View Full Version : Starting them very young.
the other bob wilson
11-06-19, 10:50
I see from this that City have Under 7 and Under 8 teams. Whatever one's thoughts about the legitimacy of a professional club running teams at that age and our Academy's complete failure to produce first team footballers (or, to be more accurate, first team footballers for Cardiff City), it must have been a great thrill for all those youngsters to play a game at Cardiff City Stadium - best of luck to all of them in the coming years.
https://www.cardiffcityfc.co.uk/news/2019/june/academy--our-newest-bluebirds/
But would they beat the women's world cup winners?
But would they beat the women's world cup winners?
They'd batter them, those 7 year olds would be smashing into tackles, there would be broken bones and everything, I'd love it...
They'd batter them, those 7 year olds would be smashing into tackles, there would be broken bones and everything, I'd love it...
:hehe:
Croesy Blue
11-06-19, 11:36
They'd batter them, those 7 year olds would be smashing into tackles, there would be broken bones and everything, I'd love it...
:hehe:
Croesy Blue
11-06-19, 11:37
I see from this that City have Under 7 and Under 8 teams. Whatever one's thoughts about the legitimacy of a professional club running teams at that age and our Academy's complete failure to produce first team footballers (or, to be more accurate, first team footballers for Cardiff City), it must have been a great thrill for all those youngsters to play a game at Cardiff City Stadium - best of luck to all of them in the coming years.
https://www.cardiffcityfc.co.uk/news/2019/june/academy--our-newest-bluebirds/
Is it easy to spot if a 7 year old is a good footballer? Or is it just pick anyoneand hope for the best?
They'd batter them, those 7 year olds would be smashing into tackles, there would be broken bones and everything, I'd love it...
:hehe:
I see from this that City have Under 7 and Under 8 teams. Whatever one's thoughts about the legitimacy of a professional club running teams at that age and our Academy's complete failure to produce first team footballers (or, to be more accurate, first team footballers for Cardiff City), it must have been a great thrill for all those youngsters to play a game at Cardiff City Stadium - best of luck to all of them in the coming years.
https://www.cardiffcityfc.co.uk/news/2019/june/academy--our-newest-bluebirds/
I'm in 2 minds when it comes to the academies that Cardiff City run for these age groups. Firstly they run one up by me and they seem very expensive per term. I then know of parents who go to the trials and the re-selection days and see it as a real achievement to get asked back. At 7 I don't really know if i approve of this type of pressured selection process for sport. I worry that at that age it should be about enjoyment. I also worry about the issue of a 7 year old specialising in football becoming a jaded teenager. There are lots of reports coming out in coaching that a multi sports approach is better for creating a well rounded sporting adult.
That being said the positive is the fact that we are not seeing lots of Junior academies sprouting up through the region where a better quality of coaching is being offered than the norm, and that is a good thing.
life on mars
11-06-19, 13:24
:hehe:
I reckon even Manuuuure would beat those little tykes
life on mars
11-06-19, 13:27
I see from this that City have Under 7 and Under 8 teams. Whatever one's thoughts about the legitimacy of a professional club running teams at that age and our Academy's complete failure to produce first team footballers (or, to be more accurate, first team footballers for Cardiff City), it must have been a great thrill for all those youngsters to play a game at Cardiff City Stadium - best of luck to all of them in the coming years.
https://www.cardiffcityfc.co.uk/news/2019/june/academy--our-newest-bluebirds/
My immediate thought is a simple one , if other successful team apply those same structures so should we, its a competitive sport ,and activity that builds development into youngsters ,far better than having them watching TV .
mazadona10
11-06-19, 14:22
I don't know a great deal about academies but do believe that there should be ages and number restrictions teams are allowed to have in accadamies.
I think 6 is too young really and maybe 9 would be a better age just keep them at local clubs until then .
at that age, the academies are cash cows, nothing more, nothing less, The parents know it, but they still go on the of chance that little johnny is in that 1 or 2 % of them that make it in the game, and why shouldnt they, if they can afford it, chasing that dream costs big money
We have a Southampton one in Bath, certain nights of the week the pitches are full at the STV with Southampton, I got chatting to a coach about the sheer numbers of kids who are involved and how i bet a very small % will make it, he laughed and said " but look at them ( pointing at the parents ) they all love it "
I'm in 2 minds when it comes to the academies that Cardiff City run for these age groups. Firstly they run one up by me and they seem very expensive per term. I then know of parents who go to the trials and the re-selection days and see it as a real achievement to get asked back. At 7 I don't really know if i approve of this type of pressured selection process for sport. I worry that at that age it should be about enjoyment. I also worry about the issue of a 7 year old specialising in football becoming a jaded teenager. There are lots of reports coming out in coaching that a multi sports approach is better for creating a well rounded sporting adult.
