Why is this happening?

[the other bob wilson]

All down to austerity or is there something else at play?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-48938509

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/mar/07/life-expectancy-slumps-by-five-months

[Wales-Bales]

Bad drugs? Looking on the map Estonia, Sweden, Norway and Scotland are all connected by sea, so setting up a smuggling route would be relatively straight forward.

[RonnieBird]

Surely everywhere is connected by sea ?

[Wales-Bales]

Surely everywhere is connected by sea ?
I meant convenient routes, check the map, they are all next to each other :wink:

[life on mars]

All down to austerity or is there something else at play?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-48938509

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/mar/07/life-expectancy-slumps-by-five-months

I dont think you pin everything at austerity it's such an easy out , I here Sadiq Khan saying that in relation to knife crime,and he has the ability to divert other funds to other areas ,wonder why he doesnt ?? .

Scotland spend a lot of its develoved funds on social services, and other such key areas and still they suffer.

My gut feeling is drugs are the main player in knife crime and what's happening in Scotland ,you see drugs now openly used in modern social life it's almost trivialised now .

For me high society cocaine users play as big a roll in knife crime than reduced police numbers .

To be fair Scotland and its coastline has always been a haven for drugs in particular the big cities of Glasgow, Edinbourgh and Aberdeen (as a port ) perhaps its it's more accountable as a statistic , and effectively reported on.

Let's be fair for decades this Cities have harboured some tough gangs and criminals who may have in the past concentrated on different revenue streams ,now drugs is the better earner .

[Eric Cartman]

All down to austerity or is there something else at play?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-48938509

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/mar/07/life-expectancy-slumps-by-five-months

In an unequal society some people have **** all going for them. Austerity means less money in play to give people a leg up (usually they are given a kick off the ladder instead and yes this country voted for that approach!). Add in mental health problems and unmanageable debt (which impairs decision making) and you have yourself a nice little warm Petri dish to grow drug addicts in.

[RonnieBird]

I meant convenient routes, check the map, they are all next to each other :wink:


I already saw the map so I know where these places are. In fact there was a chap in the nineteenth century , ( Irish name but can't remember it off hand), who planned a set of free trade ports in all these places which would be linked.
You're quite right though that smuggling drugs into Scroteland is a piece of cake because you can land a boat at any one of hundreds of Orkney and Shetland islands without going through customs providing you arrive at night. After that you're in the UK and you can take it on anywhere you like.

[the other bob wilson]

I see every one is concentrating solely on the Scottish drugs deaths increase, but I did post another link and my original question was asked from the perspective of why are these things happening and are they related? I appreciate that it's awkward when using one set of figures relating to Scotland and another concerning England and Wales, but, having done some more checking, here are two BBC stories which show that the life expectancy trend in England and Wales is being repeated north of the border.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-45638646

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-47161342

Here are two trends which you would expect not to be happening given the sort of country and society we claim to be and, yet within this decade, they have started to and, seemingly, the situation is getting worse.

I asked are the two related? Well, given that they are both happening at the same time, I tend to feel they are. As for why, I suppose there might be some undiscovered as yet medical reason behind it, but the obvious answer that comes through to me is the increase of poverty levels brought on by a decade of austerity - even if there is a medical reason for it as mentioned earlier, austerity could still be a factor in terms of cuts in research and health funding etc.

I accept that some people are going to think that I'm bound to come to the conclusion I have because of my politics, but I'm genuinely interested to hear of possible alternative causes.

[Organ Morgan.]

I notice 6 of the bottom 7 countries for drug-related deaths at the BBC link in the opening post are East European. The one which isn't, Portugal, has a more liberated approach which has proved wildly successful. Bottom of all is Romania. It's definitely the poorest too and a certainty their citizens have less disposable income and suffer greater levels of deprivation than Scotland's population. I think we can safely discount the possibility of taking solace in mind-altering substances as relief from misery to explain why one's top and the other is bottom. Perhaps it's cultural reasons or that heroin and the like is less easily available. Another possibility is Scots, for whatever reasons, have a difficult to pinpoint weakness for prohibited drugs (and for grog too) compared to the rest of the UK.

