess that much of this was stolen anyway, taken part in two absolutely needless wars with terrible loss of life for 1000’s of you men all sides, and all without the requirement for a vote, yet when the country does have a vote, the minority cannot accept it and revert to internet doxing as their only means of debate, he’s a wracist, he’s a little Englander, he’s a xenophobe et al. he’s thick and don’t have a clue etc. etc. Like many I thought Colin was foolish in his outburst (not because of it) but because as far as I’m aware, he was in the CCS being interviewed after a game (praps he was in his house!!) and that his views could be represented as the views of the club, it’s too late in life for it to worry me either in or out but of course worry about all aspects of like for my children and grandchildren, one of my kids was a firm remainer, and one was a couldn’t give a Donald duck, they never argued/debated about it, although not voting I was always aligned to exit, but when the chips were down, and can remember this as if it were yesterday, stopped outside the school and said to the wife, f**k it and we went shopping to Lidl instead which was another 400 yards or so down the road, I like all the arguing about it and I like to troll a bit, hate SI units, clearly remember getting decimal coins in my change on the morning of metrification, the line of work that I do, the EU adds next to nothing but bureaucracy, I’m sure it adds value to many occupations/professions, walking into a factory in 1978 was a bit of an eye opener and a dangerous environment for a 17/18 year old, this has changed for the better under EU legislation, in March I will be out of the country on the day!!, not the EU, but using my new EU passport, I’m just a placid softy really but do dislike the bully boy antics of the mob on here, don’t know personally, but like and admire the manner in which WB calmly deals with the key board mob, having spent over 40 years at varying intervals going away watching the City and the antics that sometimes accompany the trips, I often wonder when did the fan base join the god squad to trash their own on social media because they decided no instead of yes, the lessons from Trump and Brexit need to be learned quickly, and that is, call your own trash and thick, they will have the final say in a place where the bully cannot be heard, if this lesson isn’t taken on board, the likes of Trump and the Tories will dominate the future, anyway I am still of the opinion by hook or by crook the UK will remain in the EU and that will be fine and dandy for me, there will always be winners and losers, and will also provide the opportunity to troll the brexiters (the serious ones) in old money, basically just a shit stirrer who plays on both sides of the net. Final word!!, when I get home from work usually 18.00/18.30 ish always sit down with the wife to have tea and have the BBC news on to catch up with events, tonight they were live in the commons with the debate of no confidence in Treason May, I would gladly kick Gove over the barrier of the seven bridge but IMO, he absolutely trounced his opposition and I thought he was making his play for their leadership, Labour has to sort it out to be a credible opposition, Corbyn was a rabbit in the headlights who’s lack of leadership exposed, he has the bias of press also to contend with, the party love in with him has got to give, I think that Labour will be on the opposition benches until he is replaced. Even after this total f**k up of Brexit lasting circa two years, I still see the Tories winning a future election, he will not be trusted by the electorate, the press will ensure it.

[Eric Cartman]

https://twitter.com/jrmaidment/status/1085907970691555328

[life on mars]

https://twitter.com/jrmaidment/status/1085907970691555328

Yes pretty close to the mark