That being said the positive is the fact that we are not seeing lots of Junior academies sprouting up through the region where a better quality of coaching is being offered than the norm, and that is a good thing.
What a good post, you focus on the wellbeing of the child and into their teenage years and adult years. These things seem to be paid out of the parents pockets, theoretically subsidising very well off clubs, even if the clubs break even on these academies for kids of these ages but discover one kid that plays in the first team and is shifted on for 20 million every ten years then it's win, win. It's also a way of keeping these kids away from other clubs in the hope that they develop, a bit like you see in supermarkets when the food is reduced, there's always the greedy bastards hoovering up the cheap food and they never look hungry to me, makes me wonder why they do it. Maybe it's to stop anyone else getting their hands on the produce, even if they end up discarding it. I'd say that these football factories for 7 year olds are pretty similar, the kids are eaten up in a metaphorical sense.
i have read this thread with great interest .My lad was taken on at 7 years old and like those in the report signed for a year .
Just to point out don't mix an academy with a development centre like one or two are doing here .
Yes kids do get spotted at 6 and 7 years old and get invited to trials and they pick a squad of 16 at the start of the season . Not all kids make it the full season either even at that age . The debate is , is it too young to sign for a pro club at that age . I say an emphatic YES .
The kids get taken out of local football and expected to train at least twice a week with games on Sunday .I,m all for pro clubs taking on kids that age but not taken out of local clubs as the figure is now less than 1 per cent with actually go on to make it at pro level
out of the 16 kids at my lads age not 1 made it to pro level , and only looking at some photos last week only 4 of them still play football at some kind of level . when you look at thousands upon thousands of kids go through this process in the UK I have come to the conclusion it's a mugs game
the other bob wilson
11-06-19, 15:57
i have read this thread with great interest .My lad was taken on at 7 years old and like those in the report signed for a year .
Just to point out don't mix an academy with a development centre like one or two are doing here .
Yes kids do get spotted at 6 and 7 years old and get invited to trials and they pick a squad of 16 at the start of the season . Not all kids make it the full season either even at that age . The debate is , is it too young to sign for a pro club at that age . I say an emphatic YES .
The kids get taken out of local football and expected to train at least twice a week with games on Sunday .I,m all for pro clubs taking on kids that age but not taken out of local clubs as the figure is now less than 1 per cent with actually go on to make it at pro level
out of the 16 kids at my lads age not 1 made it to pro level , and only looking at some photos last week only 4 of them still play football at some kind of level . when you look at thousands upon thousands of kids go through this process in the UK I have come to the conclusion it's a mugs game
I tend to agree with you Mozzer - shouldn't football just be about enjoying the game up until the age of ten at least?
That said, as has been mentioned already, it only needs one to break into the first team or earn a team millions of pounds in a transfer for the clubs to claim their approach is working and, leaving City out of it for now, this is what the current system manages to do for most of them.
The subject of players who do not like the game is one that comes up with increasing frequency (Danny Gabbidon was saying Bobby Zamora was no great fan of football on the Elis James podcast only a week or two ago) in online discussions and, looking at what now seems to be the typical route to becoming a pro footballer, I can imagine there are plenty who are heartily sick of the game by the time they finish with it.
I tend to agree with you Mozzer - shouldn't football just be about enjoying the game up until the age of ten at least?
That said, as has been mentioned already, it only needs one to break into the first team or earn a team millions of pounds in a transfer for the clubs to claim their approach is working and, leaving City out of it for now, this is what the current system manages to do for most of them.
The subject of players who do not like the game is one that comes up with increasing frequency (Danny Gabbidon was saying Bobby Zamora was no great fan of football on the Elis James podcast only a week or two ago) in online discussions and, looking at what now seems to be the typical route to becoming a pro footballer, I can imagine there are plenty who are heartily sick of the game by the time they finish with it.