[the other bob wilson]

I notice 6 of the bottom 7 countries for drug-related deaths at the BBC link in the opening post are East European. The one which isn't, Portugal, has a more liberated approach which has proved wildly successful. Bottom of all is Romania. It's definitely the poorest too and a certainty their citizens have less disposable income and suffer greater levels of deprivation than Scotland's population. I think we can safely discount the possibility of taking solace in mind-altering substances as relief from misery to explain why one's top and the other is bottom. Perhaps it's cultural reasons or that heroin and the like is less easily available. Another possibility is Scots, for whatever reasons, have a difficult to pinpoint weakness for prohibited drugs (and for grog too) compared to the rest of the UK.

I noticed that as well and I agree that it is something that does suggest that poverty alone is not the cause of these worrying trends in this country - here's another life expectancy story from last year which asks plenty of questions about the UK;-

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/985567/deaths-life-expectancy-enquiry-research-department-for-health

[Eric Cartman]

I notice 6 of the bottom 7 countries for drug-related deaths at the BBC link in the opening post are East European. The one which isn't, Portugal, has a more liberated approach which has proved wildly successful. Bottom of all is Romania. It's definitely the poorest too and a certainty their citizens have less disposable income and suffer greater levels of deprivation than Scotland's population. I think we can safely discount the possibility of taking solace in mind-altering substances as relief from misery to explain why one's top and the other is bottom. Perhaps it's cultural reasons or that heroin and the like is less easily available. Another possibility is Scots, for whatever reasons, have a difficult to pinpoint weakness for prohibited drugs (and for grog too) compared to the rest of the UK.

Wasn't really talking about poverty itself, clearly we are well off in the context of the rest of the world and also historically. More referring to the levels of wealth/income income inequality, personal debt and the effect this has on mental health.

[RonnieBird]

I notice 6 of the bottom 7 countries for drug-related deaths at the BBC link in the opening post are East European. The one which isn't, Portugal, has a more liberated approach which has proved wildly successful. Bottom of all is Romania. It's definitely the poorest too and a certainty their citizens have less disposable income and suffer greater levels of deprivation than Scotland's population. I think we can safely discount the possibility of taking solace in mind-altering substances as relief from misery to explain why one's top and the other is bottom. Perhaps it's cultural reasons or that heroin and the like is less easily available. Another possibility is Scots, for whatever reasons, have a difficult to pinpoint weakness for prohibited drugs (and for grog too) compared to the rest of the UK.


Well I find that I increasingly have to employ East Europeans for the very reason that they're not as drug infested as young English blokes. It's hard to find anyone in the native population who's not at it to some degree. Therefore I don't think it's to do with conditions in their countries as much as the fact that they're from a Christian country and retain some of the values which made us successful in the past .
I also notice that those who speak English the least are the best because they don't get infected by the media so much.
There's also the thing that they come from countries where they've suffered the effects of socialism being practised for a few generations and so they understand how evil it is and reject it's various destructive dogmas .

[Eric Cartman]

Well I find that I increasingly have to employ East Europeans for the very reason that they're not as drug infested as young English blokes. It's hard to find anyone in the native population who's not at it to some degree. Therefore I don't think it's to do with conditions in their countries as much as the fact that they're from a Christian country and retain some of the values which made us successful in the past .
I also notice that those who speak English the least are the best because they don't get infected by the media so much.
There's also the thing that they come from countries where they've suffered the effects of socialism being practised for a few generations and so they understand how evil it is and reject it's various destructive dogmas .

What an elaborate dream

[life on mars]

What about self respect , as you stand over someone and then stab them 18 times , its not all about mental health or austerity , its about moral fiber and responsibility , as well ,and bloody decent parenting , its not as if they are not given free health and education and even religion is free .

I think there is a real danger of just making excuse after excuse for them ,and providing them with a cradle to sit in and not do anything themselves .

[Eric Cartman]

What about self respect , as you stand over someone and then stab them 18 times , its not all about mental health or austerity , its about moral fiber and responsibility , as well ,and bloody decent parenting , its not as if they are not given free health and education and even religion is free .

I think there is a real danger of just making excuse after excuse for them ,and providing them with a cradle to sit in and not do anything themselves .