The thing is, Once you're involved at professional level it becomes a job, and the enjoyment goes with it. I can only go on my limited experiences, i hated the whole process, i was completely out for myself, i didn't give a **** if we lost as long as i played well, if i wasn't in the team then i wanted the team to lose or atleast the player in my position to have a stinker, they were my competition and i wanted them to fail. It's not a nice environment.
at that age, the academies are cash cows, nothing more, nothing less, The parents know it, but they still go on the of chance that little johnny is in that 1 or 2 % of them that make it in the game, and why shouldnt they, if they can afford it, chasing that dream costs big money
We have a Southampton one in Bath, certain nights of the week the pitches are full at the STV with Southampton, I got chatting to a coach about the sheer numbers of kids who are involved and how i bet a very small % will make it, he laughed and said " but look at them ( pointing at the parents ) they all love it "
It's bad it distracts the kids, they get cocky and don't pay attention in lessons because they are going to be a footballer, ten years later they miss out on University and other options often and face the reality that they weren't really that good and they've failed!
Obviously, not everyone, but I've seen it happen to a few, and as above it's often the parents that really want it more than the kids.
Personally, I hope my Grandkids are half decent and enjoy football for fun, rather than be excellent but not good enough!
i have read this thread with great interest .My lad was taken on at 7 years old and like those in the report signed for a year .
Just to point out don't mix an academy with a development centre like one or two are doing here .
Yes kids do get spotted at 6 and 7 years old and get invited to trials and they pick a squad of 16 at the start of the season . Not all kids make it the full season either even at that age . The debate is , is it too young to sign for a pro club at that age . I say an emphatic YES .
The kids get taken out of local football and expected to train at least twice a week with games on Sunday .I,m all for pro clubs taking on kids that age but not taken out of local clubs as the figure is now less than 1 per cent with actually go on to make it at pro level
out of the 16 kids at my lads age not 1 made it to pro level , and only looking at some photos last week only 4 of them still play football at some kind of level . when you look at thousands upon thousands of kids go through this process in the UK I have come to the conclusion it's a mugs game
It makes perfect sense, a few of my mates had boys in the Cardiff academies, one got kicked out at about 12, the other who was tipped for great things at about 15 or 16 before the chance to sign the first Dad was not too bad, but the second one was gutted!
LeningradCowboy
11-06-19, 16:23
I remember reading somewhere that most of the kids who are picked for these teams have early birthdays, which means they are likely to be bigger and stronger than the rest of their age group.
I'm in 2 minds when it comes to the academies that Cardiff City run for these age groups. Firstly they run one up by me and they seem very expensive per term. I then know of parents who go to the trials and the re-selection days and see it as a real achievement to get asked back. At 7 I don't really know if i approve of this type of pressured selection process for sport. I worry that at that age it should be about enjoyment. I also worry about the issue of a 7 year old specialising in football becoming a jaded teenager. There are lots of reports coming out in coaching that a multi sports approach is better for creating a well rounded sporting adult.
That being said the positive is the fact that we are not seeing lots of Junior academies sprouting up through the region where a better quality of coaching is being offered than the norm, and that is a good thing.
Agreed I didn't read this before replying earlier but feel the same, it's only a great thing if you're Ramsey or Bale, otherwise, you get sucked in and spat back out!
It's bad it distracts the kids, they get cocky and don't pay attention in lessons because they are going to be a footballer, ten years later they miss out on University and other options often and face the reality that they weren't really that good and they've failed!
Obviously, not everyone, but I've seen it happen to a few, and as above it's often the parents that really want it more than the kids.
Personally, I hope my Grandkids are half decent and enjoy football for fun, rather than be excellent but not good enough!
Having just finished my Football coach lv 1 badge, The English FA really are trying to get back to the fun side of grassroots football, the course was very heavy on putting the fun back into the game
I'm in 2 minds when it comes to the academies that Cardiff City run for these age groups. Firstly they run one up by me and they seem very expensive per term. I then know of parents who go to the trials and the re-selection days and see it as a real achievement to get asked back. At 7 I don't really know if i approve of this type of pressured selection process for sport. I worry that at that age it should be about enjoyment. I also worry about the issue of a 7 year old specialising in football becoming a jaded teenager. There are lots of reports coming out in coaching that a multi sports approach is better for creating a well rounded sporting adult.
That being said the positive is the fact that we are not seeing lots of Junior academies sprouting up through the region where a better quality of coaching is being offered than the norm, and that is a good thing.
After a tournament at Llanrumney, a Cardiff City scout approached my Grandson’s father who is also his Teams coach saying they wanted him to join Cardiff Cities Academy. The scout was apparently taken back when my son in law told him that he was too young at 7years of age and to come back in two years if they still want him.He wanted him to continue to play with his mates for a couple more years. He didn’t tell my Grandson of the approach because as a Cardiff City season ticket holder he would have been gutted!
However,I agreed that he was too young and as my son in law is a qualified FAW coach who has played as a schoolboy at Wembley and who was an Academy Player himself he knows the disappointment of not making it as a Professional and wants his son to enjoys his first couple of years as a Team Player.
Harry Paget Flashman
11-06-19, 20:47
After a tournament at Llanrumney, a Cardiff City scout approached my Grandson’s father who is also his Teams coach saying they wanted him to join Cardiff Cities Academy. The scout was apparently taken back when my son in law told him that he was too young at 7years of age and to come back in two years if they still want him.He wanted him to continue to play with his mates for a couple more years. He didn’t tell my Grandson of the approach because as a Cardiff City season ticket holder he would have been gutted!
However,I agreed that he was too young and as my son in law is a qualified FAW coach who has played as a schoolboy at Wembley and who was an Academy Player himself he knows the disappointment of not making it as a Professional and wants his son to enjoys his first couple of years as a Team Player.
I was told by a scout watching an u9 festival my boy was in that if they aren't in the system by 10 they have no chance as they believe they'll be too far behind the boys they've been coaching for a few years.
thehumblegringo
12-06-19, 07:52
Early professionalism is always a negative for kids (say under 14) and this is definitely a factor that coaches and parents don't appreciate enough.
In my opinion kids are far too often treated like commodities in academies and human side of the clubs decision making is lost as the coaches get hardened in the process.
However there has been great efforts by some academies to change this along with the DNA programme and incorporate things like street football and bring the fun back into for the children.
My lad plays and loves it. Will he be a professional footballer? The chances are NO.
But what would be the alternative? Gone are the days where kids come home and are out with their friends playing football or on their bikes. He'd probably spend the majority of his time on the xbox playing fortnite or on his phone!
Like Mozzer said, the differences between the academies and the development system is chalk and cheese. The development system is largely a cash cow for clubs and it often gives parents and children a false impression that they're in the "academy".
There is definitely an ethics issue regarding an 8 year old boy being 'released' and I believe that clubs should be forced to show a greater duty of care in their recruitment process rather bringing loads of kids in before starting the deselection process!
A parents duty of care comes in choosing an academy with a good environment for a child to thrive as a person as well as a footballer and remaining grounded.
If in a good environment a kid will prosper socially, keep fit, learn discipline and inevitably get better at football.
I see qccfc point regarding multi sports and have read a bit of Epstein's work in this but I would argue this is largely unrealistic (at least where I'm from)
Granted, kids can pay rugby, football, boxing, MMA or gymnastics etc but it would be night on impossible to do more than one of these at the same time an realistically be picked to play as coaches would want commitment.
Early professionalism is always a negative for kids (say under 14) and this is definitely a factor that coaches and parents don't appreciate enough.
In my opinion kids are far too often treated like commodities in academies and human side of the clubs decision making is lost as the coaches get hardened in the process.
However there has been great efforts by some academies to change this along with the DNA programme and incorporate things like street football and bring the fun back into for the children.
My lad plays and loves it. Will he be a professional footballer? The chances are NO.
But what would be the alternative? Gone are the days where kids come home and are out with their friends playing football or on their bikes. He'd probably spend the majority of his time on the xbox playing fortnite or on his phone!
Like Mozzer said, the differences between the academies and the development system is chalk and cheese. The development system is largely a cash cow for clubs and it often gives parents and children a false impression that they're in the "academy".
There is definitely an ethics issue regarding an 8 year old boy being 'released' and I believe that clubs should be forced to show a greater duty of care in their recruitment process rather bringing loads of kids in before starting the deselection process!
A parents duty of care comes in choosing an academy with a good environment for a child to thrive as a person as well as a footballer and remaining grounded.