What is your solution to increase their moral fibre?

[life on mars]

What is your solution to increase their moral fibre?

Stop treating them as victims .

[Eric Cartman]

Stop treating them as victims .

Tell them off for being bad?

Do you believe in addiction?

[Organ Morgan.]

I'd go down a draconian path to influence behaviour so that potential future crims would choose a different path because they'd fear the consequences of their criminality to a much greater degree than they do presently. First up would be to make the prison experience for convicted felons akin to what it was in the early Victorian era which would elbow the concept of rehabilitation to concentrate on punishment. That would include all single cells, no association with one another and absolute silence at all times. There'd me no work activities other than that of mindless grind designed to break their spirit... shovelling tons of sand back and forth from A to B for 8 hours per day and the like. Only those of State Pension age and others adjudged unfit by a doctor would be excused.

Introduce whole life sentences for all murderers and minimum term tariffs for a long and wide variety of serious offences. That way a home burglar, for example, with 5 years to serve had better behave impeccably lest he'd have no prospect of release after serving the minimum. Each establishment would have a dedicated wing for remand inmates where they'd have to comply with a far more relaxed regime. Mental defectives would be placed in secure hospitals as they are today.

A far cheaper option would be the Saudi route. Murder, peddle drugs or commit rape there and it's goodnight Vienna. Thieves lose a hand. Unsurprisingly those crimes are ultra rare.

[Eric Cartman]

Are we still talking about life expectancy and deaths caused by drug addiction here?

[the other bob wilson]

Are we still talking about life expectancy and deaths caused by drug addiction here?

Nah, I'm not sure we ever were.

[Eric Cartman]

Nah, I'm not sure we ever were.

Cut off their arms I say

[life on mars]

They are cold calculated youngsters, who are very switched on criminals, who kill for drugs or protection. A lot of the crime committed is clever pre meditated stuff .

I'm sure a few loan attacks are via vulnerable people with mental social care issues.

The majority are calculated young criminals, and you would not like to know them , or rub up against them in any shape or form.

Yes some have been exploited .

What we mustn't do is think or blame society for all evil acts, they were probaly always going to be criminals its just society has created this drug filled lousy demand and supply world , that has allowed them to fester in .

[Eric Cartman]

They are cold calculated youngsters, who are very switched on criminals, who kill for drugs or protection. A lot of the crime committed is clever pre meditated stuff .

I'm sure a few loan attacks are via vulnerable people with mental social care issues.

The majority are calculated young criminals, and you would not like to know them , or rub up against them in any shape or form.

Yes some have been exploited .

What we mustn't do is think or blame society for all evil acts, they were probaly always going to be criminals its just society has created this drug filled lousy demand and supply world , that has allowed them to fester in .

Who/What are you talking about? The links in the OP are about deaths from drug addiction and a reduction in life expectancy.

[life on mars]

Who/What are you talking about? The links in the OP are about deaths from drug addiction and a reduction in life expectancy.

Phew ,I got carried away then , yeh my advise don't take drugs or buy them from criminals , who kill people over the right to sell them .

[the other bob wilson]

Well, four days after I started this thread, a thank you to Organ Morgan for giving his take on the links I posted and to Eric for trying to keep the thread on topic. I just think it should be a huge concern and a cause of debate at the highest levels, that the death from drugs rate in a part of our country is outrageously high and that we are the only country in Europe where life expectancy is declining.

[Gofer Blue]

If people didn't take illicit drugs then the whole drug "scene" with all its associated issues would disappear. Hence we have to ask, why do people take these illicit drugs in the first place? I am no expert but it seems to me there are three types of drug user:

1. Those who dabble occasionally to get the "high" but that's it.
2. Folk from group 1 who go on to become physically addicted (do all folk from group 1 inevitably end up in group 2, I don't know?)
3. Those who take them in order to slip into oblivion to escape the hopelessness of their situation.

I don't have any sympathy for Group 1 as the risks are very well known now, so there is no excuse (akin to smoking). So eliminating Group 1 would eliminate Group 2. Group 3 folk are in a different category and the only way here is to help them get back on their feet and improve their worth/self-esteem. Sounds simple but as there may be a myriad of factors at play, not easy.