If in a good environment a kid will prosper socially, keep fit, learn discipline and inevitably get better at football.
I see qccfc point regarding multi sports and have read a bit of Epstein's work in this but I would argue this is largely unrealistic (at least where I'm from)
Granted, kids can pay rugby, football, boxing, MMA or gymnastics etc but it would be night on impossible to do more than one of these at the same time an realistically be picked to play as coaches would want commitment.
My work within coaching I am constantly being told that, within coaching its a more realistic aim to produce someone who will be a key member within your club than an elite athlete, the majority of coaches within South Wales will never deal with the development of an elite athlete.
Within RCT and with RCT sports and other organisations there are more opportunities for sports than there has been for any other period in my life. My attitude is with my kids is for them to experience whatever sport they like, even if that is then a sport i dislike or have no interest in.
As a season ticket holder at Cardiff i would love to see my son playing for Cardiff City, however my attitude to not exposing him to either the development centers or Academies are more than likely hindering his chances, with a preference to finding a sport he enjoys and being an important member in whatever sporting club he ends up at.
thehumblegringo
12-06-19, 08:35
My work within coaching I am constantly being told that, within coaching its a more realistic aim to produce someone who will be a key member within your club than an elite athlete, the majority of coaches within South Wales will never deal with the development of an elite athlete.
Within RCT and with RCT sports and other organisations there are more opportunities for sports than there has been for any other period in my life. My attitude is with my kids is for them to experience whatever sport they like, even if that is then a sport i dislike or have no interest in.
As a season ticket holder at Cardiff i would love to see my son playing for Cardiff City, however my attitude to not exposing him to either the development centers or Academies are more than likely hindering his chances, with a preference to finding a sport he enjoys and being an important member in whatever sporting club he ends up at.
But what if he started playing for example, rugby and was really enjoying it. Would you pull him out of rugby to say something else?
My son always gravitated towards football, possibly cos it was always on the TV in my house so it was a natural progression.
I do make sure he can swim, ride a bike, play table tennis, go out with his mate etc but time is restricted by the amount of football he plays.
The same was the case with my other lad and rugby. If he gravitated to one sport it is natural that he would play that more.
It's the close season now and I've told him not to play football for a few weeks but he takes his ball everywhere he goes.
Don Corleone
12-06-19, 08:37
If you take all the kids who pass through clubs football academies it’s a lot less than 1% who make it, more like 0.1%
But what if he started playing for example, rugby and was really enjoying it. Would you pull him out of rugby to say something else?
My son always gravitated towards football, possibly cos it was always on the TV in my house so it was a natural progression.
I do make sure he can swim, ride a bike, play table tennis, go out with his mate etc but time is restricted by the amount of football he plays.
The same was the case with my other lad and rugby. If he gravitated to one sport it is natural that he would play that more.
It's the close season now and I've told him not to play football for a few weeks but he takes his ball everywhere he goes.
I would encourage him to play in any sports that he naturally gravitates to. If he walks through the door and says i want to try x (i look for a local x club).
At the moment i'm staying away from development centers and football club branded events in favor of local clubs.
There is a time for specialising in sports i dont believe U7s is that time.
the other bob wilson
12-06-19, 10:05
You see so many people on here saying that this messageboard has gone to the dogs these days, but I would like to thank those with more knowledge on the subject than me whose contributions have made this such an informative and interesting thread :thumbup:.
Reading it, I find myself thinking back to my youth when I was in one of the first years in school that did not have to take the eleven plus , an exam which could have a profound impact on how the rest of your life would turn out.
Back in the 60s, there was a political debate as to whether eleven was too young an age to be taking what might be a life defining exam and I only missed out on doing so because a party that believed it was had been elected to replace one that believed it wasn't. My own feeling has always been that it is much too young an age to give children, and their parents, the task of undertaking something which might define their whole life.
Perhaps my beliefs are out of touch with how the modern day ten year old and their young parents think and they would embrace and accept the challenge of such an important task to undertake before they are even a teenager, but I can't help thinking that it has to be dangerous for any child to, possibly, be thinking of themselves as a failure at the age of eleven, so it has to follow that this probably applies even more so when that child is eight.
If you take all the kids who pass through clubs football academies it’s a lot less than 1% who make it, more like 0.1%
According to this report from 2017
https://www.businessinsider.com/michael-calvin-shocking-statistic-why-children-football-academies-will-never-succeed-soccer-sport-2017-6?IR=T
it's 0.5% of all youngsters who get taken on by Academies from the age of 9 that go on to make a living from the game. Also, only 180 of the 1.5m lads playing organised youth football at any one time will make it as a Premier League pro - 0.012%.
The meteorite comparison doesn't work (the odds there are around 1 in 1.6 million) but they are still interesting stats. Surely the answer for Academies is to employ Wales-Bales as a talent spotter, the success rating would then go to 100% immediately.
Is it easy to spot if a 7 year old is a good footballer? Or is it just pick anyoneand hope for the best?
I coach kids football and in my opinion (and the other coaches I work with) the answer is no. Sure you'll get kids who score more at that age etc but its almost always the bigger, stronger ones, you don't see any real difference between them in football ability until they're a couple of years older
the other bob wilson
13-06-19, 11:21
I coach kids football and in my opinion (and the other coaches I work with) the answer is no. Sure you'll get kids who score more at that age etc but its almost always the bigger, stronger ones, you don't see any real difference between them in football ability until they're a couple of years older
The very good point was also made that children born in September of a school year are traditionally at an advantage over their class mates who are born in, say, June and I would say this advantage is an even bigger one when you are talking about seven year olds.
The very good point was also made that children born in September of a school year are traditionally at an advantage over their class mates who are born in, say, June and I would say this advantage is an even bigger one when you are talking about seven year olds.
More pro footballers have birthdays between September and December than June to august by a massive amount. There is data about that somewhere
LeningradCowboy
13-06-19, 11:59
More pro footballers have birthdays between September and December than June to august by a massive amount. There is data about that somewhere
https://i.redd.it/5jabjp1s3xk01.png
The very good point was also made that children born in September of a school year are traditionally at an advantage over their class mates who are born in, say, June and I would say this advantage is an even bigger one when you are talking about seven year olds.
Oh its definitely true at that age, the physical difference can be huge but the actual technical ability is roughly the same
As a result the older, stronger boys are picked up only to be spat back out of the system in a few years time
I know its purely anecdotal evidence but a few boys in my year at school were at academies from a young age, none of them are still at pro clubs and I think the only one still in football is in the reserves at Barry. Another boy wasn't at an academy until he was in his teens and was named in the most recent Wales U21 squad and has been linked with moves abroad
Anecdotal I know, but it does strengthen my belief that picking up kids at 7 isn't worth it/a good policy
https://i.redd.it/5jabjp1s3xk01.png
Thanks for that! My post was a bit out (Sep to Dec = 4, Jun to Aug = 3).
But that shows the first five months is way higher than the second seven months. And over twice as many in September than August.
But, have any of them been spotted by “WALES BALES” :hehe::hehe::hehe:
thehumblegringo
13-06-19, 13:01
The very good point was also made that children born in September of a school year are traditionally at an advantage over their class mates who are born in, say, June and I would say this advantage is an even bigger one when you are talking about seven year olds.
Whilst that it is true it is definitely addressed in recent years
I think the smaller kids have Barcelona to thank for clubs looking for more technical players.
There is also the issue of how the European and international tournaments are run. The ages aren't selected in line with our school system but its selected on year of birth (January - December)
From what I've witnessed, many of the kids who are the better players at 8 or 9 have remained the better players at 14 or 15 (though there are exceptions).
I think keeping it FUN is paramount for children u14.
If you lose the fun factor then you'll inevitably lose the kid.
Pedro de la Rosa
13-06-19, 13:32
I think keeping it FUN is paramount for children u14.
If you lose the fun factor then you'll inevitably lose the kid.
Listened to Undr the Cosh, and they were talking about an u11 drill, with cones and poles etc of a current PL manager. He wouldn't say but he's clearly old school. He said, "when you were 11 what did you want to do? Drop your bag and run to the park and play. While I'm here, I never want to see a session like that again. All they should be doing is playing games and making decisions for themselves". I've got to say, I don't disagree. Although small sided games where you get more touches wouldn't be a bad thing! I played out wide and really disliked it when I was younger as I wouldn't get the ball, and I wanted to get wide and put crosses in so if I came in that, I couldn't do that!
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